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Old 06-28-2011   #1
TimeKiller
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Default Pros/Cons: Vonta Leach

Pros:
-Hellacious attitude on the field
-Respected by his teammates
-Respected by his opponents
-Can blow a hole open through a brick wall
Cons:
-Wants , maybe unreasonably so
-Not a passing threat
-Not a running threat
-As he ages, can he continue to be "The Hammer" without seriously injuring himself?

So, do you do it?

I do. For one reason. A "fullhouse" package.

Have him and James Casey set up front, Arian Foster behind him. WTF would a defense do with that while still trying to cover Andre Johnson and Owen Daniels? Casey and Foster can both catch and run outta the backfield, Casey and Leach looking for scalps before getting to the leading rusher sounds like a treat to defend. If you double AJ you leave Daniels, Foster (running or catching) and Casey lots of space to work with. If you load up to stop the rush you leave AJ basically open with an easy set to max protect with.
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Old 06-28-2011   #2
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Default Re: Pros/Cons: Vonta Leach

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimeKiller View Post
Pros:
-Hellacious attitude on the field
-Respected by his teammates
-Respected by his opponents
-Can blow a hole open through a brick wall
Cons:
-Wants , maybe unreasonably so
-Not a passing threat
-Not a running threat
-As he ages, can he continue to be "The Hammer" without seriously injuring himself?

So, do you do it?

I do. For one reason. A "fullhouse" package.

Have him and James Casey set up front, Arian Foster behind him. WTF would a defense do with that while still trying to cover Andre Johnson and Owen Daniels? Casey and Foster can both catch and run outta the backfield, Casey and Leach looking for scalps before getting to the leading rusher sounds like a treat to defend. If you double AJ you leave Daniels, Foster (running or catching) and Casey lots of space to work with. If you load up to stop the rush you leave AJ basically open with an easy set to max protect with.
The answer is "do it". First, the full house package, I don't remember ever seeing the Texans use that but maybe when Carr was getting killed or in Matt's first year? I don't want it as 1) we have been so successful without using 3 RBs 2) it removes a WR from field. Yes, it is good to have a great run game but we are so strong with WRs & TEs let's not weaken it.

James Casey? I guess he is alright but he has not beaten anyone out at any of the 19 positions (sarcasm) he was reported to play when drafted. So far, he is a back up.

Leach would be perfect if he could catch and I think he can better than Kubiak evidently does. He is 29 and has heavy work load years behind him but seems to be getting better. He earned his next deal & I expect McNair to take care of him. He and his teammates understand each other's moves. Let's not start over.
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Old 06-28-2011   #3
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Default Re: Pros/Cons: Vonta Leach

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimeKiller View Post
Pros:
-Hellacious attitude on the field
-Respected by his teammates
-Respected by his opponents
-Can blow a hole open through a brick wall
Cons:
-Wants , maybe unreasonably so
-Not a passing threat
-Not a running threat
-As he ages, can he continue to be "The Hammer" without seriously injuring himself?

So, do you do it?

I do. For one reason. A "fullhouse" package.

Have him and James Casey set up front, Arian Foster behind him. WTF would a defense do with that while still trying to cover Andre Johnson and Owen Daniels? Casey and Foster can both catch and run outta the backfield, Casey and Leach looking for scalps before getting to the leading rusher sounds like a treat to defend. If you double AJ you leave Daniels, Foster (running or catching) and Casey lots of space to work with. If you load up to stop the rush you leave AJ basically open with an easy set to max protect with.
I'm with you. Leach was an huge part of Arian's success last year. Casey has not played Fullback in this capacity. If the plan for the future is to use Casey as they use Leach-who better to learn from. This would also take care of the "age" thing.

