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Old 03-23-2011   #81
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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And that's why I'd be Ok with shopping Mario, to dump the impending BIG contract he's going to command.

In addition, I would have let Owen Daniels go. I don't want any back-and-forth wars over this issue either. Let me be clear: I think the world of OD. He is a key cog in the offense, no doubt. But we're at a point, IMO, where we have to decide what parts are essential and which parts are luxuries. IMO, the serious weapons of Schaub, Foster, Ward, Tate (hopefully), AJ, and the relatively adequate supporting role players of Dreesen/Graham/Casey/Walter/DA/JJ, I think OD is someone we could have afforded to lose.

Trading Mario Williams, and I'm bracing for the flood of heckling that will ensue from this theory here, gets us potentially another defensive line player who fits a 3-4 better. It might even get us a draft pick or two. And it rids us of the impending mammoth-sized deal he's going to want in order to stay on the sucky Texans team for perhapd the remainder of his career.

Those are two players, IMO, who can leave here and gain us a Pro Bowl caliber CB and a replacement player or two on the d-line (and draft picks).

Heck, we should have (or "could have," might be the better term) tried to sign and trade OD. The tender on him was going to be too high, but we could have packaged him appropriately for perhaps a lower draft pick or two. By grabbing a few extra draft picks, you then parlay THOSE extra picks by packaging them and trading up with a team on draft day.

At the end of the day, we are not seeing anything CREATIVE or DYNAMIC by McNair. It seems to be the standard to secure something that's not going to rock the boat, and then hold onto it for dear life as if the whole space-time continuum might be thrown completely off if we did.

Stability and comfort are ruling the day. Bob is convinced that it's "baby steps" that will win the race. This isn't a 401K, it's 16 games and then hopefully three more wins for the ring. His whole ideology is trickling down through everything, upon the "implementators" and to then to the players themselves. All of them are convinced that we'll have another game to do better, and another season to get there. It's been drilled into their subconscious by virtue of the big man himself.

Thus, it will take the most perfect storm for this team to overcome the genetic code set forth by its owner. This is why few people on here are hopeful, and why those same people aren't playing along with what Bob says. Lucky's assertion that Bob should be quiet is the most prudent thing that's been said on here thus far.

GP, you make good arguments. I just don't agree with a lot of them. LOL.

I was on board with letting OD go, for sure, but I think they ended up getting him for excellent value. So, I'm on board for keeping him now. I would certainly be interested in trading Mario. After all, he's the second highest paid player on the team but he's not even the best DE (that's Antonio Smith, by the way).. Given the CBA issues, though, it is very unlikely he can be dealt before this season. Any deal would almost have to include draft picks due to his value and the difficulty of trading multiple players under contract (due to salary cap ramifications). Even if we trade Mario before the season, he would still count over $5 million against this year's cap because of his signing bonus. With jobs on the line, the Texans won't be shopping Mario for 2012 draft picks. So, he's not going anywhere.

I tend to agree with you that the organizational structure is flawed. I'm just more hopeful about things changing. As a matter of a fact, I'm convinced they determined after this season to be more aggressive in FA. It really sucks that the CBA haulted FA or we would already know if I was right or wrong.
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Old 03-23-2011   #82
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Why it's not your $$$$. Unless you're BoB.

I really dont care if he signs FA's or not. I just wanta great product on the field and so far for a decade under McNairs leadership the Texans have = success at the bank and fail on the field.

I dont understand why a fan wouldn't want his owner to bring in the best players in FA. Because teams that have the best talent usually win.

Why wouldn't you want an owner who like Snyder who altough he hasn't been successful puts his $$$$ where his mouth is, Unlike BoB who for the last 3 yrs has been saying this is a playoff team. But when they fail to achieve what was his stated goal. He not only doesn't fire his GM and HC. He re-ups them. Things like this make me ? his comittment to winning.
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Old 03-23-2011   #83
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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BINGO. We can debate FA signings until we are blue in the face, but unless we have great people at GM and HC, the organization will continue to flounder in it's mediocrity.



huh?

