Contrasting corners: Jackson and Tryon - Houston Texans Message Board & Forum

**EllisUnit** · 03-21-2011

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcsouth

The Houston Texans were in dire need of a cornerback for 2010, and got one by using the 20th pick in the NFL draft on Kareem Jackson from Alabama.
The Colts' Justin Tryon was a pleasant surprise last season.

The Colts were in dire need of a cornerback right before the season started, and got one by trading a seventh-round pick to Washington for Justin Tryon. He was originally a fourth-rounder from Arizona State in 2008.

Look no further for symbolism of how Indianapolis almost always manages to roll along and Houston struggles to gain traction.

Football Outsiders says Tryon, who played in 12 games with six starts, was third in the leagueallowing an average of 5.0 yards a catch and sixth in the league allowing an average of 2.2 yards after the catch (YAC).

Football Outsiders says Jackson, who started all 16 games, was dead last of the 83 cornerbacks who were ranked, in both average yards per pass (11.1) and average YAC (6.0).

FO looked at 83 corners, because that is how many were targeted at least 40 times.

So the Colts got an effective guy for a seventh-round pick and the Texans got an ineffective guy for their top pick.

Sure, there are factors out of a cornerback’s control that go into this. He’s got no control over whether his pass rush is effective or whether his safeties can provide consistent help or how much his scheme exposes him or helps cover for him. These numbers also vary widely year to year, which FO emphasizes makes them somewhat less definitive.

By nature, Tryon will surrender fewer yards playing in Indy's Cover-2 than Jackson will in Houston's scheme. Still, the difference shouldn't be that big.

And Jackson should have rated as the Texans first or second corner. When the Colts were healthy, Tryon could have rated as low as fourth. Given a hindsight choice between the two last season, you’d be crazy not to have taken Tryon. (Jackson was targeted 29 more times than Tryon, but I’d have taken my chances with Tryon for those extra snaps.)

Other AFC South notes on corners from FO’s two posts:

* Tennessee’s Jason McCourtywas seventh in yards per pass (5.5), but 35th in YAC (3.2) while rookie Alterraun Verner was 20th (6.3) and 15th (2.6) respectively.

* Indianapolis’ Jerraud Powerswas 10th in yards per pass (5.6) and 23rd in YAC (2.8). He was limited to 10 games because of injuries.

* Jacksonville’s Rashean Mathiswas 78th in yards per pass (10.1) and 79th in YAC (4.9).

* Houston's Glover Quin was middle of the pack: 41st in yards per pass (9.9) and 49th in YAC (3.7).

* One of the corners who ranked ahead of Tryon at the start of things for the Colts, Jacob Lacey, was 75th in yards per pass (9.5) and 69th in YAC (4.5).

* Author Aaron Schatz pointed out to me that Jacksonville's David Jones had fewer than 40 target passes but was awful. He was targeted 30 times. His 12 yards per pass would have been the league's worst if he qualified.

TimeKiller · 03-21-2011

He should've posted photos of himself learning how to play better.

La Voz · 03-21-2011

Two words:

Safety play.

**Lucky** · 03-21-2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by La Voz

Two words:

Safety play.

It would have taken a combination of Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu for Jackson not to suck last season.

Having said that, 2011 is a new season. With new defensive coaches and new defensive schemes. So there's hope. But anyone suggesting that Kareem was anything else but a train wreck in 2010 needs a reality check.

steelbtexan · 03-21-2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucky

It would have taken a combination of Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu for Jackson not to suck last season.

Having said that, 2011 is a new season. With new defensive coaches and new defensive schemes. So there's hope. But anyone suggesting that Kareem was anything else but a train wreck in 2010 needs a reality check.

You're ruining spin season for the sunshine/koolaiders. Perception is reality in Texanville.

76Texan · 03-21-2011

Reality is when a new DC comes in and cut off the warts!

**Texan_Bill** · 03-21-2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by 76Texan

Reality is when a new DC comes in and cut off the warts!

John..... Really????

You disappear for months on end, and then all of the sudden you're an expert???

76Texan · 03-21-2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texan_Bill

John..... Really????

You disappear for months on end, and then all of the sudden you're an expert???

Hey, I can always read news on the internet and it says:
Wilson gone.
Pollard gone.

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to know it spells "unredeemable"!

**Texan_Bill** · 03-21-2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by 76Texan

Hey, I can always read news on the internet and it says:
Wilson gone.
Pollard gone.

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to know it spells "unredeemable"!

LOL ****er!!!!

Corrosion · 03-22-2011

Jackson fell down while reading this thread , he tripped over the gaff he uses in place of a cleat. After watching the cockfights , he got the idea of trying to dropkick recievers rather than actually tackle them ..... figuring since he was going to fall down anyway he may as well do so in a semi productive manner.

alphajoker · 03-22-2011

I think that data is skewed. Indy allows 127 yards rushing per game...of course, they're pass defense is going to look super.

Goatcheese · 03-22-2011

I've said it before, Yards per reception and Yards per attempt mean just South of nothing.

Which is the better corner?

