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Old 03-22-2011   #41
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
As Icak mentioned, the heart of the issue is the quality of the free agent market. This year's market is incredibly strong. The Texans can target the 5th best CB in the market and get someone like Richard Marshall, Ike Taylor, Brent Grimes, or Brandon Carr... all depending on what your scouting department and defensive team covets. That's a flood of talent. The worst thing to do is throw gobs of money at Nnambi and miss an opportunity to get real value. Carr, for instance, is over 4 years younger than Nnambi and will likely accept a contract for half the value. That leaves the Texans money to spend in other areas, also quite stocked with talent.

As I previously mentioned, Bodden and Robinson were the top 2 FAs last season. This season they wouldn't be among the top 10, IMO... The Falcons gave Dunta a $40 million contract last year. This year, they'll likely lose their best CB (Grimes) for less money than they spent on Dunta.
I can't disagree more with the bolded. The second-echelon is what the Texans have always gotten in FA...how's that worked out so far? Improving from last to 25th in pass defense is a net gain of 7 spots, but you still suck at that point.

IMHO - There IS a time to 'pull out the pocketbook' and that's to get a guy who is as good or better than anyone at his position.
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Old 03-22-2011   #42
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
What McNair said should be applauded. That's the way we should all want the organization to run. The problem has been successful implementation.
Why should it get applauded? Just because he's talking out of his ass?? I'll believe this stuff from Mcnair when I see it. He can talk the talk, but until he walks the walk, hearing Mcnair say the stuff he did on those comments was even more funny than when Lane Kiffin did that comical speech when he was first hired as the Raiders HC and no one thought he could be successful. Mcnair has shown nothing in his history to say that he'll be aggressive to compete in free agency to fill needed holes. I'll applaud the guy when he actually does multiple things to make this better, and not in one off season, but in at least two. He's done nothing in 9 seasons thus far, so I won't expect anything from the guy until he shows a pattern that's opposite of what he has done in the past which is to stand pat and build through the draft which has been fail after fail.
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Old 03-22-2011   #43
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
Sure they have given us reason to doubt but not to lose all reason. Who are the most successful franchises around? - maybe Pittsburgh and New England, maybe throw in Indy. Do any of them go crazy in free agency? Do any of them overpay for players, even their own? No. I certainly want the Texans to be players in the free agent market when/if it happens but these remarks do not reflect a bad, aberrant or cheap philosophy.
I agree with you that not all reason should be lost. However, when you look at organizations like Pittsburgh, New England and Indy, they tend to have a long and pretty consistent history of making wise choices in their personel from the top down........frugally or otherwise. And with that, they have a reputation that attracts a steady flow of good personel at reasonable prices.

This contrasts, in general, pretty significantly to the Texans' history thus far. Players, especially, are not tearing down the doors to come to this organization.
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Old 03-22-2011   #44
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Originally Posted by Texecutioner View Post
Why should it get applauded? Just because he's talking out of his ass?? I'll believe this stuff from Mcnair when I see it. He can talk the talk, but until he walks the walk, hearing Mcnair say the stuff he did on those comments was even more funny than when Lane Kiffin did that comical speech when he was first hired as the Raiders HC and no one thought he could be successful. Mcnair has shown nothing in his history to say that he'll be aggressive to compete in free agency to fill needed holes. I'll applaud the guy when he actually does multiple things to make this better, and not in one off season, but in at least two. He's done nothing in 9 seasons thus far, so I won't expect anything from the guy until he shows a pattern that's opposite of what he has done in the past which is to stand pat and build through the draft which has been fail after fail.
He did give us a team again
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Old 03-22-2011   #45
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Originally Posted by Texecutioner View Post
The Texans have never aggressively moved to fill any holes in the market place that they were presented. Just the thought of that is laughable. We're by far one of the worst teams in the at filling holes in free agency. Hell, we've really never done that with quality players other than maybe Kevin Walter. Everyone else has been other team's poor cast offs that had no real demand on the open market or were average run of the mill players.
I get the inevitable frustration of an organization that hasn't been to the playoffs in nine seasons. However, this charge is not accurate, IMO.

1st- When Smith/Kubiak took over the mess in 2006, there was so little talent that everyone knew a major overhaul was in order. Therefore, obviousley the 1st season or two, plugging a hole by spending big on a veteran FA doesn't make a ton of sense.

2nd- let me introduce you to a hole-plugger: Matt Schaub. In your estimation, he isn't a quality player? You don't think he had some demand in the open market?... Also, Antonio Smith was the best defensive player on the team last season and he was a significantly pursued FA before the '09 season.

