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Old 04-20-2005   #301
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I agree, but disagree. This draft is one of the deepest as far as players with potential that we have seen in 5 years. True there is a lack of star quality throughout the draft with maybe only 5 or 6 players that would be 1st round picks anyway, but three of the corners in this years draft will be pretty good. I like the trade, from all standpoints, Buchanan is young, fast, aggressive, can return kicks, and has a low cap figure. Those point right there make him worth it. Now will his attitude change or will he be a cancer if he does not get what he wants. But look at it this way a 700,000 cancer is pretty benign and we can trade his *** if we dont like him. GREAT TRADE TEXANS!!!
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Old 04-20-2005   #302
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Just finished the thread. Wow, look at the discussion this trade generated. I like this trade a lot. PB is an explosive playmaker that with Hoke and AG tutelage can become a star.

I'm starting to see a much different defense coming next year. I think Dom is getting ready to "unleash Hell" on other offenses. I picture that scene from Gladiator, and see Peek, Babin, DRob, etc. smacking QBs to the ground. If by chance a pass gets out, then AG, PB, Coleman getting the pick and taking it yard. This is exciting! Trolls can say what they want, next year is gonna be fun.
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Old 04-20-2005   #303
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Texan in Japan let's not get ahead of ourselves, we are still quite unproven, but you are right that PB is a gamebreaker.
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Old 04-20-2005   #304
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Phillip is a play maker he was at the U of Miami and he was when he was a in oakland, but he didn't get along with turner (it happens) He is a great pick up for this team and the texans didn't give up that much considering his talent level. He may not be a very good tackeler but he can KR/PR very well he is good in man to man coverage and hes not a rookie. He is very fast and he will be solid for this team. I am a buffalo bills fan and I would have loved to pick this guy up. Great pick up good job in the front office of the texans. Trust me the office did the right thing. And you can still try and pick up Derrick Johnson if still avial or a WR to pair along side Johnson.. You all are looking to be a much stronger team this year in your D and that should have a lot of teams concerned.
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Old 04-20-2005   #305
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the way i look at it is that the raiders haven't had really good coaches in years...gruden was a good head coach but as far as assistants i think they've come up short for many years...john hoke is one of the best in my mind...it seems like every year we are barely keeping him from getting other jobs around the league or in college...personally i'd like to see hoke as our d. coordinator but that's just me...hoke and glenn can mold this guy into a great corner and glenn's eventual replacement...glenn at 33-34 years of age this season is about the age where you start looking at retirement...and personally i'd rather have his replacement already here instead of hopeing to get the right guy in the draft...another thing to keep in mind is with glenn's age comes his groin injury that seems to be bothering him every once in awhile...last year he seemed ok but the year before he was put on IR because of it...if he went down this year and we didn't have buchanan we'd be in a mess come time to play the colts...now we wouldn't miss a beat
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Old 04-20-2005   #306
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:woot In my viewpoint the Raiders spent a first on Woodson and Buchanon. This should be a top notch pair of CBs . If this is not the case its probably not on the players . Buchanon ran a 4.31 at the combine in 2002 .
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Old 04-20-2005   #307
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Some interesting info from GBN on 2002 draft results...

http://www.gbnreport.com/draftgrades02.htm

Oakland: Bolstered by all those extra picks acquired in the deal with Tampa Bay for the rights to former head coach Jon Gruden, the Raiders led the league in premium picks at 2002 draft. And the Raiders made it pay off with a draft class that looks like it provide a number long-time NFL starters. CB Phil Buchanon, the first of two Raiders' #1 picks, for example, stepped into the starting lineup when Pro Bowler Charles Woodson went out with an injury and was outstanding before being injured himself; Buchanon should combine with Woodson to give the Raiders the NFL's best shutdown CB combo for years to come. And as an added bonus, Buchanon doubled as a top punt returner. Meanwhile, LB Napoleon Harris, the Raiders' other first-round selection, started at MLB since the opening of the season and did not look out of place, finishing fourth on the team with 82 tackles. The Raiders also look they got a couple of keepers in the second round in OT Langston Walker and TE Doug Jolley. Walker was considered to be something of a project when drafted, but the Cal graduate more than held his own is two starts as an emergency injury replacement early in the season. For his part, Jolley really came on late in the season and provided QB Rich Gannon with a reliable outlet target. At the same time, though, the Raiders got almost nothing from players selected in the later rounds. Grade: A