I wonder about your NFL knowledge sometimes. You do realize that Bob Kraft bought the team in 1994 and the team was in Super Bowl XXXI a few years later? How is that "a series of fortunate events to begin his success in New England"??? Dude's team was in the playoffs FOUR times before he hired Bill Belichick.

Kraft fired Pete Carroll after going to the playoffs for two seaons. He fired him after an 8-8 season!!! How the heck do you even try to compare this owner to McNair, whose embracing of mediocrity is the exact opposite? Kraft never would have extended Kubiak's contract, hired a noob GM, and then kept them after regressing and no playoff appearances!

There is absolutely no valid comparison between the Patriots and Texans or Robert Kraft and Bob McNair. I find the subject to be goofy, to put it politely.
I wasn't comparing McNair to Kraft. come on! I was just making the point that variables beyone anyone's control help shape history. Kraft wouldn't be seen in the same light as he is if not for a series of rather extraordinary events. That doesn't mean I don't think he's an excellent owner or that I think McNair would be equally successful not given those variables.
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Old 03-23-2011   #84
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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I wasn't comparing McNair to Kraft. come on! I was just making the point that variables beyone anyone's control help shape history. Kraft wouldn't be seen in the same light as he is if not for a series of rather extraordinary events. That doesn't mean I don't think he's an excellent owner or that I think McNair would be equally successful not given those variables.
Bullpoop. Kraft hired the best people he could find and held them accountable. Your previous statement reveals ignorance about him as an owner. He was successful before those "rather extraordinary events" as you refer to them.
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Old 03-23-2011   #85
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Bullpoop. Kraft hired the best people he could find and held them accountable. Your previous statement reveals ignorance about him as an owner. He was successful before those "rather extraordinary events" as you refer to them.
I did not say he was unsuccessful, or even hint at that. If not for those series of events, I doubt, though, people would see the Patriots as the premier NFL franchise.

What would happen to the Pats' and Tom Brady if the officials hadn't stolen that playoff game away from Oakland. If Brady fumbled the playoffs away and never led the game-tying and game-winning drive... and, if Adam Vinateri had not made those two impossible kicks because he was not put in position to do so... and, therefore did not kick a 48yd field goal in the Superbowl to win the game (because he wasn't there)... Are you still confident the Patroits would have been to 3 other Superbowls and Tom Brady would be a sure-fire HOF QB? I don't know what would've happened.

Brady, Belicheck, Polian, Vinateri, Kraft all deserve credit for what they've done. But, to deny that some of their success resulted from things beyond their control, is naive (to say the least).
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Old 03-23-2011   #86
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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I did not say he was unsuccessful, or even hint at that. If not for those series of events, I doubt, though, people would see the Patriots as the premier NFL franchise.

What would happen to the Pats' and Tom Brady if the officials hadn't stolen that playoff game away from Oakland. If Brady fumbled the playoffs away and never led the game-tying and game-winning drive... and, if Adam Vinateri had not made those two impossible kicks because he was not put in position to do so... and, therefore did not kick a 48yd field goal in the Superbowl to win the game (because he wasn't there)... Are you still confident the Patroits would have been to 3 other Superbowls and Tom Brady would be a sure-fire HOF QB? I don't know what would've happened.

Brady, Belicheck, Polian, Vinateri, Kraft all deserve credit for what they've done. But, to deny that some of their success resulted from things beyond their control, is naive (to say the least).
They were in the AFC Championship Game. I'm pretty sure they would have continued their next seasons as a top team with top management, coaches and players and probably had SB success. I mean you could play this game all day. What is Jackie Smith hadn't have dropped the TD from Staubach..would they then be the team of the 70s. The Tuck Rule sucks but it was the rule. I hate what if games because it allows people to imagine 5 years of the Texans being a few plays from yearly playoff players.

