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Old 04-18-2005   #1
Toxicology
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Default Has an Expert graded Casserly's first three drafts?

If so, can someone point me to that. I am formulating an opinion but need more info.

Currently, I think that he has done a below average (C-) job.

1. The first round picks have been perfect. A GM should get high first rounders right but there have been plenty o Ryan Leaf selections. I'm not sure if there were any serious alternatives to Carr or Johnson. Close to no brainers, as I recall. Robinson was a great pick, and we could have gone in another direction. Getting this year's #13 pick right will be hard.

2. Whatever above-average grade Casserly gets for the first round, it is more than offset by the 2nd round picks. Gaffney has been the best and he is a disappointment. It's not CC's fault that injuries occur, but I'm looking at it from purely objective criteria . . . has the player produced or performed. Joppru, Hollings, Hill, . . . I'm not impressed.

3. In terms of later round picks, I suppose I like Peek and Dom Davis, but am pressed to identify others. Help would be appreciated.

4. I was and remain against the Ragone pick; jury's out on Wand and Pitts.

In conclusion, unless Wand and Pitts develop into average or plus starting linemen, I think CC has done a below average job.
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Old 04-18-2005   #2
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According to the Great Blue North Draft Report, we got a C+ in the 2002 draft, an A in 2003, and an A for the 2004 draft...

To answer your third question, you may want to add Demarcus Faggins to your list, and to comment on your fourth statement, Ragone was a good pick since he represented a good value and was the BPA at that point...If he performs will in NFL Europe, we may be able to get a 2nd rounder for him...If Philly can get a second rounder for Feeley, we should be able to get one for Ragone...
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Old 04-18-2005   #3
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I would say that CC has done an outstanding job in the 1st round (Carr, AJ, Robinson, Babin), a poor job in the 2nd to date (Gaffney, Pitts, Joppru, Hollings), a mixed job in the 3rd (Peek, Wand, Ragone but offset by Hill and Weary) a good job in the 4th (Wells, DD, and Earl), and an average job after that.
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Old 04-18-2005   #4
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I think an expansion teams picks are more crucial , thus they get judged harder . I believe that we agreed a couple of months ago that if you hit 40% your doing well . Somebody start counting players that contribute vs draft picks .
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Old 04-18-2005   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOgre
I would say that CC has done an outstanding job in the 1st round (Carr, AJ, Robinson, Babin), a poor job in the 2nd to date (Gaffney, Pitts, Joppru, Hollings), a mixed job in the 3rd (Peek, Wand, Ragone but offset by Hill and Weary) a good job in the 4th (Wells, DD, and Earl), and an average job after that.
I would say that is right on target. Other than Charles Hill, I am good with the 3rd rounders, but the 2nd round has been lackluster. They really need to hit a homerun in that round this year. I think as a general rule you want to find a soild starter or abvoe in round 2, and to date, we haven't done so well there. I am especially worried about Hollings, who we used a 2nd on. Right now, it looks like bust city on Hollings, but I think we give him one more year to come around. All in all, my scorecard would be a B to B-.
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Old 04-18-2005   #6
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Link to my thoughts on a "good draft".

http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zon...ead.php?t=7848
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Old 04-18-2005   #7
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Quote:
unless Wand and Pitts develop into average or plus starting linemen,
i think to say they aren't around average players right now might be less than fair (pitts more so than wand)...
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Old 04-18-2005   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOgre
I would say that CC has done an outstanding job in the 1st round (Carr, AJ, Robinson, Babin), a poor job in the 2nd to date (Gaffney, Pitts, Joppru, Hollings), a mixed job in the 3rd (Peek, Wand, Ragone but offset by Hill and Weary) a good job in the 4th (Wells, DD, and Earl), and an average job after that.
Pitts has to be considered a success. At this point, he may well be our best OLineman. Even if that's not saying a great deal, you can't argue that Pitts hasn't contributed.

Gaffney seems to be picking up, I liked what I saw from him this year. I see this pick as having been a forced one. We needed a WR, so we had to grab him, even if we would have prefered a BPA elsewhere.

I consider Babin a 2nd round pick, so between those three adjustments I'd rate the 2nd as "average" instead of poor, but that's just me.