3rd- Here's what the front office did with limited resources (due to significant cap ramifications from the wasteful spending of Charlie Casserly): Matt Schaub, Vonta Leach, Joel Dreessen, Mike Brisiel, Andre Davis, Rashod Butler... pretty good haul, everything considered, I would think.

4th- Due largely to the CBA situation, the past two seasons' FA market have been putrid. Which is unfortunate, since these were the two seasons the Texans felt a couple FA moves could make the difference for them. They tried to sign Bodden, but he wanted to stay in NE and the Texans didn't think him worth a $25 million contract. They were right, by the way.
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Old 03-22-2011   #46
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Owner Bob McNair said the Texans will not make employees take pay reductions or work furloughs unless games are canceled and the team has to refund season-ticket revenue.
Good deal. I was wondering how the Texans were going to handle the lock-out, and I kinda' figured that McNair would take this position. Nice. He's a classy man, and this would not be a good PR move for a very PR sensitive organization. Besides, season ticket sales are still solid, so no need to panic.

As far as the rest of what he said...m'eh, nothing new under the sun. A tiger doesn't change it's stripes, and perpetual mediocrity is...well...perpetual.
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Old 03-22-2011   #47
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Originally Posted by Texecutioner View Post
Why should it get applauded? Just because he's talking out of his ass?? I'll believe this stuff from Mcnair when I see it. He can talk the talk, but until he walks the walk, hearing Mcnair say the stuff he did on those comments was even more funny than when Lane Kiffin did that comical speech when he was first hired as the Raiders HC and no one thought he could be successful. Mcnair has shown nothing in his history to say that he'll be aggressive to compete in free agency to fill needed holes. I'll applaud the guy when he actually does multiple things to make this better, and not in one off season, but in at least two. He's done nothing in 9 seasons thus far, so I won't expect anything from the guy until he shows a pattern that's opposite of what he has done in the past which is to stand pat and build through the draft which has been fail after fail.
I didn't say to applaud McNair. I said, "what McNair said should be applauded"... I'm defending the philosophy. It is dead on. Feel free to complain about failed implementation of the philosophy all you would like. I'm quite critical of it.

Here is something I wrote in January, from Texans Bull Blog:

Bob McNair loves to oogle the New England Patriots and Pittsburgh Steelers franchise hoping to model the Texans after them. He has been attempting to mimic the stability of those organizations for a decade now. I respect that effort. However, those organizations didnít just decide to be stable and then succeed with the people and philosophy that happened to be in place at the time. It took years and years of searching for the right combination of coaches, scouts, and front office personnel before everything fell in place for them. For Pittsburgh, their dark years were primarily in the 1950s and 1960s. Since Chuck Knoll arrived, they have had a steady and remarkable run. But, plenty of growing pains and lessons were learned by the Rooneys up to that point. Bob Kraft purchased the New England patriots in 1994. While they had some early success, it took seven years and some good fortune (Bledsoe injury, insane officiating, and an odd family squabble between Parcells and Belichek) before they found their footing. If Kraft would have decided simply to be a stable organization during Pete Carrollís tenure, would they be the exemplary franchise they are now? Smart money would say ďnoĒ. Now, having said that, it is interesting to note that Pete Carroll never had a losing season in his three years in New England. Then, when he was replaced with Belichek after his poorest season (8-8), Belichek led the Pats to a 5-11 year. Then the tide turned.

I am not suggesting that, if McNair wants similar success, that he should fire Kubiak. Iím generally glad that he didnít. What does bother me is a growing concern that Bob McNair is so focused on emulating the winning organizations that he is missing the larger picture. The NFL is not a paint-by-numbers endeavor. As I am sure Bob McNair understands most of the time, any organization with hundreds of variables (people) is a complex orchestration. Yet, what I fear is happening is that McNair is working from a two dimensional checklist of a few simplistic observations he has made regarding the Patriots and the Steelers:

1. Organizational stability (check)

2. Seldom paying premium for FAs (check)

3. As an owner, donít get too involved (check)

and now, this new one:

4. 3-4 defense (check?)