Also "things beyond their control" do not include "making" kicks your deem impossible, leading game winning drives or winning SBs. Those are talent and skill. The Tuck Rule might have been out of their hands but they were still in the AFC Championship driving.
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Old 03-23-2011   #87
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Look, I would be excited if the Texans signed Nnambi. How could I not be? He's very good. But, I think the smartest approaching, looking at this free agent market, is to target some guys below him. Personally, I think Johnathan Joseph and Brandon Carr have a good chance to be better than Nnambi over the next 5 years, simply because of their age and the fact that they are quite gifted and have proven to be very good.

With the Texans fortunes, I would be terrified Nnambi would blow out a knee in training camp and be lost for the season. While that is not a good argument for not signing a draft pick, it does touch on the realities of the NFL. With the realities of injuries, it is often better to strengthen depth and add 3 or 4 talented players to a team rather than grab one, single player in hopes that his presence creates a chain reaction for the rest of the defense... what happens when he gets hurt?
I get what you're saying.

But you cant live in the fear of what ifs.

to be successful in any business (except the NFL) you have to take some chances.

Unless you've done some insider trading with your Enron stocks and there's still the chance you could get caught.
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Old 03-23-2011   #88
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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They were in the AFC Championship Game. I'm pretty sure they would have continued their next seasons as a top team with top management, coaches and players and probably had SB success. I mean you could play this game all day. What is Jackie Smith hadn't have dropped the TD from Staubach..would they then be the team of the 70s. The Tuck Rule sucks but it was the rule. I hate what if games because it allows people to imagine 5 years of the Texans being a few plays from yearly playoff players.

Also "things beyond their control" do not include "making" kicks your deem impossible, leading game winning drives or winning SBs. Those are talent and skill. The Tuck Rule might have been out of their hands but they were still in the AFC Championship driving.

1st- It wasn't the AFC Championship game. It was the divisional round game.

2nd- They didn't make the playoffs the next season. How would the team, organization feel about Tom Brady if he'd never won a playoff game, fumbled one away, and had the struggles that he did have the following season?
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Old 03-23-2011   #89
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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I get what you're saying.

But you cant live in the fear of what ifs.

to be successful in any business (except the NFL) you have to take some chances.

Unless you've done some insider trading with your Enron stocks and there's still the chance you could get caught.
I agree. But, I think there is a prudent way of doing it. I don't think it is most prudent to swing for home runs like Dave Kingman. I'd rather see a more thoughtful approach. That being said, they have definitely made some mistakes with inactivity in FA the past few seasons. I just don't agree that the correction to make would be to spend $100 million on a 30 year old CB.
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Old 03-23-2011   #90
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Check out GP's post from above.

There are ways to open up cap room to sign the best players if you want to.

Look at the Jets, they've been major players in FA for the last 3yrs. Because they know how to manage the cap.

Not coincidently they've made it to the AFC championship game 2 yrs in a row.

They were at the same starting point as the Texans 3 yrs ago. Maybe even worse because they didn't have a QB. This is an example of how agressive management can improve your team. It's also something BoB is either incapable or unwilling to learn.
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Old 03-23-2011   #91
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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1st- It wasn't the AFC Championship game. It was the divisional round game.

2nd- They didn't make the playoffs the next season. How would the team, organization feel about Tom Brady if he'd never won a playoff game, fumbled one away, and had the struggles that he did have the following season?
Even better. So they won that game, beat the Steelers and then beat the Greatest show on turf. That isn't flukey or luck. It is a what if scenario in your head. They still had the players and organization in place the next years. Sorry but this is assinine to even think this way. It is exactly how people get 6-10 teams into the playoffs. What if Franco Harris didn't catch that ball out of midair or it was called incomplete?What if Renfro was said to have both feet down?What if the Seahawks didn't have 10 unfortunate calls against them in the SB? It didn't happen and Kraft didn't luck into his string of SBs.