As for the 3rd, I think anytime you get a starter within 3 years outside of the top two rounds, you have to be happy with that. Wand and Peek both seem to qualify. Weary's OK depth, so Hill's the only complete bust here.

Second day is easy. Davis and Earl are out of the park second day guys. Davis is obvious, but Earl doesn't get nearly enough respect around here. Remember how he wasn't even supposed to be able to play last year? To have pushed out a 3-year starter is a pretty amazing accomplishment for a 4th in and of itself. Imagine what he'll be like in 2 years? Wells is ... a 4th round back. Nothing special, but there's a lot worse that could be taking up spots on your depth chart. Faggins is an out-of-the-park 6th rounder. Ramon Walker was a nice 5th. I generally don't expect anything out of second day picks, so these are all bonus.
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Old 04-18-2005   #9
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IMO, CC has done pretty good. Unlike some on here, I like Gaffney. He's a lot more dependable than the "invisible receiver" Bradford. Pitts has done a pretty bang up job considering the circumstances and so has Wand. Those 2 will be above average linemen. Joppru I chalk up to plain old bad luck. He wasn't injury prone in college and was a good prospect. I'm very interested in how Hollings does this preseason. Make or break time for him.
When I think about performances on the field, I try to temper my thoughts with the knowledge that a lot of these guys were thrown in the lions den LONG before Capers wanted to, out of necessity. We didn't exactly set the world on its ear in the supplemental draft of other NFL teams players. The entire organization was getting its feet wet and feeling its way. I think CC and most of the draft picks have done pretty good in that light.
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Old 04-19-2005   #10
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Take a look at the 2002 draft...there aren't a lot of folks who really stood out from rounds 2-7. Clinton Portis is the one guy who really excelled. Each draft has to be evaluated by that class.

Our bad luck w/injuries to Hollings and Joppru is tough to evaluate. I think that Gaffney and Pitts were good selections, both have produced fairly well and have done what's been asked.

Wells, Baxter and Faggins were good late round picks in 02. Wells has been good spec teams and adequate b/u RB; Baxter our b/u FB and Faggins our nickel CB.

Peek, Wand, Ragone, Dom Davis, Milford Brown & Drew Henson were solid picks (w/Davis a monster success as 4th round pick) in 03. We'll see valu of Peek and Wand selections this season. Davis has been a godsend, despite everyone's complaints about him. Brown still has potential and Henson garnered us a #3 for a #6...pretty damn good draft--forgot to mention Ragone who might get us another pick or become our future #2.

Trading up for Babin cost a lot, but we did well by adding Glen Earl, Charlie Anderson, Jamal Lord & Sloan Thomas. We did about as well as possible with what we had left.

I'd say Charlie and scouts rate an overall "B to B+" for what they done so far and that could go to a B+ to A- if Wand, Peek, Joppru & Hollings contribute more this year.
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Old 04-19-2005   #11
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All I would add is The Texans are better at evaluating the skill positions than the offensive and defensive lines. Because of poor drafting of linemen, the protection of Carr is still an issue and the defensive line is getting old and often injured. As a result, last year required going into free agency (Wade and Smith) to fill needs and an attempt was recently made to get a pricey..aging Orlando Pace.

With this tract record, I am skeptical of all their linemen picks. I say the Texans should stick with a skilled player in the first round of the draft.

Sorry Charlie Tuna...I haven't seen the next Joe Jacoby in Wand.
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Old 04-19-2005   #12
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"Has an Expert graded Casserly's first three drafts?"

I'm on the road, but Frank Coyle of Draft Insiders (I've purchased his draft guide last three years and its great) gave us a B+ for 2004 Draft...I can look on other years when I return.
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Old 04-19-2005   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarg01
Pitts has to be considered a success. At this point, he may well be our best OLineman. Even if that's not saying a great deal, you can't argue that Pitts hasn't contributed.

Gaffney seems to be picking up, I liked what I saw from him this year. I see this pick as having been a forced one. We needed a WR, so we had to grab him, even if we would have prefered a BPA elsewhere.

I consider Babin a 2nd round pick, so between those three adjustments I'd rate the 2nd as "average" instead of poor, but that's just me.

