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Old 04-20-2005   #21
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yea that and the O-line to gel together and play as a whole unit.
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Old 04-20-2005   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texanfan2002114
I'm sorry to say but its really not that even. I believe Carr has done WAY better with alot less. Carr took over a brand new offense that had never played together, while Harrington had an established o-line and team. Harrington was almost cut by the Lions this year and has been rumored to have confindence problems, while Carr is the Texans franchise QB. Just the way I see it.
I agree. Put Harrington in Carr's spot the last 3 years...would you have gotten similar or better results? NO. David has yet to show us what he can do, I believe that Joey has. Jeffy Garcia may just sit him back in #2 position. Ain't no way Garcia would do that to Carr (if he was landed here for some unknown reason).
I hope that David is indeed of Favre theory (playing his career here) because while I have said a few critical things about him thus far, it is because I believe he hasn't played to potential yet. But he will soon and I am anticipating that potential to be great.
This year will answer alot of questions for some about the Texans and David's future..and if Casserly and Capers will be apart of it.
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Old 04-20-2005   #23
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i dont think joey will be good....he'll be average at best. i think in the next 2 years he'll be a nobody a flop like rob johnson. IMO
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Old 04-20-2005   #24
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do we need to have one of these every month. we all know that us texans will carr and then the detroit faithful with come back with how great joey is going to do this year. whats next another rogers/johnson debate? for the record carr and johnson as of right now.
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Old 04-20-2005   #25
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The Lions were in shambles and looked like an expansion team going into the 2002 draft. It seems like their progress has parelleled that of the Texans. I think both teams have the potential to make big jumps in the standings either this season or next.
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Old 04-21-2005   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gg no re
I would think the fact that the Lions signed Garcia shows how they feel about Harrington's development. The fact that fans also chanted for Mike McMahon to replace Harrington shows their feelings towards Harrington's development. heck, you got those rumors that said Joey was going to be cut.

You look at Carr, I doubt anyone has demanded that Tony Banks or Dave Ragone replace him immediately, or that we should sign Kurt Warner or Brad Johnson to push Carr to perform better.
The lions signing of Garcia is 2 fold 1 probably the best back- up QB avalible and 2- to push Joey's talents! As far as any rumers of Joey being cut, I never heard this! I mean are you gunna cut a guy who through for as many yards as joey with basically no one to throw too? Thanks again for all of the responses and opinions! You all obviously know your football!! Go Lions!!
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Old 04-21-2005   #27
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He's not going to be cut. That is ridiculous. I don't think he's that great but the Lions have invested too much time and patience to cut him this year. They'll give him 1 or 2 more with a veteren QB who knows the Mariucci system. If he doesn't get it by then....snip...snip...snip

By the way, Carr is better by far (I made a rhyme).

I've watched the Lions play and haven't ever heard a commentator compliment Harrington on his elusiveness, savvy, grit, or even how great his arm is. Carr has had all of these compliments while playing on national TV.
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Old 04-21-2005   #28
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we need to cut Joey a tad bit of slack.here

My honest comparison is this

Offenses learned over career

Carr 1 Harrington 2 Advantage Carr But Cut Joey a little slack I dont think your whole job description has ever totally changed on you to this magnitude and be expected to not only do your job but do your job better than you ever have.

Quality Star recievers

Carr 1 Harrington 1 (would have 2 if Rogers would quit breaking his collarbones) Advantage Harrington since we have yet to find that quality #2

Offensive Line

Carr 0 Harrington 1 Advantage Harrington there is no more tinkering there like we seem to have here at this point.

Decision Making

Carr 1 Harrington 0 Advantage Carr this stems from the playbook comparison earlier but also Carr isnt the reckless gunslinger Harrington can be when he tries to be to fine with his throws.

Arm Strength

Tie - they both have fabulous Arms

Toughness

Tie - Both play banged up i think harrington even had his finger relocated between snaps.

End result - niether guy honestly has been noticeably better than the other. Garcia was brought in because he knows the offense and can help Joey as well as push him. Joey has better tools than Garcia hands down.

