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Old 03-24-2011   #141
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Originally Posted by HoustonFrog View Post
That is a jacked up number of what ifs. Schaub may not be playing if it weren't for the Rosencopter. I mean this happens every season. The following seasons of Patriot success was not due to all of those things. Kraft was successful before that season. Those things happening were fortunate but EVERY year stuff happens where guys get hurt and other guys step up. Kraft has the right people in place and manages the team better than the McNair does the Texans. This isn't 9 degrees of Kevin Bacon where one team is lucky and has X,Y,Z happen to have their future set and the other is run the same but has bad luck. Brady was there because they drafted him.

This is just tiring.
What's interesting is that it appears there is a sector of people who think success isn't entirely or exclusively earned, but rather it's in conjunction with good fortune. Luck, good fortune, a series of circumstantial events. Fate.

This explains why some are a little bit more "chill" as it pertains to whether a coach should be fired or not.

I'm not saying that the Rabitt's Foot gang doesn't think Kubiak should have been fired--A lot of them have said that he should have been fired. But I think it explains their willingness to not get their panties in a bunch like the Soapers have over the deal. Too many factors involved, possibly, to say it was this or that (exclusively).

THEORY: Soapers think the end result is a sum total of the efforts of the people in charge of managing, planning, coaching, and playing the game of football. Rabbit Footers think that an element outside the control of man is linked to the end result (in addition to managing, planning, etc.).

This could explain why each side is entrenched against the other so often. On one side, there are those who think you can rise above and conquer any obstacle in your path--It's you vs. the world, find a way to adapt and overcome. On the other side of the aisle, there's a group who indeed values all of those ideals yet also thinks there's a certain ceiling you reach pertaining to the element of "What if Drew Bledsoe was never injured?"

My reasoning dictates that it was inevitable that Brady was going to get a shot. In the NFL, things seem to level themselves out pretty well. The NFL has always held intrugue for me because it's a place where everyone figures out fairly quickly who has the goods and who doesn't--The only squelching of talent seemingly arises either out of injury to the upward-trending athlete (Bo Jackson), trouble with the law (Burress), just flat out leaving the game altogether (Barry Sanders, Glen Coffe, etc.), or an owner and/or coach/GM who falls in love with the starter and doesn't have the good sense to see that the 2nd or 3rd string guy is the better option.

Even in the face of all those things I listed above, the best in the NFL seemingly find a way to rise to the top. One way or another, whether it's in camp, preseason games, injuries, a contract dispute and subsequent trading/releasing of the player, etc....all roads lead to the guy with the best talent getting his shot at some point or another.

To me, this renders the "What if Drew Bledsoe had never been injured" scenarios a bit of a moot point. What if Jimmy Johnson had never become a coach at all, what if he was a tire salesman instead? What if there wasn't an NFL at all? What if, what if, what if, etc. I think there is certainly something to the idea that a good bounce here, or a bad call by a ref there, can impact the end result.

I just think nothing of what I have seen from the Texans has shown me that they have a smidgen of ability to test the top tier of the NFL and truly challenge those teams in a one-on-one gameday situation for a chance at a SB ring. The offense? Maybe. Yet they still are a tricky group to rely upon when you look at 2010's efforts all season long.

I think we're a team that doesn't know how to deal with adversity and unfortunate bounces to the point of taking it by the tail and just throwing it out of the entire stadium. No killer instinct, IMO. No do-or-die persona, IMO. And I think that eminates from the top (McNair) to the middle (Kubiak) to the bottom (Players). There's a sense of "Gosh darn, we're gettin' our stuff together and we'll get there soon! Just hold on, everybody! We're a'comin..."

Grates on some people's nerves.
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Old 03-24-2011   #142
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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But we know what happened to Bledsoe after he left New England. There is no reason to believe he would have done any different in New England.

dalemurphy is saying had Bledsoe not got hurt, and they found Brady, who knows what could have happened.

They were successful with Bledsoe, but Bledsoe was never going to win the SB at that time (I believe he got pretty injury prone & shell shocked).

Brady may have disappeared into obscurity (I believe he was third on the depth chart) and maybe out of the league.

We don't know one way or the other. What we do know, is that two QBs got hurt before Brady took the field.

That wasn't an example of a well managed, hiring the best people kind of thing.

Same with Belichick..... I can't remember the specifics, but wasn't he supposed to go to the Jets????? but decided to go to New England instead?