And by the way, the missed the playoffs at 9-7 and then ripped off 14-2, 14-2, 10-6, 12-4, 16-0. All that would not have disappeared in this magic scenario. Just like Aso wouldn't get hurt because he is a Texan so we should sign 3 Jaques Reeves clones.
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Old 03-23-2011   #92
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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I agree. But, I think there is a prudent way of doing it. I don't think it is most prudent to swing for home runs like Dave Kingman. I'd rather see a more thoughtful approach. That being said, they have definitely made some mistakes with inactivity in FA the past few seasons. I just don't agree that the correction to make would be to spend $100 million on a 30 year old CB.
Since you're being picky on others, he's still 29. (till July 6)

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Old 03-23-2011   #93
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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I did not say he was unsuccessful, or even hint at that. If not for those series of events, I doubt, though, people would see the Patriots as the premier NFL franchise.

What would happen to the Pats' and Tom Brady if the officials hadn't stolen that playoff game away from Oakland. If Brady fumbled the playoffs away and never led the game-tying and game-winning drive... and, if Adam Vinateri had not made those two impossible kicks because he was not put in position to do so... and, therefore did not kick a 48yd field goal in the Superbowl to win the game (because he wasn't there)... Are you still confident the Patroits would have been to 3 other Superbowls and Tom Brady would be a sure-fire HOF QB? I don't know what would've happened.

Brady, Belicheck, Polian, Vinateri, Kraft all deserve credit for what they've done. But, to deny that some of their success resulted from things beyond their control, is naive (to say the least).
Look, I never disputed your point that the Patriots benefited from some great luck. But, that has been the case throughout NFL history. The "Immaculate Reception" began a run of four championships for the Steelers in the '70's, "The Catch" for the 49ers runs in the '80's, and so on. We can always find examples of good luck for most successful teams. I never disputed that idea, so save your naive blast for those that argue against that specific point (which wasn't your original point, btw).

I was merely taking you to task for a blatant incorrect statement. YOU said: "Robert Kraft needed a series of fortunate events to begin his success in New England".

Then you say that you "did not say he was unsuccessful, or even hint at that."

Which is it? You can't have it both ways. Your statements contradict each other.

Kraft was clearly successful well before the events that you refer to in your original statement. History supports the fact that he was already successful before those "series of fortunate events".

Quit the straw man argument. I'm not going to be distracted by it.
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Old 03-23-2011   #94
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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*SIGHS* At this point, The guy could come out & say what everyone wanted to hear & would recieve criticism for it.
Exactly right. So the best thing to do would be to shut his yap, especially when fans are pissed about the work stoppage. When anything you say will foster resentment, say nothing. Seems logical to me.
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Old 03-23-2011   #95
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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I get what you're saying.

But you cant live in the fear of what ifs.

to be successful in any business (except the NFL) you have to take some chances.

Unless you've done some insider trading with your Enron stocks and there's still the chance you could get caught.
I see what youd did right there...LOL. Nicely done.
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Old 03-23-2011   #96
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Exactly right. So the best thing to do would be to shut his yap, especially when fans are pissed about the work stoppage. When anything you say will foster resentment, say nothing. Seems logical to me.
Agreed! I'm so frustrated with the entire NFL right now...they can all kiss my ass. Every last one of them should shut the hell up and get busy on an actual CBA rather than spewing garbage. Do they actually think we're going to believe them?! And, if I hear any of them, players or owners, speak of "it's about the fans" I'm going to mentally *****-slap them and dislike them instantaneously

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Old 03-23-2011   #97
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
Kraft fired Pete Carroll after going to the playoffs for two seaons. He fired him after an 8-8 season!!! How the heck do you even try to compare this owner to McNair, whose embracing of mediocrity is the exact opposite? Kraft never would have extended Kubiak's contract, hired a noob GM, and then kept them after regressing and no playoff appearances!