A plays 500 snaps in coverage is thrown at 1 time and allows 1 reception for 10 yards 10 YPR 10 YPA
B plays 500 snaps in coverage is thrown at 500 times and allows 500 receptions for 2,500 yards 5 YPR 5 YPA

If you want to know how good a corner is in coverage you look at yards allowed per play in coverage.

Player A above = 0.02 GODLIKE
Player B above = 5 Worst corner ever

**EllisUnit** · 03-22-2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goatcheese

I've said it before, Yards per reception and Yards per attempt mean just South of nothing.

Which is the better corner?

A plays 500 snaps in coverage is thrown at 1 time and allows 1 reception for 10 yards 10 YPR 10 YPA
B plays 500 snaps in coverage is thrown at 500 times and allows 500 receptions for 2,500 yards 5 YPR 5 YPA

If you want to know how good a corner is in coverage you look at yards allowed per play in coverage.

Player A above = 0.02 GODLIKE
Player B above = 5 Worst corner ever

THESE stats are for players targeted 40+ times last season. not comparing them to a player targeted 1 time or evn 20 times. atleast 40. And he is the worst of them all.

Goatcheese · 03-22-2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by EllisUnit

THESE stats are for players targeted 40+ times last season. not comparing them to a player targeted 1 time or evn 20 times. atleast 40. And he is the worst of them all.

That doesn't matter.

The point is they're going about it completely wrong.

Replace player A's stats with targeted 40 times allowed 40 receptions for 400 yards 10 ypa 10 ypr and he's still at 0.80 yards allowed per play in coverage. A solid #1 corner option in a league where the average for a starter is giving up ~1.11.

B isn't good enough to be a backup in Canadistan.

BigBull17 · 03-22-2011

Could also be contributed to a horrible defensive game plan. The whole defense was a train wreck.

76Texan · 03-22-2011

The problem with stats, first of all, is that one needs to make sure the data is collected correctly.

Who or what is Football Outsiders?
It's a company created by a writer.
You start googling for company information and you may find it listed under dry cleaning (I'm not kidding, and the owner names is listed as Aaron Schatz; both the company and Schatz are located in Framingham, MA.)

http://www.manta.com/c/mt4n6b5/football-outsiders-inc

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/info/meet

I don't have any problem with FO and the people working there; but it looks to me like the key people are writers (ie. they are not football professionals.)
Many of them are free lancers (ie. non full-time employees) who may also have other job(s).

The real company is listed to have between 50-100 employees.
http://www.zoominfo.com/search#searc...rgetid=profile

The people who do the charting are likely young and non-professionals as well.
(maybe somebody who speaks to Schatz or Barnwell or some others can clarify this.)

At any rate, nobody knows whether they charge a pass completion to the correct defender to begin with.
And that was only the beginning of the problem with stats.

The other thing is they have no way of determining whether a receiver/defender benefited or was victimized by a call or non-call by the refs.

Basically, I think stats are for fantasy football fans!

**EllisUnit** · 03-22-2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by 76Texan

The problem with stats, first of all, is that one needs to make sure the data is collected correctly.

Who or what is Football Outsiders?
It's a company created by a writer.
You start googling for company information and you may find it listed under dry cleaning (I'm not kidding, and the owner names is listed as Aaron Schatz; both the company and Schatz are located in Framingham, MA.)

http://www.manta.com/c/mt4n6b5/football-outsiders-inc

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/info/meet

I don't have any problem with FO and the people working there; but it looks to me like the key people are writers (ie. they are not football professionals.)
Many of them are free lancers (ie. non full-time employees) who may also have other job(s).

The real company is listed to have between 50-100 employees.
http://www.zoominfo.com/search#searc...rgetid=profile

The people who do the charting are likely young and non-professionals as well.
(maybe somebody who speaks to Schatz or Barnwell or some others can clarify this.)

At any rate, nobody knows whether they charge a pass completion to the correct defender to begin with.
And that was only the beginning of the problem with stats.

The other thing is they have no way of determining whether a receiver/defender benefited or was victimized by a call or non-call by the refs.

Basically, I think stats are for fantasy football fans!

Well then i have to say that not based on stats K.J was terrible, we all saw it. These stats FO just showed what we already knew. And K.J was rarely close enough to WRs before the ball was there our after it was there to be victimized by calls.

CloakNNNdagger · 03-22-2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by 76Texan

Reality is when a new DC comes in and cut off the warts!

Those aren't genital warts on some of our players. They are their privates.

03-21-2011	#2
TimeKiller Awaiting Email Confirmation Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: This giant tree, standing 10,000 ft. high but not reaching the ground. It's roots must hold the sky. Section: 521/Couch Age: 26 Posts: 7,648 Rep Power: 0	Re: Contrasting corners: Jackson and Tryon He should've posted photos of himself learning how to play better.

03-21-2011	#3
La Voz Rookie Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 4 Rep Power: 0	Re: Contrasting corners: Jackson and Tryon Two words: Safety play.

03-21-2011	#6
76Texan Hall of Fame Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 11,670 Rep Power: 27383	Re: Contrasting corners: Jackson and Tryon Reality is when a new DC comes in and cut off the warts!