Who would I rather Have? Well at first I liked Harrington alot in college he just impressed me. But I am glad we chose Carr and stick with him as our guy. Harrington is the Lions QB and will show a remarkable spike in play with incresed playbook knowledge and hopefully a healthy supporting cast.
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Old 04-21-2005   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOgre
The Lions were in shambles and looked like an expansion team going into the 2002 draft. It seems like their progress has parelleled that of the Texans. I think both teams have the potential to make big jumps in the standings either this season or next.
Since Matt Millen took the GM spot, I really believe the lions are heading in the right direction! To me they are being very methodical in there dicision making. They are putting together a puzzle one piece at a time! The Texans are also a very young team and I look for them to improve greatly in 05. There are alot of lion fans who wish we would have gotten Carr, but I am still banking that Joey can get us to the promise land!! Go Lions!!
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Old 04-21-2005   #30
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Barry Sanders is my favorite back of all time, and I grew up with Earl Campbell as my team's RB here in Houston (who is a very close second). That should tell you something!!

I remember when Sanders beat the hell out of A&M when he was at OSU. The guy was so fun to watch. I don't know how many direct hits he ever took, he was so elusive. Can you believe Thurman Thomas and Barry Sanders shared the same backfield? And at OSU of all places?
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Old 04-21-2005   #31
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"Originally Posted by gg no re
I would think the fact that the Lions signed Garcia shows how they feel about Harrington's development. The fact that fans also chanted for Mike McMahon to replace Harrington shows their feelings towards Harrington's development. heck, you got those rumors that said Joey was going to be cut."

hate to rain on ur parade but i've been to plenty of texans games when the fans chanted tony or ragone. its happened i think it'll happen to any QB that messes a few plays up in a row.
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Old 04-21-2005   #32
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Originally Posted by TopTexanFan16
hate to rain on ur parade but i've been to plenty of texans games when the fans chanted tony or ragone. its happened i think it'll happen to any QB that messes a few plays up in a row.
Ummm, sure you did. Unless it was some kind of localized chant being led by you in your section, I have been to every home game and have never heard anyone chant Tony or Ragone.
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Old 04-21-2005   #33
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yea so have i, every home game and i hear it alot. espeacially during the browns game when everyong booed him. yea.
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Old 04-21-2005   #34
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and yea i admit i've yelled it to when it seems like all he's doin is holding on to the ball and gettin sacked. u get a bunch of disgruntled fans together adding half of them r drunk ur gonna get that. so no its not just my section either but it has def. happened P.S. i've yelled it but never started it haha
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Old 04-21-2005   #35
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Plain and Simple!

Harrington=Ryan Leaf

Carr=Peyton Manning!

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Old 04-21-2005   #36
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hahaha carr= peyton manning as much as i want to beilive so i dont, at least not yet he hasnt reached his full potential yet and i think he'll be a great QB and have a good career.
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Old 04-21-2005   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TopTexanFan16
yea so have i, every home game and i hear it alot. espeacially during the browns game when everyong booed him. yea.
...and yea i admit i've yelled it to when it seems like all he's doin is holding on to the ball and gettin sacked. u get a bunch of disgruntled fans together adding half of them r drunk ur gonna get that. so no its not just my section either but it has def. happened P.S. i've yelled it but never started it haha
I'm with Infantry on this one, I've got no idea what you're talking about w/ the Calling for Banks or (gasp!) Ragone. There's defnitely been no "organized chanting" as such.

Back to topic - When we drafted Carr, I said at the time that I'd been happy with either one, but time has definitely favored Carr (even in far less-favorable circumstances).
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Old 04-21-2005   #38
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Oh Geez....

I would like to prefice this by saying that D-Rek probably had the best post as far as, well, everything and I agree with everything he said....There were several posts that had similar ideas, and I agree 100%. Some posts like Filo-Girl leads me to think that some are posting opinions from a completely homer point of view (nothing wrong with that) without either ever having watched more than 1 or 2 Lions games or do not know much about football.

Some of you here recognize me, and you've probably heard alot of what I'm going to say, but I'm going to say it again for those that have not.

First off, Barry Fan- The Lions were like an expansion team. Millen came in and cleaned house. And Joey had 19 TD's last year, not 21.