Not because Kraft was the guy he wanted to work for, or because he offered more money, but because Belichick was upset about something or other?
Brady was no. 2 on the roster when Bledsoe got hurt. Brady was drafted in 2000 and started in the 2001 season.

Don't forget Bledsoe played QB in the AFC Championship game that year when Brady got hurt, so I'm not sure about him being shell-shocked. He performed when called upon and they went to the Super Bowl as a result.
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Old 03-24-2011   #143
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Originally Posted by GP View Post
What's interesting is that it appears there is a sector of people who think success isn't entirely or exclusively earned, but rather it's in conjunction with good fortune. Luck, good fortune, a series of circumstantial events. Fate.

This explains why some are a little bit more "chill" as it pertains to whether a coach should be fired or not.

I'm not saying that the Rabitt's Foot gang doesn't think Kubiak should have been fired--A lot of them have said that he should have been fired. But I think it explains their willingness to not get their panties in a bunch like the Soapers have over the deal. Too many factors involved, possibly, to say it was this or that (exclusively).

THEORY: Soapers think the end result is a sum total of the efforts of the people in charge of managing, planning, coaching, and playing the game of football. Rabbit Footers think that an element outside the control of man is linked to the end result (in addition to managing, planning, etc.).

This could explain why each side is entrenched against the other so often. On one side, there are those who think you can rise above and conquer any obstacle in your path--It's you vs. the world, find a way to adapt and overcome. On the other side of the aisle, there's a group who indeed values all of those ideals yet also thinks there's a certain ceiling you reach pertaining to the element of "What if Drew Bledsoe was never injured?"

My reasoning dictates that it was inevitable that Brady was going to get a shot. In the NFL, things seem to level themselves out pretty well. The NFL has always held intrugue for me because it's a place where everyone figures out fairly quickly who has the goods and who doesn't--The only squelching of talent seemingly arises either out of injury to the upward-trending athlete (Bo Jackson), trouble with the law (Burress), just flat out leaving the game altogether (Barry Sanders, Glen Coffe, etc.), or an owner and/or coach/GM who falls in love with the starter and doesn't have the good sense to see that the 2nd or 3rd string guy is the better option.

Even in the face of all those things I listed above, the best in the NFL seemingly find a way to rise to the top. One way or another, whether it's in camp, preseason games, injuries, a contract dispute and subsequent trading/releasing of the player, etc....all roads lead to the guy with the best talent getting his shot at some point or another.

To me, this renders the "What if Drew Bledsoe had never been injured" scenarios a bit of a moot point. What if Jimmy Johnson had never become a coach at all, what if he was a tire salesman instead? What if there wasn't an NFL at all? What if, what if, what if, etc. I think there is certainly something to the idea that a good bounce here, or a bad call by a ref there, can impact the end result.

I just think nothing of what I have seen from the Texans has shown me that they have a smidgen of ability to test the top tier of the NFL and truly challenge those teams in a one-on-one gameday situation for a chance at a SB ring. The offense? Maybe. Yet they still are a tricky group to rely upon when you look at 2010's efforts all season long.

I think we're a team that doesn't know how to deal with adversity and unfortunate bounces to the point of taking it by the tail and just throwing it out of the entire stadium. No killer instinct, IMO. No do-or-die persona, IMO. And I think that eminates from the top (McNair) to the middle (Kubiak) to the bottom (Players). There's a sense of "Gosh darn, we're gettin' our stuff together and we'll get there soon! Just hold on, everybody! We're a'comin..."

Grates on some people's nerves.
For once i actually agree with you...mostly anyway. But any champion & near-champion for that matter will tell you that with all that talent & preparation you have to have some "lucky bounces" to get you through or that kill you. It's just a merely a matter of when that luck decides to present itself. How much of that factors into any given season depends.

There is absolutely no way you'll be able to convince me or anyone else that Eli Manning escaping from that sack & Tyree catching that ball on his frickin helmet was something they prepared for, or that Eli Manning & Tyree were just that good...Tyree's out of the league now & Eli Manning hasn't been able to duplicate that kind of end of season run since that year.

The 98' Vikings...everyone just knew they were going to the superbowl that year. Sure, ATL played them tough, but now their kicker, who hadn't missed all year was about to seal the deal with a 40 yd. chipshot...oh wait, he just missed though. Coincidentally the Vikings' best defensive player, Jon Randle, got knocked out of that game early. You don't think that Gary Anderson catching a case of the shanks and Jon Randle being sidelined early in that game wasn't some of the most timely luck ever for ATL ever?