Top 10 defensive rookies # Player Pos Team Rd
1 Julius Peppers DE Carolina 1
2 Roy Williams SS Dallas 1
3 Dwight Freeney DE Indianapolis 1
4 Edward Reed FS Baltimore 1
5 Phil Buchanon CB Oakland 1
6 Coy Wire SS Buffalo 3
7 Derek Ross CB Dallas 3
8 Marques Anderson SS Green Bay 3
9 Napoleon Harris LB Oakland 1
10 Carlos Hall DE Tennessee 7
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Old 04-20-2005   #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny
Our second and third rounds this year will end up with Phillip Buchannon and someone else. We shall see. We are going to end up with 3 players in this 3 round first day draft on Saturday, and we already know one of them.
Vin - I was a Casserly critic before this trade, and this has dione nothing but cement my opinion.

Before this trade happened, I thought Casserly managed his personnel as if he was on the cusp of winning a championship. When you're a young expansion team building quality within your starting 22, you don't draft second and third string QB's and punt snappers imo. You also don't give up 3 quality picks for a late first rounder that 20 plus teams passed on.

You know if you feel like your one player away, "The Window is Open", the ol Reese mantra...then maybe you give away too much for that specific need. But the Texans just aren't there in the cycle yet. Casserly's been impatient...maybe he is feeling the pressure to win now and he's mortgaging the long term.

When you look at the cb movement this off season, with Samari walking for nothing, Surtain unable to garner serious investment, second tier guys like Dyson garnering little interest, and then consider Buchanon's less than consistent play, and woeful attitude, the great depth of CB in this draft...this is a real headshaker for me.

Last edited by CanadianTitansFan; 04-20-2005 at 09:09 AM.
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Old 04-20-2005   #309
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This trade was worth it, He is better than samari rolle better than an injured TY Law and younger and will be better than surtain. The texans are building a great young team and by next year we should know where they stand amoung the nfl. The just need to pick up a good saftey and one more solid LB and a good second rec for AJ. I am telling you the Texans office is doing a good job this offseason and they got a steal for PB
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Old 04-20-2005   #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianTitansFan
When you look at the cb movement this off season, with Samari walking for nothing, Surtain unable to garner serious investment, second tier guys like Dyson garnering little interest, and then consider Buchanon's less than consistent play, and woeful attitude, the great depth of CB in this draft...this is a real headshaker for me.
You would think Titans' fans might have learned something from their recent cap problems, like hellooo, there is one in the NFL. Every team in the league knew the Titans would be dumping all sorts of starters including Rolle due to the cap so why trade for him? Rolle will be 29 when the season begins and just received an $11 mil signing bonus and a contract that will pay $18 mil over his 1st three years. Surtain is 29 vs. 24 and carrying a $5.85 mil cap hit vs. $700k. There is a reason Dyson is garnering little interest. Still scratching your head?
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Old 04-20-2005   #311
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I love this trade! PB is only 24, only has a hit of $700,000 in our cap this year, and with AG as a tutor he can turn out to be amazing. The guy ran a freaking 4.3 40! This is some incredible speed. I cant wait to see the face of Peyton Manning when Harrison, Wayne, and Stokley are all getting shut down by man 2 man coverage while we blitz 7 in his face! Of course we will have Coleman over the top just in case, but if we blitz enough up the middle and pressure him like the Pats, he wont have time to throw.
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Old 04-20-2005   #312
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IMO the trade was a good one. Many of the critics are saying that he was inconsitent at Oakland but I think that was due to a poor front 7. The emphasis on speed at LB and the ability to pressure the QB will drastically improve the play of our secondary.
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Old 04-20-2005   #313
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I agree with Davis37. Keep in mind that the Texans play in the AFC South (with pass-happy teams like INDY, JAX & TEN) so there is a need for 3 and 4 quality CBs because a #3&4 CB will be on the field half the time, not just on 3rd & long situations.