As far as I am concerned, Pitts is the only 2nd rounder that has contributed close to the value of the pick we took him with. He was forced to play LT and was not ideally suited for the position, but did an admirable job in a difficult situation. I think he will make big strides in his second year at LG. Of course that is merely my opinion. Time will tell. Grade B-

Gaffney was taken with the 33rd overall pick, one shy of the first round. The guy is a prototypical slot receiver but nothing more. He hasn't been a bad player but he hasn't lived up to the value of this pick. Grade C-/D+

Hollings was taken with a 2nd round supplemental pick that appeared to be worth the 63rd overall pick but turned out to be the 33rd overall pick. I'm going to count him as a 63rd overall pick since that was the perceived value at the time the selection was made. The guy has been injured most of the time. I just don't have the feeling that he will ever measure up to 2nd round quality. He is with the team but has yet to contribute in any reasonable fashion. His tentative grade is an "D-" until proven otherwise.

Benny Joppru hasn't been healthy one single play to date. He might be a good TE for us this season. Until he shows me anything, ANYTHING, I will give him a tentative grade of "F".

As for Babin, he was taken with a 1st round selection, so he is a 1st rounder. If you want to count him as our "2nd" why not count him as our 2nd + 3rd + 4th + 5th - Tenn 5th? He really is a 1st, not a 2nd.
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Old 04-19-2005   #14
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On 1st round picks ill give CC an A+. Carr is getting better every year, AJ is simply a beast, and DROB is just about amazing (should have made the pro bowl his rookie year). Cant ask for anything more than that.

On 2nd round picks the best i can honestly give is a C-.

For rounds 3-7 Ill give em a B+.
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Old 04-19-2005   #15
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Here are our draft picks by round followed by the expansion draft picks. Maybe everyone can get a better idea of how the Texans have done in each round since our inception.

Round 1-David Carr, Andre Johnson, Dunta Robinson, Jason Babin
Round 2-Jabar Gaffney, Chester Pitts, Bennie Joppru, Tony Hollings,
Round 3-Fred Weary, Charles Hill, Antwaan Peek, Seth Wand, Dave Ragone
Round 4-Jonathan Wells, Domanick Davis, Glen Earl
Round 5-Jarrod Baxter, Ramon Walker
Round 6-Demarcus Faggins, Howard Green, Drew Henson, Keith Wright, Vontez Duff, Jammal Lord, Charlie Anderson
Round 7-Greg White, Ahmad Miller, Curry Burns, Chance Pearce, Raheem Orr, Sloan Thomas, B.J. Symons

http://football.about.com/library/we...nsiondraft.htm

Pick Player Position Team Salary Cap Hit
1 Tony Boselli OT Jaguars $6.89 million
2 Ryan Young OT Jets $563,000
3 Aaron Glenn CB Jets $8.01 million
4 Gary Walker DT Jaguars $5.25 million
5 Jamie Sharper LB Ravens $2.88 million
6 Jermaine Lewis WR Ravens $4.29 million
7 Marcus Coleman CB Jets $5.48 million
8 Seth Payne DT Jaguars $2.78 million
9 Matt Campbell OG Redskins $875,000
10 Matt Stevens S Patriots $565,000
11 Jeremy McKinney OG Browns $405,760
12 Ryan Schau OT Eagles $563,000
13 Charlie Rogers RB Seahawks $563,000
14 Sean McDermott TE Buccaneers $300,000
15 Jabari Issa DE Cardinals $397,000
16 Avion Black WR Bills $460,000
17 Danny Wuerffel QB Bears $556,000
18 Brian Allen LB Rams $452,000
19 Johnny Huggins TE Cowboys $300,000
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Old 04-19-2005   #16
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I think you have to weigh each draft in the context of the quality of that draft. For instance in 2002 there is not a single Tackle prospect picked after Chester Pitts that starts today. The draft is relative to its talent each year. The first year we had to draft for need in a few spots because we had street FA's in some positions. It takes a bit of time to find 22 starters and you need to make some hard choices in some places when you do this from scratch and 2002 was a weak draft class.
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Old 04-19-2005   #17
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Perhaps that is true Vinny, but didn't we draft Pitts to be an OG? We already had Young and Boselli, who appeared to be our foundation at OT for many years (gotta laugh now). I think we should compare Pitts to other OG's, since that is what we were looking for when we drafted him (perhaps they picked Pitts because he had the ability to play OT as well...we may never know). I know LeCharles Bentley (Saints OG) went a few picks ahead of him and is one of the better lineman to come out of the 2002 draft. Were there any better guards taken after Pitts?
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Old 04-19-2005   #18
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We drafted Pitts because he can do both and was insurance for Boselli. Bentley could not have played LT. There is not much line talent after round 2 in this draft.