03-22-2011	#10
Corrosion Hall of Fame Join Date: May 2004 Location: Northwest Houston Age: 44 Posts: 26,916 Rep Power: 57783	Re: Contrasting corners: Jackson and Tryon Jackson fell down while reading this thread , he tripped over the gaff he uses in place of a cleat. After watching the cockfights , he got the idea of trying to dropkick recievers rather than actually tackle them ..... figuring since he was going to fall down anyway he may as well do so in a semi productive manner. __________________ I have no tolerance for stupidity.

03-22-2011	#11
alphajoker Hall of Fame Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 1,519 Rep Power: 2429	Re: Contrasting corners: Jackson and Tryon I think that data is skewed. Indy allows 127 yards rushing per game...of course, they're pass defense is going to look super.

03-21-2011	#1
EllisUnit Homerism Champ Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: San Antonio Section: 2" from the TV, Screaming. Age: 28 Posts: 4,159 Rep Power: 15883	Contrasting corners: Jackson and Tryon http://espn.go.com/blog/afcsouth The Houston Texans were in dire need of a cornerback for 2010, and got one by using the 20th pick in the NFL draft on Kareem Jackson from Alabama. The Colts' Justin Tryon was a pleasant surprise last season. The Colts were in dire need of a cornerback right before the season started, and got one by trading a seventh-round pick to Washington for Justin Tryon. He was originally a fourth-rounder from Arizona State in 2008. Look no further for symbolism of how Indianapolis almost always manages to roll along and Houston struggles to gain traction. Football Outsiders says Tryon, who played in 12 games with six starts, was third in the leagueallowing an average of 5.0 yards a catch and sixth in the league allowing an average of 2.2 yards after the catch (YAC). *Football Outsiders says Jackson, who started all 16 games, was dead last of the 83 cornerbacks who were ranked, in both average yards per pass (11.1) and average YAC (6.0).* *FO looked at 83 corners, because that is how many were targeted at least 40 times.* *So the Colts got an effective guy for a seventh-round pick and the Texans got an ineffective guy for their top pick.* Sure, there are factors out of a cornerback’s control that go into this. He’s got no control over whether his pass rush is effective or whether his safeties can provide consistent help or how much his scheme exposes him or helps cover for him. These numbers also vary widely year to year, which FO emphasizes makes them somewhat less definitive. By nature, Tryon will surrender fewer yards playing in Indy's Cover-2 than Jackson will in Houston's scheme. Still, the difference shouldn't be that big. And Jackson should have rated as the Texans first or second corner. When the Colts were healthy, Tryon could have rated as low as fourth. Given a hindsight choice between the two last season, you’d be crazy not to have taken Tryon. (Jackson was targeted 29 more times than Tryon, but I’d have taken my chances with Tryon for those extra snaps.) Other AFC South notes on corners from FO’s two posts: * Tennessee’s Jason McCourtywas seventh in yards per pass (5.5), but 35th in YAC (3.2) while rookie Alterraun Verner was 20th (6.3) and 15th (2.6) respectively. * Indianapolis’ Jerraud Powerswas 10th in yards per pass (5.6) and 23rd in YAC (2.8). He was limited to 10 games because of injuries. * Jacksonville’s Rashean Mathiswas 78th in yards per pass (10.1) and 79th in YAC (4.9). * Houston's Glover Quin was middle of the pack: 41st in yards per pass (9.9) and 49th in YAC (3.7). * One of the corners who ranked ahead of Tryon at the start of things for the Colts, Jacob Lacey, was 75th in yards per pass (9.5) and 69th in YAC (4.5). * Author Aaron Schatz pointed out to me that Jacksonville's David Jones had fewer than 40 target passes but was awful. He was targeted 30 times. His 12 yards per pass would have been the league's worst if he qualified. __________________ Hmmmmm Superbowl Or Bust !!! Last edited by EllisUnit; 03-22-2011 at 11:57 AM.

03-22-2011	#12
Goatcheese Nightmare Over Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 4,488 Rep Power: 21802	Re: Contrasting corners: Jackson and Tryon I've said it before, Yards per reception and Yards per attempt mean just South of nothing. Which is the better corner? A plays 500 snaps in coverage is thrown at 1 time and allows 1 reception for 10 yards 10 YPR 10 YPA B plays 500 snaps in coverage is thrown at 500 times and allows 500 receptions for 2,500 yards 5 YPR 5 YPA If you want to know how good a corner is in coverage you look at yards allowed per play in coverage. Player A above = 0.02 GODLIKE Player B above = 5 Worst corner ever __________________ “Every man takes the limits of his own field of vision for the limits of the world.” -Arthur Schopenhauer

03-22-2011	#15
BigBull17 Hall of Fame Join Date: May 2005 Location: Alvin Age: 32 Posts: 4,943 Rep Power: 4281	Re: Contrasting corners: Jackson and Tryon Could also be contributed to a horrible defensive game plan. The whole defense was a train wreck. __________________ Is it March 6th yet?

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