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Old 03-22-2011   #21
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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I agree in some part. And honestly, I didn't take it as he would only go after mediocre guys....you could get a Cromartie, who would fit, but he is sketchy. I was just pointing out to Dale that those 5 guys weren't guys I'd consider top FA or near the top and they overpaid. I think at some point you have to get an instant upgrade and go outside the comfort zone.
I hear you but historical context is important as well. Todd Wade was the top ranked OT FA that off-season. Anthony Weaver was the top DE FA that off-season. I believe Robaire was at the top or near it as well. Antonio Smith was the top or second DE that off-season. You can only sign what is available. Dale's point that on each there were howls of over paying accusations is correct as well. Antonio is the only one who has worked out. That is the bigger issue to me - either they aren't evaluating talent well or aren't utilizing it well or heck both. I think Wade will utilize the talent he is given well and can provide a lot of insight on evaluating D players.

McNair's comments were unseasoned oatmeal to me.
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Old 03-22-2011   #22
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

Why would anybody want to overpay for a free agent? Unless I am misunderstanding the definition of "overpay".
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Old 03-22-2011   #23
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
I hear you but historical context is important as well. Todd Wade was the top ranked OT FA that off-season. Anthony Weaver was the top DE FA that off-season. I believe Robaire was at the top or near it as well. Antonio Smith was the top or second DE that off-season. You can only sign what is available. Dale's point that on each there were howls of over paying accusations is correct as well. Antonio is the only one who has worked out. That is the bigger issue to me - either they aren't evaluating talent well or aren't utilizing it well or heck both. I think Wade will utilize the talent he is given well and can provide a lot of insight on evaluating D players.

McNair's comments were unseasoned oatmeal to me.
That should go well with his Milquetoast breakfast.
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Old 03-22-2011   #24
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

*SIGHS* At this point, The guy could come out & say what everyone wanted to hear & would recieve criticism for it......People taking things out of context just so it will fit their agenda. I know we aren't this dumb as a fan base so this is the only thing it could be.
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Old 03-22-2011   #25
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Originally Posted by dc_txtech View Post
Why would anybody want to overpay for a free agent? Unless I am misunderstanding the definition of "overpay".
Obviously no one is going to disagree with that. No one wants to "overpay" for players. But, there's no objective measurement over what a player is worth and no concrete forecast as to how effective a player will be.

McNair said they will not pay someone more they are worth. Given the Texans' history both in free agency and on the field, there's obviously some justified scrutiny in the front office's ability to evaluate what is "going crazy" and what is making quality and necessary additions to the team, as opposed to someone like the Packers or Colts who seem to be able to make that distinction more effectively.
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Old 03-22-2011   #26
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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*SIGHS* At this point, The guy could come out & say what everyone wanted to hear & would recieve criticism for it......People taking things out of context just so it will fit their agenda. I know we aren't this dumb as a fan base so this is the only thing it could be.
What is dumb about seeing something that is broken and making comments about it when the owner takes a similar stance? It is more ignorant to follow the "right track" mantra without having some questions after 9 years. Bob never really spoke much until this year and so far it has been a bunch of comments that don't inspire greatness....right track, not accepting bad results, thinking about Kubiaks situation despite making up his mind, owners congratulating him for losses, etc, etc. If I follow your mindset then I was dumb to ***** about Carr, Ahman Green, Casserly and Kubiak 2 years ago. So far I don't feel dumb.
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Old 03-22-2011   #27
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

I'm not saying overpay for anyone. I'm saying, show us you are even going to try to get the dude. Heck, everything on paper says he wouldn't want to come here but show us the fans that you are doing whatever you can to try and get someone. Lie to us, do something. Come out and say "hey we called but his agent wouldn't even answer the phone." Show us you couldn't get him and so you then went after Ike Taylor or Weddle or someone.

Instead, all we have seen is Atogwe going to Redskins and this player going there and so on. Nothing on our end.

I know we can't do nothing with all this CBA caca but when FA starts up again, show us you are doing whatever you can to make this team better.
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Old 03-22-2011   #28
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Originally Posted by dc_txtech View Post
Why would anybody want to overpay for a free agent? Unless I am misunderstanding the definition of "overpay".
Here's Revis' deal:
Quote:
Revis will sign a four-year contract, GM Mike Tannenbaum announced. He declined to discuss the amount, but a source said it's a $46 million deal, including $32 million in various guarantees.
Link

46 mil/4 yrs = 11.5m/year

If you consider that contracts for a given position go UP over time, and that Aso will likely ask for MORE than Revis, I'd consider the starting point to be 12m/yr.