I certainly hope his thinking is not this simplistic. However, with the Wade Phillips hiring imminent even though he has not even interviewed yet, one has to wonder. After all, not only has Wade not interviewed, but I donít think a single candidate has interviewed (saying hello to Marvin Lewis on the telephone does not qualify). I know that McNair also likes Wade because he has been a successful DC and has had 30 years of experience. Still, though, those are simply labels (like a 3-4 defense is) and donít speak to the how/why Wade is the best choice to run the Texansí defense in 2011 under Gary Kubiak and with this scouting department bringing him talent and with Rick Smith running football operations (sort of). Perhaps Wade is the best choice. However, how could McNair/Kubiak/Smith possibly have any idea of that if they havenít been through an exhaustive process, including interviewing other candidatesÖ or, just sitting down and speaking to Wade for 30 minutes.
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Old 03-22-2011   #48
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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I can't disagree more with the bolded. The second-echelon is what the Texans have always gotten in FA...how's that worked out so far? Improving from last to 25th in pass defense is a net gain of 7 spots, but you still suck at that point.

IMHO - There IS a time to 'pull out the pocketbook' and that's to get a guy who is as good or better than anyone at his position.
"second echelon"?

This isn't the NBA. Nnambi isn't greater than Brent Grimes + Eric Weddle + Cullen Jenkins, though the cap impact may be similar.

Markets change due to supply. The supply in the free agent market is deep and rich. As I said, the 7th or 8th best CB is better than the top CB in last year's market. What does a single player do for an organization? Well, let's see: how successful have the Raiders been since Nnambi has been on the team?
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Old 03-22-2011   #49
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Originally Posted by Mr teX View Post
*SIGHS* At this point, The guy could come out & say what everyone wanted to hear & would recieve criticism for it......People taking things out of context just so it will fit their agenda. I know we aren't this dumb as a fan base so this is the only thing it could be.
Yeah, he could come out and say, "We won't be outbid for Aso!!"

& we still won't get the man, because he decides he wants to play for NYGiants/NYJets or the Dallas Cowboys for less money... but we'll effectively bid up the price tag.
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Old 03-22-2011   #50
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Originally Posted by nero THE zero View Post
McNair said they will not pay someone more they are worth. Given the Texans' history both in free agency and on the field, there's obviously some justified scrutiny in the front office's ability to evaluate what is "going crazy" and what is making quality and necessary additions to the team, as opposed to someone like the Packers or Colts who seem to be able to make that distinction more effectively.
Who did we lose, because we didn't offer enough money?

Who did the Packers or the Colts add, that made a difference?
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Old 03-22-2011   #51
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Originally Posted by HoustonFrog View Post
What is dumb about seeing something that is broken and making comments about it when the owner takes a similar stance? It is more ignorant to follow the "right track" mantra without having some questions after 9 years. Bob never really spoke much until this year and so far it has been a bunch of comments that don't inspire greatness....right track, not accepting bad results, thinking about Kubiaks situation despite making up his mind, owners congratulating him for losses, etc, etc. If I follow your mindset then I was dumb to ***** about Carr, Ahman Green, Casserly and Kubiak 2 years ago. So far I don't feel dumb.
How long were the Colts bad, before they finally figured it out?
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Old 03-22-2011   #52
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Old 03-22-2011   #53
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Originally Posted by Second Honeymoon View Post
But you can overpay for 2nd tier talent like Weaver, Robaire, and Green and overpay with max extension for scrubs like David Carr but when it comes to 'overpaying' for a top tier talent like an Aso, well they can't bring themselves to do that.
Specifically who & when were these top tier FAs out there, that we passed on?

'Cak's point, is that those were the best out there at the time. Not that the Texans thought they were the best out there, but the consensus. I don't know how he determined that, but that's his point.

Your point, is that the Texans failed to go after top tier FAs... who? & when?
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Old 03-22-2011   #54
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
1st- When Smith/Kubiak took over the mess in 2006, there was so little talent that everyone knew a major overhaul was in order. Therefore, obviousley the 1st season or two, plugging a hole by spending big on a veteran FA doesn't make a ton of sense.
You are aware, we're talking about 5 years right? For a team to go from joke to pretender to joke again in that time frame.... something has to have gone wrong.

How about we spend a ton on a bunch of FAs..... maybe a lot of the immaturity we saw that cost us games in 2008 & 2009 wouldn't have been an issue. Maybe we would have a solid base to launch from today, than the fertile soil of unproven potential we've been hanging our hopes on for the last 5 years.


You know I'm in for whatever.... but you have to admit some of the decisions this club has made leaves lots of room for criticism.
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3rd- Here's what the front office did with limited resources (due to significant cap ramifications from the wasteful spending of Charlie Casserly): Matt Schaub, Vonta Leach, Joel Dreessen, Mike Brisiel, Andre Davis, Rashod Butler... pretty good haul, everything considered, I would think.
I do agree with this. There's been some good, some bad.
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Old 03-22-2011   #55
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

Nothing to see here. SOS

Yes BoB's loyal fanbase has a right to ? how he goes about business as usual after a decade of failure.