OK, the biggest argument is Joey has had a 'team' around him, and Carr has had no Oline. This is the opinion of someone who has not watched the Lions for the past 3 yrs.

Let's start with the OLine- Houston has had trouble there ever since Boselli (sp?), no argument here.
Lions have had a decent (mediocre, average, etc...) line the past 3 seasons, although it did get better last season. Proof you ask? The Lions have not had a 1000 yd rusher in Joey's 3 seasons. In fact, they were last (I believe) in rushing in the NFL in 2002 and 2003, and KJ got most of his yds the last 8-9 games of the season. I will also say Joey threw the ball away, into coverage, or INT's sometimes instead of taking the sack. This also contributed to his lower sack total (it is not always in the stats). He corrected this alot last season. Advantage Joey

Running Game- Like I said above, last (or nearly (?)) in the NFL in Joey's first 2 seasons, Carr- 1000 yd runner in past 2 seasons. Advantage Carr

WR's- here is the difference in passing stats IMO. Joey has never had a true #1 WR in 3 seasons, or at least one that stayed healthy. In his rookie season, Joey had Hakim as his #1 WR (before he got hurt), then Bill Shroeder was #1 (think he's goog? Got cut by Tampa last year who was hurting for WR's), plus other no names that are not even in the league anymore. Second season, CRog goes down in the 5th game, Hakim is again the #1 WR, coming back after injury. And Joey was left with the like of Swinton (you guys have heard of him right? lol) who was picked up mid season off waivers, and a bunch of scrubs. Last year, CRog goes down on the third play of the first game, but we have RW, Hakim is back in the slot where he belongs, all is well, Lions are 4-2, Joey has the highest rated 4th quarter QB rating, until...RW goes down with an ankle injury. He only missed two games, but if you watched games after he came back, he was still hobbling and was basically a decoy. Hakim also got hurt in game 9 I think. Swinton, Kircus (practice squad) and Vines (Rookie) were starting for several weeks. I don't know how much ya'll know about the WCO, but it is founded on timing and reads at the LOS. QB and WR's all have to make reads at the line, WR's can run up to 3 different routes depending on the D. It is kind of hard to create any continuity with WR's when there is a revolving door at that position. But you don't here about the scrub WR's on sportscenter, so you have no idea how bad they were, hence my you don't watch Lions games comment.

I should also mention Lions led the NFL in drops the past 2 seasons (2 last year in the endzone that were game winners)

Now Carr has had AJ for two years, and Bradford, Gaffney have been here all 3 years (right?). Carr has better continuity with his WR's. While Bradford and Gaffney may not be the best, they are better than midseason waivers WR's, practice squad WR's and the Lions #4-6 WR's. Advantage Carr

Offensive philosophy- The seven step drop is what is killing Carr, more than the oline, IMO. I believe they are instituting more 3 and 5 step timing routes this year. That will help.
Like I said, WCO is about timing and reads, no continuity among WR's makes it hard for a QB to get into any type of rythmm. If you don't see that, you are who I was reffering to when I said you don't know much about football. Advantage Wash

Now, who is better? Honestly, I will say Carr, but not by as much as some on here think. As I have pointed out, both QB's have had problems. Some on here think the Oline is the problem with Carr and that is more important than Joey's lack in continuity at the WR position. I disagree, I think they are different but equal. Joey has no WR's to throw the ball to with his extra time and Carr has no time to get the ball to his good WR's. I call that a wash.

As far as Garcia is concerned, several thoughts on that. 1- had to have a quality backup, 2- he is familiar with the system, 3- came cheap. Garcia is there to backup Joey, mentor him, and come in if Joey falls on his face or gets hurt. That is all there is to it.

Now here is some interesting thoughts for ya'll. I have a feeling many of you have formed your opinion of Joey from ESPN, the newspaper, rumors, etc...and have never seen him play (much). The difference is, even though Joey and Carr have very, very similiar stats through 3 seasons, why is Carr still 'developing' and Joey sucks?

2 thoughts on this. 1- Carr is the 'All-American' kid, good christian, married, 4 (?) kids, etc... Joey is bashed as a quirky, wine and cheese eating weirdo. Carr is the media darling, much better for promotion.