Now, what if Bob McNair hears from Rick Smith that Aso is only the 3rd-best CB overall and should be paid accordingly. So, the Texans call up Aso and offer 10.5m/yr - 5 years and another team offers 12.5m/yr - 4 years. Is the OTHER team in this scenario overpaying, or are they paying what the market will bear for the services of a TOP corner? What if Aso wants 12.5 to play for the Texans and only 11.75 to play for the Steelers? Would it be stupid to 'up the ante'?

Comparisons to Weaver, Both Smiths & Wade are all a little "off"....Aso has more Pro Bowls than those guys combined...which is ZERO, Aso has 4.
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Old 03-22-2011   #29
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Originally Posted by El Tejano View Post
I'm not saying overpay for anyone. I'm saying, show us you are even going to try to get the dude. Heck, everything on paper says he wouldn't want to come here but show us the fans that you are doing whatever you can to try and get someone. Lie to us, do something. Come out and say "hey we called but his agent wouldn't even answer the phone." Show us you couldn't get him and so you then went after Ike Taylor or Weddle or someone.

Instead, all we have seen is Atogwe going to Redskins and this player going there and so on. Nothing on our end.

I know we can't do nothing with all this CBA caca but when FA starts up again, show us you are doing whatever you can to make this team better.
Right. This is what I was saying to Cak. It is one thing to have a sound philiosophy. On paper, Bob's "right way" mantra and wanting to follow long established teams is admirable. But the matra goes out the door when you keep people who can't make it happen personnel wise..Smith and Kubiak. If they can't target the right people for your money then what good does spending under the budget do. Now if you go hard at a top DB because it makes your secondary a plus instead of a minus, then people can back off because the effort and money are there. The fan mindset right now...and it is probably correct...is that Gary has told Bob that the kids from last year got some experience and seasoning and are ready for the next step with Wade as coach. Fill in some pieces from the draft and smaller FAs and they are right there. Paying for a guy who had a great playoff run or one good season is different than one of the top 2 guys in the league.
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Old 03-22-2011   #30
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Originally Posted by nero THE zero View Post
Obviously no one is going to disagree with that. No one wants to "overpay" for players. But, there's no objective measurement over what a player is worth and no concrete forecast as to how effective a player will be.

McNair said they will not pay someone more they are worth. Given the Texans' history both in free agency and on the field, there's obviously some justified scrutiny in the front office's ability to evaluate what is "going crazy" and what is making quality and necessary additions to the team, as opposed to someone like the Packers or Colts who seem to be able to make that distinction more effectively.

The problem here though is that people are only looking at this "scrutiny" from 1 vantage point. Most fans read the snippet of what he said & immediately translated it into "they aren't going to go after such & such b/c it cost too much.."..completely justifiable in thinking that. But from McNair's point of view, he's actually on point in saying what he said, given their propensity for spending money on scrubs who largely didn't deserve it. Fans however, don't acknowledge this aspect of it though.

As for the other part of your post, why then do teams fall over themselves trying to sign these big name guys if there is no "concrete forecast" on how effective they will be? If anything, that is the known commodity. Chicago didn't sign peppers to that monsterous contract largely not knowing what he was going to bring to their defense for at least the next 2-3 years. They knew exactly what he was going to bring, which is why they offered him what they did.

& although there isn't an "objective" way to determine what a player is worth, there is an established starting point & all the owners themselves decide indirectly when they sign their stars. We just dealt with this with AJ last year. When he signed his contract he was the highest paid WR in the game or right there with them. Then Miami & Arizona went nuts on Marshall & Fitzgerald's deals & all of a sudden the best WR in the game's contract looks "weak" (for lack of a better term) compared to theirs. The owners have control of these things, but the competitiveness of the league keeps driving things up. The players know this so it's nearly impossible not to overpay a FA unless you stick to your guns &/or draft really well.
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Old 03-22-2011   #31
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Originally Posted by HoustonFrog View Post
What is dumb about seeing something that is broken and making comments about it when the owner takes a similar stance? It is more ignorant to follow the "right track" mantra without having some questions after 9 years. Bob never really spoke much until this year and so far it has been a bunch of comments that don't inspire greatness....right track, not accepting bad results, thinking about Kubiaks situation despite making up his mind, owners congratulating him for losses, etc, etc. If I follow your mindset then I was dumb to ***** about Carr, Ahman Green, Casserly and Kubiak 2 years ago. So far I don't feel dumb.
Dumb in the sense that people OBVIOUSLY knows what the guy means when he make his comments, they're just choosing to ignore it b/c it doesn't go along with their agenda.
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Old 03-22-2011   #32
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Let me get this straight, you want the owner and his team to go away? And yet you still sport an an avatar supporting said team and post on a message board dedicated to them? Ok, makes sense I suppose.
It's been almost a decade since McNair cashed his first check from me. It's been a little over a year since he cashed his last check from me. This same laissez-faire act last year screwed us, so why not try it again.