Again, i'm not saying that teams win largely b/c of luck but, you catch my drift but lets not dismiss it all together.

All of that being said, the texans' issues aren't all attributed to luck or any 1 thing, rather a meld of 1-3 different things depending on how you want to look at it imo.
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Old 03-24-2011   #144
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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That is a jacked up number of what ifs. Schaub may not be playing if it weren't for the Rosencopter. I mean this happens every season. The following seasons of Patriot success was not due to all of those things. Kraft was successful before that season. Those things happening were fortunate but EVERY year stuff happens where guys get hurt and other guys step up. Kraft has the right people in place and manages the team better than the McNair does the Texans. This isn't 9 degrees of Kevin Bacon where one team is lucky and has X,Y,Z happen to have their future set and the other is run the same but has bad luck. Brady was there because they drafted him.

This is just tiring.
We wouldn't have Schaub at all if Vick had been arrested earlier!
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Old 03-24-2011   #145
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Based upon Kraft's modus operandi, I think it is fair to say that he would not have lived with five years of mediocre results from Kubiak.

Carroll won the division and won the first playoff game in his first year.

They went to the playoffs and lost his second season.

He was fired after 8-8 in his third season.

Based upon this history, to act like Kraft would have kept Kubiak after five years of mediocrity is just being obtuse.

Nobody knows exactly what he would have done, and I did not make that claim. But deductive reasoning from history can lead a person to believe one scenario is simply more plausible than the other. Do YOU honestly think Kraft would tolerate five years of 37-43 Kubiak?
Maybe I'm missing something, but i don't believe anyone has said anything to remotely infer that Kraft would have kept Kubiak after five years.

There is also nothing (presented in this thread anyway) to suggest he wouldn't have if he were inMcNair's specific situation.

I don't know what was going on in McNairs head, but just trying to postulate why he kept Kubiak, maybe McNair reset the clock when the Texans got to 8-8 in 2008.

What are the odds that Kubiak promised more than that in just three seasons (of course that would be considering he was not given a playoff team).

I can understand McNair giving Kubiak a pass for the first three years, just to get the team to a competitive state.

While not a play-off team, it could be argued that Kubiak coached a team as good as any team in the NFL since then, and failed. I think that is definitely comparable to Kraft firing Carroll after Three years, despite a play-off appearance.....

Only it hasn't been three years. 2011 would be three years with Kubiak coaching a team that should make the play-offs.

Again, not that I believe that is what happened, nor do I have inside info as to what McNair is thinking, I'm only saying it is plausible.
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Old 03-24-2011   #146
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Maybe I'm missing something...
Yes, you are missing something.
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Old 03-24-2011   #147
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Yes, you are missing something.
Agreed
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Old 03-24-2011   #148
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Originally Posted by HoustonFrog View Post
That is a jacked up number of what ifs. Schaub may not be playing if it weren't for the Rosencopter. I mean this happens every season. The following seasons of Patriot success was not due to all of those things. Kraft was successful before that season. Those things happening were fortunate but EVERY year stuff happens where guys get hurt and other guys step up. Kraft has the right people in place and manages the team better than the McNair does the Texans. This isn't 9 degrees of Kevin Bacon where one team is lucky and has X,Y,Z happen to have their future set and the other is run the same but has bad luck. Brady was there because they drafted him.

This is just tiring.
No, only one that matters. If Brady never started that year, the Patriots would not have 4 championships (or whatever they have).

And while they were successful prior to that, it's not like they weren't in thought of as the historically successful franchise we think of today. They didn't be log in the same conversation as the Steelers, or Packers, 49ers, or even Cowboys. They had several years of mediocrity themselves.
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Old 03-24-2011   #149
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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No, only one that matters. If Brady never started that year, the Patriots would not have 4 championships (or whatever they have).

And while they were successful prior to that, it's not like they weren't in thought of as the historically successful franchise we think of today. They didn't be log in the same conversation as the Steelers, or Packers, 49ers, or even Cowboys. They had several years of mediocrity themselves.
I take that back, it appears the Pats have known nothing but success sine The Kraft Group took ownership in 1994.
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Old 03-25-2011   #150
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

I did look over one part of the article of Mcnair's quotes. When he said that they've identified who they believe will help them in FA and that they will go after those guys. So atleast he stated that.