2- Houston fans are much easier on Carr than Joey. Yes, Carr has been booed or whatever, but I was at a game where the Lions were 2 - 0, and he was booed during intros....In Detroit. The 'blue collar' fans in Detroit cannot relate to this guy. They call for his head, nevermind the rebuilding the team went through or the rash of injuries. It is much easier for the national media to form there opinons based on fans reactions than to actually watch all his games. I don't know, maybe Texans fans are just smarter

Filo- would Joey have been as good as Carr on this team? I don't know, but I don't think he would have been much worse. The question is, could Carr have done better in a more complex O with no WR help? I don't think he could have done much better there either. BTW- they say the WCO takes 3 yrs to learn. Look at McNabbs #'s his first 3 yrs, or Steve Youngs, not hugely different than Joeys (except running yds).

To sum up, both TEAMS have had issues, Carr gets the slight edge, but they are both young and have alot to prove this year.

I tried to stay as objective as possible, I just focused on Joey because I know more about the Lions than ya'll and you already know about Carr. Hope you can take this as a learning experience as opposed to so and so is better.
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Old 04-21-2005   #39
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Oh, and BarryFan- There have been rumors of Joey being cut (although mostly by fans and Detroit media), but that is because he has a $10 mil cap number this year.

Texans fans- When is Carr's salary cap # going to skyrocket? Next year? He signed a significantly larger contract than Joey, 36 mil vs 60 mil, but Carr's is only 1 yr longer (and he hasn't had a very large salary yet). I'm just curious that if Carr has another mediocre season, despite Oline issues, but is due say 12 mil, what ya'll will be saying.
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Old 04-22-2005   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonLionsFan
Oh Geez....

I would like to prefice this by saying that D-Rek probably had the best post as far as, well, everything and I agree with everything he said....There were several posts that had similar ideas, and I agree 100%. Some posts like Filo-Girl leads me to think that some are posting opinions from a completely homer point of view (nothing wrong with that) without either ever having watched more than 1 or 2 Lions games or do not know much about football.

Some of you here recognize me, and you've probably heard alot of what I'm going to say, but I'm going to say it again for those that have not.

First off, Barry Fan- The Lions were like an expansion team. Millen came in and cleaned house. And Joey had 19 TD's last year, not 21.

OK, the biggest argument is Joey has had a 'team' around him, and Carr has had no Oline. This is the opinion of someone who has not watched the Lions for the past 3 yrs.

Let's start with the OLine- Houston has had trouble there ever since Boselli (sp?), no argument here.
Lions have had a decent (mediocre, average, etc...) line the past 3 seasons, although it did get better last season. Proof you ask? The Lions have not had a 1000 yd rusher in Joey's 3 seasons. In fact, they were last (I believe) in rushing in the NFL in 2002 and 2003, and KJ got most of his yds the last 8-9 games of the season. I will also say Joey threw the ball away, into coverage, or INT's sometimes instead of taking the sack. This also contributed to his lower sack total (it is not always in the stats). He corrected this alot last season. Advantage Joey

Running Game- Like I said above, last (or nearly (?)) in the NFL in Joey's first 2 seasons, Carr- 1000 yd runner in past 2 seasons. Advantage Carr

WR's- here is the difference in passing stats IMO. Joey has never had a true #1 WR in 3 seasons, or at least one that stayed healthy. In his rookie season, Joey had Hakim as his #1 WR (before he got hurt), then Bill Shroeder was #1 (think he's goog? Got cut by Tampa last year who was hurting for WR's), plus other no names that are not even in the league anymore. Second season, CRog goes down in the 5th game, Hakim is again the #1 WR, coming back after injury. And Joey was left with the like of Swinton (you guys have heard of him right? lol) who was picked up mid season off waivers, and a bunch of scrubs. Last year, CRog goes down on the third play of the first game, but we have RW, Hakim is back in the slot where he belongs, all is well, Lions are 4-2, Joey has the highest rated 4th quarter QB rating, until...RW goes down with an ankle injury. He only missed two games, but if you watched games after he came back, he was still hobbling and was basically a decoy. Hakim also got hurt in game 9 I think. Swinton, Kircus (practice squad) and Vines (Rookie) were starting for several weeks. I don't know how much ya'll know about the WCO, but it is founded on timing and reads at the LOS. QB and WR's all have to make reads at the line, WR's can run up to 3 different routes depending on the D. It is kind of hard to create any continuity with WR's when there is a revolving door at that position. But you don't here about the scrub WR's on sportscenter, so you have no idea how bad they were, hence my you don't watch Lions games comment.