BoB is going to take a larger role in the CBA negociations. That's just great.
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Old 03-22-2011   #56
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
Good deal. I was wondering how the Texans were going to handle the lock-out, and I kinda' figured that McNair would take this position. Nice. He's a classy man, and this would not be a good PR move for a very PR sensitive organization. Besides, season ticket sales are still solid, so no need to panic.

As far as the rest of what he said...m'eh, nothing new under the sun. A tiger doesn't change it's stripes, and perpetual mediocrity is...well...perpetual.
At least it shows "stability," right?
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Old 03-22-2011   #57
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
You are aware, we're talking about 5 years right? For a team to go from joke to pretender to joke again in that time frame.... something has to have gone wrong.

You know I'm in for whatever.... but you have to admit some of the decisions this club has made leaves lots of room for criticism.
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TK,

They've made many mistakes and I think I've called them out on most of them. They totally blew it going into 2009 when they ignored the safety position and relied on John Busing, Nick Ferguson, and D.Barber.

I'm just pointing out that the Texans have showed a willingness to spend significant money on FAs, as they did with Antonio Smith and a big group before that. And, there is the reality that the FA market the past two seasons has been absolutely pathetic.

If they don't acquire a good, veteran CB and other significant veteran pieces this off-season, I will be outraged... and surprised.
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Old 03-22-2011   #58
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

If they don't acquire a good (I fear the definition), veteran CB and other significant veteran pieces this off-season, the fans will be outraged... and the Texans FO will still act surprised.
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Old 03-22-2011   #59
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
"second echelon"?

This isn't the NBA. Nnambi isn't greater than Brent Grimes + Eric Weddle + Cullen Jenkins, though the cap impact may be similar.

Markets change due to supply. The supply in the free agent market is deep and rich. As I said, the 7th or 8th best CB is better than the top CB in last year's market. What does a single player do for an organization? Well, let's see: how successful have the Raiders been since Nnambi has been on the team?
That's great if you think the Texans will sign all three. You'll remind me the last time the Texans got more than one decent player at any one position in an offseason. Is Nnamdi better than any one of them? Sure he is, by a long shot.

Funny you should mention the Raiders - Did you happen to notice their passing defense rank? It's #2, we were #32 (We were #30 overall, they were #11)...tell me again how Nnamdi isn't making a difference?
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Old 03-22-2011   #60
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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That's great if you think the Texans will sign all three. You'll remind me the last time the Texans got more than one decent player at any one position in an offseason. Is Nnamdi better than any one of them? Sure he is, by a long shot.

Funny you should mention the Raiders - Did you happen to notice their passing defense rank? It's #2, we were #32 (We were #30 overall, they were #11)...tell me again how Nnamdi isn't making a difference?
Show me the playoff appearences the Raiders had with Nnambi at CB. There is a 53 man roster. So, if one player (particularly other than QB) is eating up 10% of the entire salary cap (like Nnambi did his last two seasons in Oakland) then there is either a lack of talent on the team or there soon will be. In Oakland's case, they could afford him because they didn't have a QB to pay for, nor an Andre Johnson on the offense.

Show me the well-run organization that pays elite money for free agents....

Pittsburgh... no
New England... no
Indianapolis... no

In each example, their highest paid player is consistently their homegrown QB. Perhaps it is simply a coincidence. Let's look at the teams during the salary cap era that have frequently paid top dollar for the big name free agents:

Washington Redskins (how many of you guys wanted Haynesworth? be honest)
Dallas Cowboys (gross)
Oakland Raiders (double gross)

What is the example in the salary cap era of the NFL of a team outbidding the rest of the NFL for an elite FA and it worked out well?

Don't say Deion Sanders in 1994. Even though the cap had started, the ramifications of the cap had not hit teams nor the NFL. Focus on the last 10 years, or so. Let's list Superbowl Champs:

2010: Green Bay? they got Charles Woodson at a discount after a couple poor seasons
2009: New Orleans? Brees on a discount due to injured shoulder
2008: Pittsburgh?
2007: NYGiants?
2006: Indy?
2005: Pittsburgh?
2004: New England?
2003: New England?...

I'm really not seeing the argument for offering elite money at a FA, especially when the talent pool is so rich. However, I see reasons not to:

San Fran: $80 million to Nate Clements
Washington: $100 million to Haynesworth
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