In fact, let's keep the same failing regime except let's blow up the while defensive side of things. So you get all the growing pains that go along with changing schemes and personnel without actually changing the real problem, Rick and Gary. But at least the change buys Smithiaknair another year of excuses. And ultimately when they fail we will have Wade step in as 'savior' HC. The same Wade Phillips that was laughed at on this board as Cowboys coach but once he is Texans HC, people will think he is Mother Theresa.

So we have that to lookforward to.
I am a fan but enough is enough. What about AJ who has given his entire career to this franchise? Even Matt. He led potential game winning drives in like 6 or 7 losses. That shows there are inherent problems in the direction and leadership on this team.

Just bringing in a good DC isn't enough. This team has major problems and deficiencies that still have not been identified and addressed. And I don't think they are getting changed anytime soon. If last years pathetic excuse for a season didn't get Smithiak fired, what will?

I like some of the players but I just don't see this team ever doing squat under it's current leadership and direction.
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Old 03-22-2011   #33
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The thing is McNair didn't say they would only go after mediocre players and that is the way it is being spun. They may want to pursue Aso but have placed an upper value on him of $15 mil per year. If he wants $22 mil per year then yeah they shouldn't overpay like that. In a capped league there is a price to be paid for over paying. There has to be a cut-off somewhere.
But you can overpay for 2nd tier talent like Weaver, Robaire, and Green and overpay with max extension for scrubs like David Carr but when it comes to 'overpaying' for a top tier talent like an Aso, well they can't bring themselves to do that.
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Old 03-22-2011   #34
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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The problem here though is that people are only looking at this "scrutiny" from 1 vantage point. Most fans read the snippet of what he said & immediately translated it into "they aren't going to go after such & such b/c it cost too much.."..completely justifiable in thinking that. But from McNair's point of view, he's actually on point in saying what he said, given their propensity for spending money on scrubs who largely didn't deserve it. Fans however, don't acknowledge this aspect of it though.
I definitely see that PoV, but past performance doesn't guarantee future success (or vice versa). At some point, he has to trust his GM, because Bob isn't a scout. I'd love to see him open the pockets for the closest to a "sure thing" the Texans may EVER see in FA.

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Dumb in the sense that people OBVIOUSLY knows what the guy means when he make his comments, they're just choosing to ignore it b/c it doesn't go along with their agenda.
I'm not so sure about that. What exactly is "on the right track" about finishing 6-10 AFTER a 9-7 season? It's obvious that Bob doesn't see this team like the rest of the world sees it. Maybe it's like having a child and you overlook their shortcomings simply because they're "yours".
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Old 03-22-2011   #35
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Here's Revis' deal:
Link

46 mil/4 yrs = 11.5m/year

If you consider that contracts for a given position go UP over time, and that Aso will likely ask for MORE than Revis, I'd consider the starting point to be 12m/yr.

Now, what if Bob McNair hears from Rick Smith that Aso is only the 3rd-best CB overall and should be paid accordingly. So, the Texans call up Aso and offer 10.5m/yr - 5 years and another team offers 12.5m/yr - 4 years. Is the OTHER team in this scenario overpaying, or are they paying what the market will bear for the services of a TOP corner? What if Aso wants 12.5 to play for the Texans and only 11.75 to play for the Steelers? Would it be stupid to 'up the ante'?

Comparisons to Weaver, Both Smiths & Wade are all a little "off"....Aso has more Pro Bowls than those guys combined...which is ZERO, Aso has 4.
What another team is offering has no bearing on what we deem his worth to be. If we think he is only worth 10.5 a year then why would we pay him 12.5?

Would you pay 5 bucks for a beer? Sure you would.
Would you pay 6 bucks for a beer? Yeah sure why not
Would you pay 100 dollars for a beer? Probably not

So at some point between 6 and 100 dollars you decide that you are not willing to pay 1 more cent for a beer and that is what the value of that beer is to you.