There is absolutely no valid comparison between the Patriots and Texans or Robert Kraft and Bob McNair. I find the subject to be goofy, to put it politely.
He fired him after three seasons because Carroll was handed a team that had been in the SB and it got worse each year under Carroll's coaching. So no that isn't similar to Kubiak's situation at all. Of course that makes projections of what Kraft would have done based on those events unrealistic as well.
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Old 03-23-2011   #98
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Originally Posted by GP View Post
We never even gave Brees a look, IIRC. Not even a LOOK.

For every Arian Foster on this team, there's 25 Drew Brees-type players out there that the Texans just somehow aren't interested in.Here's a quote by dalemurphy I'd like to address, as well:



Yes, dale, the problem has been with implementation. By the way, who "implements" things around the Texans organization? A combination of guys, namely Rick Smith and Gary Kubiak--The two chief "implementators" of the Texans.

And who retained those two guys, dale? Yes, it was the owner. Bob McNair.

And this, IMO, is why people are just dead dog tired of whatever comes from McNair's mouth. We get it already: He's going to say what we want to hear, what seems "applaudible," and then grab your ankles and hold on for the probing maneuver.

Here's what's going to happen, IMO: We're going to have a serious sit-down with Aso...and he's going to use us to up the bidding war amongst the teams he REALLY wants to play for. Happens every time, and it happens because the guys who are "implementing" things have proven they can't get to the big game. To the Big Show. These players want the payday, and they want the ring(s) too. It's a package deal, and they're going to use us to get to those better teams who have better implementators than we do.

Therefore, Bob has a stigma to overcome. A stigma he himself created by not being smarter about the football side of operations. His own damn fault, and we're paying for it on our end. We get to sit and watch a guy try to copycat and pussyfoot his way around building a real team in the NFL.

Nothing you say can be taken seriously after the bolded..


Hyperbole at its finest....really 25 drew brees types... every year? really? Furthermore, is it really the Texans FO fault that players use them as a team to help up the ante for teams they want to play for? If anything that makes the Texans FO look better b/c what it means is that they are fielding competitive offers to these guys.
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Old 03-23-2011   #99
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
Why it's not your $$$$. Unless you're BoB.

I really dont care if he signs FA's or not. I just wanta great product on the field and so far for a decade under McNairs leadership the Texans have = success at the bank and fail on the field.

I dont understand why a fan wouldn't want his owner to bring in the best players in FA. Because teams that have the best talent usually win.

Why wouldn't you want an owner who like Snyder who altough he hasn't been successful puts his $$$$ where his mouth is, Unlike BoB who for the last 3 yrs has been saying this is a playoff team. But when they fail to achieve what was his stated goal. He not only doesn't fire his GM and HC. He re-ups them. Things like this make me ? his comittment to winning.
But what you're not understanding is that putting your money where your mouth is & fielding a competitive product are by & large independent of each other. Spending tons of money doesn't necessarily = fielding a competitive product on the field & vice versa. As many of us have shown, the most successful teams over the last 10 years (Patriots, Colts, Steelers) have been organization that didn't spend tons of money in FA or land a pepper-esque FA. Stop linking the 2 together as if 1 equals the other.
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Old 03-23-2011   #100
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Originally Posted by Mr teX View Post
But what you're not understanding is that putting your money where your mouth is & fielding a competitive product are by & large independent of each other. Spending tons of money doesn't necessarily = fielding a competitive product on the field & vice versa. As many of us have shown, the most successful teams over the last 10 years (Patriots, Colts, Steelers) have been organization that didn't spend tons of money in FA or land a pepper-esque FA. Stop linking the 2 together as if 1 equals the other.
You still don't understand the concept. No one is linking them like spending = win. But there has been links in the past to spending on TOP football players and an upgrade on a team....guys that are tops at their position. Let's also not fool ourselves that these teams don't spend money or make moves...Pats trade for Moss. They just aren't afraid to let go of guys before their time is up and replace them. All of these things are foreign here. Again I'm not advocating outbidding everyone by 5 mil to grab Aso. I'm asking to compete for him and see if he bites. Be willing to move a million or so to get a top of the line star.
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