Now my thing about that is, if you've identified them and you know they will help your team, now I need to see you go ahead and win the bidding war on those guys and get as many of them in as possible.
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Old 03-25-2011   #151
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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I did look over one part of the article of Mcnair's quotes. When he said that they've identified who they believe will help them in FA and that they will go after those guys. So atleast he stated that.

Now my thing about that is, if you've identified them and you know they will help your team, now I need to see you go ahead and win the bidding war on those guys and get as many of them in as possible.
How do we know they haven't been winning those bidding wars though? After all, it is the guys they think will help them. To my knowledge, the only guys that we know they lost out on in bidding wars were Orlando Pace (if he was even seriously thinking about coming here) & Bodden; 1 wasn't nearly the player he once was & the other tore up his knee before the season started so...
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Old 03-25-2011   #152
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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How do we know they haven't been winning those bidding wars though? After all, it is the guys they think will help them. To my knowledge, the only guys that we know they lost out on in bidding wars were Orlando Pace (if he was even seriously thinking about coming here) & Bodden; 1 wasn't nearly the player he once was & the other tore up his knee before the season started so...
Well that's kind of what I'm saying here though. If these are guys that you KNOW are going to help our team, that means you've done some research which also means you should be able to or show that you did everything possible and more to obtain those players. So now there is no excuse for not getting these players.

Like everyone said and like the sign says in the locker room "Deeds, Not Words".
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Old 03-25-2011   #153
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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I did look over one part of the article of Mcnair's quotes. When he said that they've identified who they believe will help them in FA and that they will go after those guys. So atleast he stated that.

Now my thing about that is, if you've identified them and you know they will help your team, now I need to see you go ahead and win the bidding war on those guys and get as many of them in as possible.
Like a "silent" auction..........we will never know. Claims of phantom bids on phantom players so far.
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Old 03-25-2011   #154
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Well that's kind of what I'm saying here though. If these are guys that you KNOW are going to help our team, that means you've done some research which also means you should be able to or show that you did everything possible and more to obtain those players. So now there is no excuse for not getting these players.

Like everyone said and like the sign says in the locker room "Deeds, Not Words".
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Like a "silent" auction..........we will never know. Claims of phantom bids on phantom players so far.
What CnD said - we will never know their deeds in all likelihood. And yes there are plenty of "excuses" or reasons for not getting players. You are willing to pay $3 mil and someone else offers $8 mil in stupid money. The player wants the entire contract guaranteed. The player just doesn't like Houston. All of the player's family lives in Florida and Miami makes an offer. It's Innegan and he doesn't want AJ to punk him in practice every day. Whatever. There are lots of things beyond a team's control.
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Old 03-25-2011   #155
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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What CnD said - we will never know their deeds in all likelihood. And yes there are plenty of "excuses" or reasons for not getting players. You are willing to pay $3 mil and someone else offers $8 mil in stupid money. The player wants the entire contract guaranteed. The player just doesn't like Houston. All of the player's family lives in Florida and Miami makes an offer. It's Innegan and he doesn't want AJ to punk him in practice every day. Whatever. There are lots of things beyond a team's control.
Honestly, I think that if the Texans were offering all these players they would make it known.

I don't recall them being super secretive when bringing in Bodden last year...

Maybe they wouldn't disclose the details of what is being offered, but I really don't see why they would be so secretive about who they are going after...

I don't recall one time that we have signed a free agent and it just popped up out of nowhere...Seems like we always have some kinds of heads up...even when they bring in FA's during the season, we tend to know that they are interested in them before they sign...

Either way...It doesn't exactly make them look great at getting FA talent...

They either suck at convincing guys to come here/aren't offering enough money -or- they just aren't as active as one would be lead to believe.

Based on McNair saying that they "aren't going to do something crazy", I'm inclined to believe that they probably aren't as aggressive. Maybe that's a good thing, maybe not. But I just don't believe that they are doing all they can behind the scenes and we just don't know about the players they are going after.