Same thing applies to football players. Would I pay Aso 10mil a year? In a heartbeat. Would I pay him 20mil a year? Probably not. Where exactly to draw the line is where it gets sticky.
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Old 03-22-2011   #36
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Comparisons to Weaver, Both Smiths & Wade are all a little "off"....Aso has more Pro Bowls than those guys combined...which is ZERO, Aso has 4.
My point was context matters. The Texans at times have gone after and signed the supposedly best free agents available that off-season at their positions. This year sure there is a much more talented pool with guys like Aso at a much higher level. Nonetheless, the Texans have aggressively moved to fill holes within the market place they were presented at times.
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Old 03-22-2011   #37
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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What another team is offering has no bearing on what we deem his worth to be.
...and that's the problem. If what the Texans "value" somebody at is far beneath the going rate, that guy will go elsewhere. If 9 teams are willing to pay more, are the Texans still right? How about 20 teams?

"Overpay" is a relative term. Paying what the market commands can't literally be called "overpaying".
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D.B. - That sounds like a nugget of reality wrapped in a layer of embellished hyperbole.
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Old 03-22-2011   #38
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Originally Posted by houstonspartan View Post
Dale, we already know that you are perfectly fine with 6-10 as long as we rack up stats. What you fail to understand is that McNair has not earned the benefit of the doubt from his fans, and so every single thing that comes out of his mouth is questioned - with good reason.

This teams track record gives fans a basis on which to form opinions. And that's why, when people read McNair's quotes, they jump to conclusions. He has not given us any other reason not to.

That's ridiculous! Though I probably care less about statistics, from a fan perspective, than anyone you will ever meet.

"every single thing that comes out of his mouth is questioned"-

That's my point. Just have one, whiney thread about how McNair has caused fans so much frustration because the Texans haven't made the playoffs. You guys can all live on that thread and do your Goldilocks impression: this one is too hot, this one is too cold... this one is too hard, this one is too soft... they spend too much, they don't spend enought"... etc, etc, etc...

What McNair said should be applauded. That's the way we should all want the organization to run. The problem has been successful implementation.
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Old 03-22-2011   #39
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Why is it ridiculous? It isn't a pitchfork mentality. It is a frustration with an owner who doesn't seem to get it. You can point out, as Cak did, that there are teams that play it smartly and win but they also have used this philiosophy successfully and won and they have coaches, GMs and people in place to make it work. A philosophy is only as good as the people creating and executing it. So far the creators and executors of the Texans version have been a massive fail. Coach, GM, owner....stay the course. That is a fail.

Where was the failure last year? Defense. Who is on the market? Top player at his position. There is a difference between throwing money at the 5 mediocre players you named and going after a top guy. Why do you think The 49ers and Cowboys went after Deion...it brought another championship. Balancing money to keep guys who aren't getting it done and to fill in with "nice" FAs isn't something that has worked here so far. It is that simple. So until their version works, there is ample reason for people to wonder why they don't go and get a stud. That is sound logic. Become a winner. Try something else since in 9 years your way hasn't worked.

Overall what he is saying sounds prudent and nice but in reality is same story, different day. Running a post up offense is a nice philosophy unless you are running it with guys under 5'10.

As Icak mentioned, the heart of the issue is the quality of the free agent market. This year's market is incredibly strong. The Texans can target the 5th best CB in the market and get someone like Richard Marshall, Ike Taylor, Brent Grimes, or Brandon Carr... all depending on what your scouting department and defensive team covets. That's a flood of talent. The worst thing to do is throw gobs of money at Nnambi and miss an opportunity to get real value. Carr, for instance, is over 4 years younger than Nnambi and will likely accept a contract for half the value. That leaves the Texans money to spend in other areas, also quite stocked with talent.

As I previously mentioned, Bodden and Robinson were the top 2 FAs last season. This season they wouldn't be among the top 10, IMO... The Falcons gave Dunta a $40 million contract last year. This year, they'll likely lose their best CB (Grimes) for less money than they spent on Dunta.
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Old 03-22-2011   #40
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Default Re: McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
My point was context matters. The Texans at times have gone after and signed the supposedly best free agents available that off-season at their positions. This year sure there is a much more talented pool with guys like Aso at a much higher level. Nonetheless, the Texans have aggressively moved to fill holes within the market place they were presented at times.
The Texans have never aggressively moved to fill any holes in the market place that they were presented. Just the thought of that is laughable. We're by far one of the worst teams in the at filling holes in free agency. Hell, we've really never done that with quality players other than maybe Kevin Walter. Everyone else has been other team's poor cast offs that had no real demand on the open market or were average run of the mill players.
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