Round 3 and back...

66 Fred Weary Texans C Tennessee
2 67 Matt Schobel Bengals TE Texas Christian
3 68 Andre Goodman Lions DB South Carolina
4 69 Saleem Rasheed 49ers LB Alabama
5 70 Willie Offord Vikings DB South Carolina
6 71 Ben Leber Chargers LB Kansas State
7 72 Roosevelt Williams Bears DB Tuskegee
8 73 Will Witherspoon Panthers LB Georgia
9 74 Joseph Jefferson Colts DB Western Kentucky
10 75 Derek Ross Cowboys DB Ohio State
11 76 Melvin Fowler Browns C Maryland
12 77 Rocky Calmus Titans LB Oklahoma
13 78 Jeff Hatch Giants T Pennsylvania
14 79 Rashad Bauman Redskins DB Oregon
15 80 Will Overstreet Falcons DE Tennessee
16 81 Josh McCown Cardinals QB Sam Houston State
17 82 James Allen Saints LB Oregon State
18 83 Charles Hill Texans DT Maryland
19 84 Lamar Gordon Rams RB North Dakota State
20 85 Kris Richard Seahawks DB USC
21 86 Marquis Walker Buccaneers WR Michigan
22 87 Cliff Russell Redskins WR Utah
23 88 Chris Baker Jets TE Michigan State
24 89 Akin Ayodele Jaguars LB Purdue
25 90 Seth McKinney Dolphins C Texas A&M
26 91 Brian Westbrook Eagles RB Villanova
27 92 Marques Anderson Packers DB UCLA
28 93 Terrence Metcalf Bears G Mississippi
29 94 Chris Hope Steelers DB Florida State
30 95 Eric Crouch Rams WR Nebraska
31 96 Dorsett Davis Broncos DT Mississippi State
32 97 Coy Wire Bills DB Stanford
33 98 Dennis Johnson Cardinals DE Kentucky
4 1 99 Jonathan Wells Texans RB Ohio State
2 100 Dante Wesley Panthers DB Arkansas-Pine Bluff
3 101 Kevin Bentley Browns LB Northwestern
4 102 Jeff Chandler 49ers K Florida
5 103 Justin Peelle Chargers TE Oregon
6 104 Alex Brown Bears DE Florida
7 105 Brian Williams Vikings DB North Carolina State
8 106 David Thorton Colts LB North Carolina
9 107 Omar Easy Chiefs RB Penn State
10 108 David Garrard Jaguars QB East Carolina
11 109 Travis Dorsch Bengals K Purdue
12 110 Mike Echols Titans DB Wisconsin
13 111 Ben Taylor Browns LB Virginia Tech
14 112 Dave Zastudil Ravens P Ohio
15 113 Nate Dwyer Cardinals DT Kansas
16 114 Randy McMichael Dolphins TE Georgia
17 115 Tony Beckham Titans DB Wisconsin-Stout
18 116 Martin Bibla Falcons G Miami (FL)
19 117 Rohan Davey Patriots QB Louisiana State
20 118 Chris Luzar Jaguars TE Virginia
21 119 Travis Stephens Buccaneers RB Tennessee
22 120 Terreal Bierria Seahawks DB Georgia
23 121 Alan Harper Jets DT Fresno State
24 122 Darnell Sanders Browns TE Ohio State
25 123 Ron Johnson Ravens WR Minnesota
26 124 Scott Peters Eagles C Arizona State
27 125 Keyuo Craver Saints DB Nebraska
28 126 Jarvis Green Patriots DE Louisiana State
29 127 Kevin Curtis 49ers DB Texas Tech
30 128 Larry Foote Steelers LB Michigan
31 129 Jamar Martin Cowboys RB Ohio State
32 130 Travis Scott Rams G Arizona State
33 131 Sam Brandon Broncos DB UNLV
34 132 Edward Ta'amu Vikings G Utah
35 133 Rocky Boiman Titans LB Notre Dame
36 134 John Taylor Lions LB Montana State
37 135 Najeh Davenport Packers RB Miami (FL)
5 1 136 Jarrod Baxter Texans RB New Mexico
2 137 Randy Fasani Panthers QB Stanford
3 138 John Owens Lions TE Notre Dame
4 139 Justin Bannan Bills DT Colorado
5 140 Bobby Gray Bears DB Louisiana Tech
6 141 Andra Davis Browns LB Florida
7 142 Terry Charles Chargers WR Portland State
8 143 Scott Fujita Chiefs LB California
9 144 Herb Haygood Broncos WR Michigan State
10 145 Kyle Johnson Panthers RB Syracuse
11 146 Rocky Bernard Seahawks DE Texas A&M
12 147 Kenyon Coleman Raiders DE UCLA
13 148 Kevin McCadam Falcons DB Virginia Tech
14 149 Jason McAddley Cardinals WR Alabama
15 150 Mel Mitchell Saints DB Western Kentucky
16 151 Jake Schifino Titans WR Akron
17 152 Nick Greisen Giants LB Wisconsin
18 153 Ramone Walker Texans DB Pittsburgh
19 154 Jonathan Goodwin Jets G Michigan
20 155 Terry Jones Jr Ravens TE Alabama
21 156 Aaron Kampmann Packers DE Iowa
22 157 Jermaine Phillips Buccaneers DB Georgia
23 158 Kurt Kittner Falcons QB Illinois
24 159 Andre Lott Redskins DB Tennessee
25 160 Robert Royal Redskins TE Louisiana State
26 161 Omare Lowe Dolphins DB Washington
27 162 Freddie Milons Eagles WR Alabama
28 163 Brandon Doman 49ers QB Brigham Young
29 164 Craig Nall Packers QB Northwestern State