I should also mention Lions led the NFL in drops the past 2 seasons (2 last year in the endzone that were game winners)

Now Carr has had AJ for two years, and Bradford, Gaffney have been here all 3 years (right?). Carr has better continuity with his WR's. While Bradford and Gaffney may not be the best, they are better than midseason waivers WR's, practice squad WR's and the Lions #4-6 WR's. Advantage Carr

Offensive philosophy- The seven step drop is what is killing Carr, more than the oline, IMO. I believe they are instituting more 3 and 5 step timing routes this year. That will help.
Like I said, WCO is about timing and reads, no continuity among WR's makes it hard for a QB to get into any type of rythmm. If you don't see that, you are who I was reffering to when I said you don't know much about football. Advantage Wash

Now, who is better? Honestly, I will say Carr, but not by as much as some on here think. As I have pointed out, both QB's have had problems. Some on here think the Oline is the problem with Carr and that is more important than Joey's lack in continuity at the WR position. I disagree, I think they are different but equal. Joey has no WR's to throw the ball to with his extra time and Carr has no time to get the ball to his good WR's. I call that a wash.

As far as Garcia is concerned, several thoughts on that. 1- had to have a quality backup, 2- he is familiar with the system, 3- came cheap. Garcia is there to backup Joey, mentor him, and come in if Joey falls on his face or gets hurt. That is all there is to it.

Now here is some interesting thoughts for ya'll. I have a feeling many of you have formed your opinion of Joey from ESPN, the newspaper, rumors, etc...and have never seen him play (much). The difference is, even though Joey and Carr have very, very similiar stats through 3 seasons, why is Carr still 'developing' and Joey sucks?

2 thoughts on this. 1- Carr is the 'All-American' kid, good christian, married, 4 (?) kids, etc... Joey is bashed as a quirky, wine and cheese eating weirdo. Carr is the media darling, much better for promotion.

2- Houston fans are much easier on Carr than Joey. Yes, Carr has been booed or whatever, but I was at a game where the Lions were 2 - 0, and he was booed during intros....In Detroit. The 'blue collar' fans in Detroit cannot relate to this guy. They call for his head, nevermind the rebuilding the team went through or the rash of injuries. It is much easier for the national media to form there opinons based on fans reactions than to actually watch all his games. I don't know, maybe Texans fans are just smarter

Filo- would Joey have been as good as Carr on this team? I don't know, but I don't think he would have been much worse. The question is, could Carr have done better in a more complex O with no WR help? I don't think he could have done much better there either. BTW- they say the WCO takes 3 yrs to learn. Look at McNabbs #'s his first 3 yrs, or Steve Youngs, not hugely different than Joeys (except running yds).

To sum up, both TEAMS have had issues, Carr gets the slight edge, but they are both young and have alot to prove this year.

I tried to stay as objective as possible, I just focused on Joey because I know more about the Lions than ya'll and you already know about Carr. Hope you can take this as a learning experience as opposed to so and so is better.
Being from mich, Battle Creek to be specific, I have been a fan for almost 40 years! This discription and comparision is right on the money. Just another example of how stats can be deceiving, and how the "intangibles" are so important to making an educated evaluation. I know these young men get paid a butt-load of money, but there is so much pressure laid on these guys that It's a wonder more don't wash out like a leaf. Obviously these 2 QBs have the charector to play through adversity and critisism and says alot about there integrity. Again I feel both will do fine and when all is said and done they will be at the top. Everybody thinks Brady is so good but plug either Carr or Joey in with NE offense and watch both shine! Thanks again for all of the imput as I have found all most interesting!! Go Lions!!
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