And as for the money "con", is he not worth the $$ to help provide room for the #1 Back in the game last year??
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Old 06-28-2011   #4
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Default Re: Pros/Cons: Vonta Leach

I think the money aspect is way overblown unless the CBA comes down with a hard salary cap of about $120m - $125m. Even then, I think even a top FB salary might barely barely be around what Kevin Walter makes.
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Old 06-28-2011   #5
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Default Re: Pros/Cons: Vonta Leach

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimeKiller View Post
Pros:
-Hellacious attitude on the field
-Respected by his teammates
-Respected by his opponents
-Can blow a hole open through a brick wall
Cons:
-Wants , maybe unreasonably so
-Not a passing threat
-Not a running threat
-As he ages, can he continue to be "The Hammer" without seriously injuring himself?
I think you should have listed that in the PRO section. Chris Brown wasn't a passing threat either, as it turned out.
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Old 06-28-2011   #6
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Default Re: Pros/Cons: Vonta Leach

He's in for a rude awakening. No one is going to pay a FB the money he wants.
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Old 06-28-2011   #7
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Default Re: Pros/Cons: Vonta Leach

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allstar View Post
He's in for a rude awakening. No one is going to pay a FB the money he wants.
Quote:
The Eagles have agreed to terms with FB Leonard Weaver on a three-year deal worth $11 million (and could be valued at $12 million with incentives) and includes $6.5 million guaranteed, according to league sources.
Even if you give Leach just a dollar or two more than that contract it's not exactly going to completely hamstring the team into not being able to pay other players. That's pretty much nothing in terms of NFL contracts for almost any starter.
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Old 06-28-2011   #8
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Default Re: Pros/Cons: Vonta Leach

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allstar View Post
He's in for a rude awakening. No one is going to pay a FB the money he wants.
Yeah but we're the first bridge to burn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eriadoc View Post
I think you should have listed that in the PRO section. Chris Brown wasn't a passing threat either, as it turned out.
I meant to say "clever"....

Quote:
Originally Posted by b0ng View Post
I think the money aspect is way overblown unless the CBA comes down with a hard salary cap of about $120m - $125m. Even then, I think even a top FB salary might barely barely be around what Kevin Walter makes.
Well with this team the only thing that gets . . . blown is money aspects. VL will be our big F/A signing so may as well take into account all that is accountable....oh shit I shouldn't have used that word...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas T View Post
And as for the money "con", is he not worth the $$ to help provide room for the #1 Back in the game last year??
It's not about is he worth the money LAST year...it's will he be worth it NEXT year. He already got paid for last year and I know he wants more because of the probowl selection/other successes but at the same time it's not like paying him up for that garauntees anything, especially not a repeat performance. I love me some VL, just like everyone but I think it bears questioning whether he will continue the high level of play or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by badboy View Post
The answer is "do it". First, the full house package, I don't remember ever seeing the Texans use that but maybe when Carr was getting killed or in Matt's first year? I don't want it as 1) we have been so successful without using 3 RBs 2) it removes a WR from field. Yes, it is good to have a great run game but we are so strong with WRs & TEs let's not weaken it.
Strong? Check it:
WR- AJ still on the field, Walter gets a down off the field but he's a possession type WR and everyone behind him either sucks or hasn't played significant roles.
TE- OD coming back from yet another knee surgery (and I don't buy last year as a return of any sort) Dreesen is a good but not great team player aaannnnnd after that.....

Yeah. Strength is kind of WAY over selling it. We have a reeeeeally good WR and a really good QB.
Quote:
James Casey? I guess he is alright but he has not beaten anyone out at any of the 19 positions (sarcasm) he was reported to play when drafted. So far, he is a back up.
Who else would you use? Casey's skill set is what makes the full house package a reality instead of a Kyle Shananahahanahan crayon drawing.
Quote:
Leach would be perfect if he could catch and I think he can better than Kubiak evidently does. He is 29 and has heavy work load years behind him but seems to be getting better. He earned his next deal & I expect McNair to take care of him. He and his teammates understand each other's moves. Let's not start over.
Agreed there, with everything but Leach's hands. The "Hammer" applies to his game so very, very well.
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Old 06-28-2011   #9
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Default Re: Pros/Cons: Vonta Leach

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimeKiller View Post
Yeah but we're the first bridge to burn.

I meant to say "clever"....

Well with this team the only thing that gets . . . blown is money aspects. VL will be our big F/A signing so may as well take into account all that is accountable....oh shit I shouldn't have used that word...