Last edited by Rey; 03-25-2011 at 11:04 AM.
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Old 03-25-2011   #156
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Agreed
Yes, it appears that way.
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Old 03-25-2011   #157
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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What CnD said - we will never know their deeds in all likelihood. And yes there are plenty of "excuses" or reasons for not getting players. You are willing to pay $3 mil and someone else offers $8 mil in stupid money. The player wants the entire contract guaranteed. The player just doesn't like Houston. All of the player's family lives in Florida and Miami makes an offer. It's Innegan and he doesn't want AJ to punk him in practice every day. Whatever. There are lots of things beyond a team's control.
You have spun this same excuse on behalf of the Texans management for over three years now and probably longer than that before I got here. It's the same typical excuse over and over like Groundhog Day. This whole "We don't know what they have tried or not tried" is really tiring and actually false, because it's very well known what teams all over the league are doing.

When teams are out there talking to other players or trying to negotiate trades it gets reported. Websites all over the place like PFT, Sporting News, and Rotoworld and all sorts of other media outlets report what teams are doing what and who they're talking to. The fact that you're still using this line to excuse the Texans management either tells me that you've never paid any attention to these sites or that you feel like you have to excuse Smithiaknair at all costs. But to sit here and say that we don't know about all this stuff is factually incorrect, because I hear about what teams are doing all around the league and the Texans are always a team that is silent practically while other teams like the Eagles, Pats, Cowboys, Giants, Jets, and a few other teams are constantly moving and shaking and in the mix of trying to improve their teams. We constantly stand pat and build through the draft and our management has said that before many times as well. So please stop saying "well we don't know and we have no idea", because we do know because it gets reported and the Texans are never in any kind of reports for anything worthy of conversation around the league hardly. The minor reports that you do hear about are only for small time barely up to par average players that we pick up that only people in here would even talk about. But it's very well known almost all of the time when teams are trying to negotiate with other teams for trades or to bring in other players that are pretty good. Player's agents leak this stuff all of the time and reporters report this stuff constantly because it's their job.
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Old 03-25-2011   #158
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Player's agents leak this stuff all of the time and reporters report this stuff constantly because it's their job.
Bingo.

It's not really a one way street with this stuff.

Player's agents leak this stuff so they can drive up the asking price from other clubs.

Even if the Texans wanted to keep this stuff secret (for reasons unbeknown to me), they would have to be like freaking KGB...
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Old 03-25-2011   #159
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Bingo.

It's not really a one way street with this stuff.

Player's agents leak this stuff so they can drive up the asking price from other clubs.

Even if the Texans wanted to keep this stuff secret (for reasons unbeknown to me), they would have to be like freaking KGB...
Yeah, for some reason there is still a crew in here that tries to use this same line and excuse every off season for Smithiaknair saying that we don't know what they're doing and we have no idea who they might have talked to and that's just straight bull. I read Rotoworld regularly and they report every single thing imaginable with every NFL team there is. That's their job. The Texans are practically ghosts on those main sites that report stuff. I know who the main teams are that are constantly moving and shaking and trying to improve their teams. It's all over the place if you just study what's going on with the NFL and know where to look.

The fact is that we have probably the worst GM in the league that should have never became a GM and he's just Kubiak's boy. Smith has never shown himself to be a savvy negotiator with other teams. He's very comfortable building through the draft and they've only said that like 100 times over the last 5 years. To keep saying that "we don't know" is just "excuse building" at this point for a regime that still hasn't delivered that some folks still think can deliver, but under these tactics or lack thereof I'd say, it's a horribly flawed strategy that will get us nowhere.
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Old 03-25-2011   #160
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

Only problem is we aren't seeing or hearing about them persuing people and that is namely because of the asking price. We let go of our two starting Safeties and yet we don't even look at OJ Atogwe (sp)? Why? Player wise he has all the credentials that you want in a safety who has played in the league. That leaves only one reason - price? We don't even hear a "Hey we tried but he didn't like our price" instead we hear "We know who we are targeting" and "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"
Which to mean translates into we are going to go for a decent player at a decent price instead of a game changing player for a little higher.

The whole building through the draft excuse should've gone out the window long time ago. IMO opinion you got those core players you wanted through the draft at every position so now it's time to add some super star talent to the mix:

WR - AJ drafted
RB - UDFA Foster (got lucky there)
QB - Schaub (used a couple of 2nds to get him)
OL - Brown, and Winston (bookend tackles)
DL - Mario
LB - Ryans and Cushing
CB - The ones you drafted sucked
Safeties - Never addressed this before and we've sucked ever since.

Time to add some veterans that are better than decent.
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