Also, has anyone noticed the salary-cap dumps? The fact that the Texans do not have to pay the signing bonus for PB (just the $700k & 800K base over the next two years), might suggest something else in the near future.

Another thing, if the Secondary can't keep the WRs in check, how is the pass rush going to work?

In the end, I feel that 2nd rd & 3rd rd picks were a bit much, but maybe that was the only way to get a top CB that will only cost $1.5mil against the salary cap over the next two years. I wonder what happens this weekend now!
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Old 04-20-2005   #314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalRaider
I'll need to sleep on this... all I know is that the Chiefs were offering a 4th for Surtain and we just got a 2nd and 3rd for Buchanon.
The reason that the Chiefs can get Surtain for a cheap pick is his salary cap hit. A second reason is age. Surtain has a lot more mileage on him. Surtain might end up being waived (for salary cap reasons) if they cannot trade him anyway. Saban is just trying to get some kind of value for him. Meanwhile, Buchanon has a low rookie contract and is young.
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Old 04-20-2005   #315
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We win on this deal, but i need someone to supply the specific dollars to prove it.

1. drafting is about projecting and potential. So, if you value the 2nd and 3rd round picks, it's because you think that we can get someone with potential. Well, that is exactly what Buchanon brings. Proven physical skills. Playmaker. To say that he is a bust for the rest of his NFL career is crazy. He has not made the immediate impact of a Dunta Robinson, but few do.

2. Let's talk dollars. We know that Buchanon will cost us about $1.5MM for 2 years. That's fact.

--- Someone tell us what the rough cap hit would be for our 2nd and 3rd round pick. I'll be willing to bet a lot of money that it is significantly more than what Buchanon will cost.

--- Further to the point on dollars: the Salary Cap is about opportunity cost. The true analysis of this trade is to compare the 2nd and 3rd round picks with Buchanon and what we can get with the money we saved under the cap.

If someone will plug in the numbers, I think this should end the debate.
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Old 04-20-2005   #316
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Cool

Nevermind. I've been sold on this move.
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Old 04-20-2005   #317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOgre
The reason that the Chiefs can get Surtain for a cheap pick is his salary cap hit. A second reason is age. Surtain has a lot more mileage on him. Surtain might end up being waived (for salary cap reasons) if they cannot trade him anyway. Saban is just trying to get some kind of value for him. Meanwhile, Buchanon has a low rookie contract and is young.
Ogre is absolutley correct also since pb was such a recent draft pick I'm sure Casserly and company scouted him in 2002 and probably rated him higher than any CB who would be available in this draft @ #13. for only a 2nd and 3rd round pick!
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Old 04-20-2005   #318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeMc
I agree with Davis37. Keep in mind that the Texans play in the AFC South (with pass-happy teams like INDY, JAX & TEN) so there is a need for 3 and 4 quality CBs because a #3&4 CB will be on the field half the time, not just on 3rd & long situations.

Also, has anyone noticed the salary-cap dumps? The fact that the Texans do not have to pay the signing bonus for PB (just the $700k & 800K base over the next two years), might suggest something else in the near future.

Another thing, if the Secondary can't keep the WRs in check, how is the pass rush going to work?

In the end, I feel that 2nd rd & 3rd rd picks were a bit much, but maybe that was the only way to get a top CB that will only cost $1.5mil against the salary cap over the next two years. I wonder what happens this weekend now!
Thanks Mike. Some people are saying that we overpayed for PB. The 2nd and 3rd round picks we traded for him are valuable but I think he is worth alot more. His is a young, fast, playmaker, that only costs us 700k and 800k for 2 years... That saves us alot of cap room to make some FA additions.
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Old 04-20-2005   #319
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You have never heard of SHOWTIME ? Phillip was the top corner in his draft and he played at the U of Miami there make Players there (Great football program)
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Old 04-20-2005   #320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yankee_In_TX
I don't really know anything about $ and cents of football.

But my naive little self cannot imagine trading a #2 and a #3 for someone I've never heard of and comes with bad vibes.

someone you've never heard of?? I don't understand fans like you. You obviously don't pay attention to football: college or pro. It's safe to say you are not qualified to pass any judgement on any football decision that the team makes.
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