It's not about is he worth the money LAST year...it's will he be worth it NEXT year. He already got paid for last year and I know he wants more because of the probowl selection/other successes but at the same time it's not like paying him up for that garauntees anything, especially not a repeat performance. I love me some VL, just like everyone but I think it bears questioning whether he will continue the high level of play or not.


Strong? Check it:
WR- AJ still on the field, Walter gets a down off the field but he's a possession type WR and everyone behind him either sucks or hasn't played significant roles.
TE- OD coming back from yet another knee surgery (and I don't buy last year as a return of any sort) Dreesen is a good but not great team player aaannnnnd after that.....

Yeah. Strength is kind of WAY over selling it. We have a reeeeeally good WR and a really good QB.

Who else would you use? Casey's skill set is what makes the full house package a reality instead of a Kyle Shananahahanahan crayon drawing.


Agreed there, with everything but Leach's hands. The "Hammer" applies to his game so very, very well.
Cool debate, remind me again how many plays at Fb Casey has with Texans?

OD looked very good after injury return & Dreesen impressed all with his very good play. OD was not missed. JJ was no star but did good also. You are the only I have seen under selling the TE/WR corps. Point two, WR was completed ignored in draft. As I said, I would not use the "full house" set so Casey(or anyone else) is not a concern.

Also your comments about Leach expecting more $ in new deal based upon last year's probowl season, isn't that exactly what all players do?
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Old 06-28-2011   #10
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Default Re: Pros/Cons: Vonta Leach

Leach is going to want something a little more than what Leonard Weaver got.

Quote:
Philly.com and other sources have reported the deal is worth $11 million, $6.5 million of it guaranteed.
That's over 3 years, which works out to 3.66 million per year avg. So nearly his first two years are guaranteed and the team could cut him in the third if he's not worth it. I think Leach will be angling for ~4 million a year over 4 years with 10 mill guaranteed.
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Old 06-28-2011   #11
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Default Re: Pros/Cons: Vonta Leach

Quote:
Originally Posted by b0ng View Post
Quote:
The Eagles have agreed to terms with FB Leonard Weaver on a three-year deal worth $11 million (and could be valued at $12 million with incentives) and includes $6.5 million guaranteed, according to league sources.
Even if you give Leach just a dollar or two more than that contract it's not exactly going to completely hamstring the team into not being able to pay other players. That's pretty much nothing in terms of NFL contracts for almost any starter.
Weaver is more of a pass-catching FB, those are the type of guys that get more money.
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Old 06-28-2011   #12
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Default Re: Pros/Cons: Vonta Leach

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Originally Posted by badboy View Post
Cool debate, remind me again how many plays at Fb Casey has with Texans? As many chances as the Texans have given him to show himself. Zero.

OD looked very good after injury return & Dreesen impressed all with his very good play. OD was not missed. JJ was no star but did good also. You are the only I have seen under selling the TE/WR corps. Point two, WR was completed ignored in draft. As I said, I would not use the "full house" set so Casey(or anyone else) is not a concern.Sure, OD looked good in garbage time. Let's see how long those fragile wheels hold up. He wasn't missed because the chain mover turned out to be a RB, Foster. Point two, is baloney because the Texans had an obvious need for lotsnlots of defense. I don't think I'm under selling the passing game by saying it's a whooooooole lot of Matt Schaub and Andre Johnson.

Also your comments about Leach expecting more $ in new deal based upon last year's probowl season, isn't that exactly what all players do?
Yeah....................so? He got paid for last year. You pay him 4 mil a year now you better set the expectation at 4 time probowler.
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Old 06-29-2011   #13
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Would be nice to have him, but I don't think he is irreplaceable. I think Casey helps with the run game too. He is not as big and strong as vonta, but he is quicker and more athletic and can get up on lbs quicker. I also think he is an effective enough blocker.

He's more versatile and can give us some flexibility. He can line up at fb and motion out to the slot or move up to the line as a second te. He will also keep lbs honest because of his ability to make plays on play action.