30 165 Bryan Knight Bears LB Pittsburgh
31 166 Verron Haynes Steelers RB Georgia
32 167 Courtland Bullard Rams LB Ohio State
33 168 Ralph Hunter Cowboys DB Virginia Union
34 169 Ryan Hannam Seahawks TE Northern Iowa
35 170 Sam Simmons Dolphins WR Northwestern
36 171 Matt Hill Seahawks T Boise State
37 172 Josh Shaw 49ers DT Michigan State
6 1 173 Howard Faggins Texans DB Kansas State
2 174 Keith Heinrich Panthers TE Sam Houston State
3 175 Chris Cash Lions DB USC
4 176 Kevin Thomas Bills DB UNLV
5 177 Nick Rogers Vikings LB Georgia Tech
6 178 Matt Anderle Chargers T Minnesota
7 179 Tyson Walter Cowboys T Ohio State
8 180 Clenton Ballard Jaguars DT Southwest Texas State
9 181 Marquand Manuel Bengals DB Florida
10 182 David Pugh Colts DT Virginia Tech
11 183 James Lewis Colts DB Miami (FL)
12 184 Kahlil Hill Falcons WR Iowa
13 185 Josh Scobey Cardinals RB Kansas State
14 186 J.T. O'Sullivan Saints QB California-Davis
15 187 Justin Hartwig Titans T Kansas
16 188 Wesley Mallard Giants DB Oregon
17 189 Keyon Nash Raiders DB Albany State
18 190 Howard Green Texans DT Louisiana State
19 191 Jeb Putzier Broncos TE Boise State
20 192 Reggie Coleman Redskins T Tennessee
21 193 John Stamper Buccaneers DE South Carolina
22 194 Craig Jarrett Seahawks P Michigan State
23 195 LaMont Brightful Ravens WR Eastern Washington
24 196 John Gilmore Saints TE Penn State
25 197 Larry Ned Raiders RB San Diego State
26 198 Tyreo Harrison Eagles LB Notre Dame
27 199 Adrian Peterson Bears RB Georgia Southern
28 200 Mike Houghton Packers T San Diego State
29 201 Mark Anelli 49ers TE Wisconsin
30 202 Lee Mays Steelers WR Texas-El Paso
31 203 Jamin Elliott Bears WR Delaware
32 204 Brian Allen Colts RB Stanford
33 205 Steve Bellisari Rams QB Ohio State
34 206 Javin Hunter Ravens WR Notre Dame
35 207 Chester Taylor Ravens RB Toledo
36 208 Deveren Johnson Cowboys WR Sacred Heart
37 209 Chad Williams Ravens DB Southern Mississippi
38 210 Bryan Fletcher Bears TE UCLA
39 211 Bob Slowikowski Cowboys TE Virginia Tech
7 1 212 LaVar Glover Steelers DB Cincinnati
2 213 Pete Campion Panthers G North Dakota State
3 214 Luke Staley Lions RB Brigham Young
4 215 Mike Pucillo Bills G Auburn
5 216 Seth Burford Chargers QB Cal Poly-San Luis Obispo
6 217 Michael Coleman Falcons WR Widener
7 218 Chad Beasley Vikings DT Virginia Tech
8 219 Joey Evans Bengals DE North Carolina
9 220 Josh Mallard Colts DE Georgia
10 221 Maurice Rodriguez Chiefs LB Fresno State
11 222 Kendall Newson Jaguars WR Middle Tennessee State
12 223 Mike Banks Cardinals TE Iowa State
13 224 Derrius Monroe Saints DE Virginia Tech
14 225 Darrell Hill Titans WR Northern Illinois
15 226 Daryl Jones Giants WR Miami (FL)
16 227 Joaquin Gonzalez Browns T Miami (FL)
17 228 Chris Young Broncos DB Georgia Tech
18 229 Greg White Texans DE Minnesota
19 230 Jeff Grau Redskins TE UCLA
20 231 Monsanto Pope Broncos DT Virginia
21 232 Jeff Kelly Seahawks QB Southern Mississippi
22 233 Tim Wansley Buccaneers DB Georgia
23 234 Gregory Scott Redskins DE Hampton
24 235 Ronald Curry Raiders QB North Carolina
25 236 Wes Pate Ravens QB Stephen F. Austin
26 237 Antwoine Womack Patriots RB Virginia
27 238 Raheem Brock Eagles DE Temple
28 239 Eric Heitmann 49ers G Stanford
29 240 Carlos Hall Titans DE Arkansas
30 241 Leonard Henry Dolphins RB East Carolina
31 242 Brett Keisel Steelers DE Brigham Young
32 243 Chris Massey Rams C Marshall
33 244 David Givens Patriots WR Notre Dame
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Old 04-19-2005   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOgre
Perhaps that is true Vinny, but didn't we draft Pitts to be an OG? We already had Young and Boselli, who appeared to be our foundation at OT for many years (gotta laugh now). I think we should compare Pitts to other OG's, since that is what we were looking for when we drafted him (perhaps they picked Pitts because he had the ability to play OT as well...we may never know). I know LeCharles Bentley (Saints OG) went a few picks ahead of him and is one of the better lineman to come out of the 2002 draft. Were there any better guards taken after Pitts?
Before Pitts:

Andre Gurode--14 starts in 2002, 15 in 2003, 13 in 2004
Toniu Fonoti--14 starts 2002, 0 in 2003, 16 in 2004
LeCharles Bentley--14 starts 2002, 13 in 2003, 16 in 2004

After Pitts:

Fred Weary
Terrence Metcalf--0 starts 2002, 2 in 2003, 5 in 2004
Martin Bibla--0 starts 2002, 2 in 2003, 0 in 2004
Scott Peters--0 starts 2002, 4 in 2003, 0 in 2004
Travis Scott--0 starts
Ed Ta'amu--appears to be out of the league
Johnathon Goodwin--0 starts 2002, 0 in 2003, 3 in 2004
Pete Campion--appears to be out of the league
Mike Pucillo--0 starts 2002, 12 starts in 2003, 0 starts in 2004

Chester Pitts has been the only OG prospect to start every game from the 2002 draft class and is the last OG prospect from that class to have become a regular starter. Seems like in the context of the 2002 draft class it was a pretty astute pick.
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Old 04-19-2005   #20
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Let us not forget that he drafted Drew Henson when it was for certain he would not come back to football. Instead, Drew comes back and we turn a 6th rounder into a 3rd rounder that could potentially turn into trade bait for this draft to acquire a higer position.
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