I'd rather have vonta back but I don't think it's the end of the world if he isn't. I think that our offense could adjust and become better in other aspects.
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Old 06-29-2011   #14
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Default Re: Pros/Cons: Vonta Leach

Pros/Cons: James Casey as a FB

Pros:
-More athletic, matchup problems for LB covering him
-Has good hands
-Willing, team player
-Can catch and run effectively
-Cheap and under contract
Cons:
-How effective is he blocking as a FB?
-Not an enforcer like Leach
-Doesn't have the respect Leach does from teammates or opponents

Can JC be the extra OLmen the way VL is AND be a true pass catching threat out of the backfield? We shall see.
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Old 06-29-2011   #15
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Default Re: Pros/Cons: Vonta Leach

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Originally Posted by TimeKiller View Post
Pros/Cons: James Casey as a FB

Pros:
-More athletic, matchup problems for LB covering him
-Has good hands
-Willing, team player
-Can catch and run effectively
-Cheap and under contract
Cons:
-How effective is he blocking as a FB?
-Not an enforcer like Leach
-Doesn't have the respect Leach does from teammates or opponents

Can JC be the extra OLmen the way VL is AND be a true pass catching threat out of the backfield? We shall see.
Those are all good and your questions are also valid. This is why I'm good with signing Vonta-let him instruct the young man. I'm confident that he's got enough gas in him for another couple of years. Let him instruct this year then start letting Casey play more and more frequently next year (if he can play the part).
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Old 06-30-2011   #16
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Default Re: Pros/Cons: Vonta Leach

I don't think $4 mil a year is completely unreasonable, but $10 mil guaranteed is. It would be very hard to replace his lockerroom presence and team leadership on a team sorely lacking both.
Not having been to a Texans TC, how often do they practice FB passes? It seems that VL is asked to catch the ball so infrequently that, unless they practice it often, we don't really know how good/bad a receiver he is. I've seen him make some nice catches and drop some. It might be like asking a batter to face Nolan Ryan w/o going to the cages before the game.
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Old 06-30-2011   #17
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Default Re: Pros/Cons: Vonta Leach

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Originally Posted by TimeKiller View Post
-Not an enforcer like Leach
Leach brings a physicality the Texans otherwise lack. Across the board. Really, the Texans need more players like Leach. Being tough and physical wins football games. That's something I'm not sure Kubiak and Smith have ever understood.
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Old 07-01-2011   #18
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Default Re: Pros/Cons: Vonta Leach

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Leach brings a physicality the Texans otherwise lack. Across the board. Really, the Texans need more players like Leach. Being tough and physical wins football games. That's something I'm not sure Kubiak and Smith have ever understood.
They SHOULD. Denver has won a TON of games by being more physical than their opponents. The running game AND safety play show that. See also Steve Atwater and Terrel Davis. And several others.
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Old 07-01-2011   #19
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Default Re: Pros/Cons: Vonta Leach

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Originally Posted by Lucky View Post
Leach brings a physicality the Texans otherwise lack. Across the board. Really, the Texans need more players like Leach. Being tough and physical wins football games. That's something I'm not sure Kubiak and Smith have ever understood.


I wouldn't go that far. I think there are quite a few tough guys, especially on offense. I'd throw Winston in that pile, Andre of course but even guys like Walter who is a big, hard nosed blocker from the receiver spot, Dreesen who does dirty work wherever he's asked to, Duane Brown is a big boy and uses it...but nobody tops VL. He raises the toughness meter a few notches all by his onesy. Besides, I meant enforcer as in.....defender's know that if they want to cheap shot our big guns, Schaub, Andre, Foster....they either have to pull some stupid shit mid-play (Innegan's Last Stand) or go through Vonta. And by go through Vonta I mean Vonta going through them play after play after play after play after play after play.......
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Old 07-01-2011   #20
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Default Re: Pros/Cons: Vonta Leach

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Originally Posted by TimeKiller View Post
I wouldn't go that far. I think there are quite a few tough guys, especially on offense. I'd throw Winston in that pile, Andre of course but even guys like Walter who is a big, hard nosed blocker from the receiver spot...
Winston's a finesse blocker. When you're talking about your WRs being some of your tougher players...you know your a finesse team.
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