Cam Newton

[kiwitexansfan]

Originally Posted by El Tejano

He's not. He's got better skills and can read a defense better.

#3 overall and what #15?

And yet people are saying Newton should be a second rounder?

I don't get it.

[b0ng]

Originally Posted by 76Texan

If he's going to evolve in the passing game by leaps and bounds, he will be the best QB ever to play the game!

Nah, if he improves his passing game by leaps and bounds he'll be 2010 Michael Vick, with hopefully less injuries. That's an awfully big jump in skill that I don't think he's going to take. As I said before though, at least his mechanics aren't bad and his release is fairly quick. Other than that he's got his legs and QB's who use their legs too much in the NFL usually don't last too long.

[Playoffs]

I like him. Like his attitude/demeanor. Like his release. A leader's personality.

Needs to become a detail fanatic. If he can "see" it, I think he becomes a winner.

[El Tejano]

Originally Posted by asleep

I like him. Like his attitude/demeanor. Like his release. A leader's personality.

Needs to become a detail fanatic. If he can "see" it, I think he becomes a winner.

And that about sums up how I feel about Cam Newton. I think with the right team, like say Tennessee or Minnesota where he can have a running game to rely on while he works on the small details of being an NFL QB he can be a really good QB in this league.

[Texecutioner]

Well for one Cam Newton is not as good as VY was when Vince came out. Vince had only lost one game in his last two seasons of playing and came out early as a Junior. Vince had early success in the NFL because he sort of just winged it a lot of times and made plays with his feet. That worked for a while. But the minute that he went into his 2nd season and DC's and their players got to watch a ton of film on VY, that's when he started to really struggle. Teams knew how to game plan for the scrambles a lot better and when VY couldn't throw the ball all around the field it got a lot tougher and his immaturity started to show and things just got worse going into season 3.

VY didn't have a horrible ego going into the league. It was never documented anywhere. He hadn't been extremely immature either. His coaches loved him. Cam Newton on the other hand has already shown a ton of signs to have a huge ego, to be a "ME" first kind of guy, and to not listen to his coaches. He's had character issues where he could have gotten his school in trouble and his own parents were involved with that. I wouldn't touch this kid with a ten foot pole especially after seeing the problems and issues that Jamarcus Russell had who was also not a sound passer at QB either who got way overrated after his bowl game. Running QB's have proven time and time again that they don't end up having long term success in the NFL. Even Michael Vick hasn't had long term success in the NFL. His success went down big time before his dog scandal, and he came back and bounced back big time with the help of one of the best receiving cores in the NFL, but don't be surprised if teams start figuring out Vick again like they did right before his dog fighting scandal. This is a passer's league.

[76Texan]

Originally Posted by b0ng

Nah, if he improves his passing game by leaps and bounds he'll be 2010 Michael Vick, with hopefully less injuries. That's an awfully big jump in skill that I don't think he's going to take. As I said before though, at least his mechanics aren't bad and his release is fairly quick. Other than that he's got his legs and QB's who use their legs too much in the NFL usually don't last too long.

I am not a fan of QB who likes to scramble just because he doesn't know what to do with the ball.
Newton knows what to do with the ball.
It's not his fault that Mazlan called running plays specifically for him.
On the other hand, he only scrambled when there was nobody open or pressure was coming heavily.
He scrambled and looked to pass first.
He does not have happy feet.

Remember that his passing efficiency rating of 182.05 was second only to Kelen Moore of Boise St. (182.63) who played against a much weaker schedule.
Gabbert was a mere 127.04

His 10.19 yd per attempt (not completion) was top in the country.
(Andrew Luck number was 8.97; Gabbert was 6.71)

His TD Pct of 10.71 was top in the nation (Gabbert was 3.37).
That means he threw for a TD pass every 9 attempts while it took Gabbert more than 3 times as many (roughly 28 attempts).

He attempted 280 passes as compared to:
McElroy 313, Dalton, 316, Tolzien 266, Ponder 299.

His poise in the pocket was 100 times better than VY.
He knew where the pressure can come from because his pre-snap read is very good.
He will slide away from the pressure to complete a pass.
VY cannot hold his jock as far as understanding the passing game and different defenses.
He went through multiple reads in his progression often.
On one play, he impressed the heck out of me by going through all 5 reads (in a short period of time).
That is, he looked at all 5 receivers before delivering the ball.
That's unheard of in college ball.
I'm not sure I've ever seen Schaub going thru 4 reads, let alone 5.

He had an arm that Schaub can only dream about;
he can zip the ball on the medium route while also has the touch on the short route.
This is also extremely rare.

In short, he's a whole lot more advanced in the passing game than all of the QBs that I have followed the last 5 years or so (beginning with Leinart and VY). I wasn't much into football for a long while since the Oilers left town so I didn't know much about guys like Rodgers who came out a year earlier.
The only other QB that I liked was Sam Bradford.

Gabbert isn't terrible.
I think he's a little short in a few areas.
If he can take the coaching, he could be a good one because he also got the tools.
The mental aspect; however, will be the biggest thing that he (Gabbert) needs to improve on.

Newton already has it!

[bah007]

So 76, are you saying that you think Newton is more advance than Bradford was coming out?

[Texecutioner]

Originally Posted by 76Texan

I am not a fan of QB who likes to scramble just because he doesn't know what to do with the ball.
Newton knows what to do with the ball.
It's not his fault that Mazlan called running plays specifically for him.
On the other hand, he only scrambled when there was nobody open or pressure was coming heavily.
He scrambled and looked to pass first.
He does not have happy feet.

Remember that his passing efficiency rating of 182.05 was second only to Kelen Moore of Boise St. (182.63) who played against a much weaker schedule.
Gabbert was a mere 127.04

His 10.19 yd per attempt (not completion) was top in the country.
(Andrew Luck number was 8.97; Gabbert was 6.71)

His TD Pct of 10.71 was top in the nation (Gabbert was 3.37).
That means he threw for a TD pass every 9 attempts while it took Gabbert more than 3 times as many (roughly 28 attempts).

He attempted 280 passes as compared to:
McElroy 313, Dalton, 316, Tolzien 266, Ponder 299.

His poise in the pocket was 100 times better than VY.
He knew where the pressure can come from because his pre-snap read is very good.
He will slide away from the pressure to complete a pass.
VY cannot hold his jock as far as understanding the passing game and different defenses.
He went through multiple reads in his progression often.
On one play, he impressed the heck out of me by going through all 5 reads (in a short period of time).
That is, he looked at all 5 receivers before delivering the ball.
That's unheard of in college ball.
I'm not sure I've ever seen Schaub going thru 4 reads, let alone 5.

He had an arm that Schaub can only dream about;
he can zip the ball on the medium route while also has the touch on the short route.
This is also extremely rare.

In short, he's a whole lot more advanced in the passing game than all of the QBs that I have followed the last 5 years or so (beginning with Leinart and VY). I wasn't much into football for a long while since the Oilers left town so I didn't know much about guys like Rodgers who came out a year earlier.
The only other QB that I liked was Sam Bradford.

Gabbert isn't terrible.
I think he's a little short in a few areas.
If he can take the coaching, he could be a good one because he also got the tools.
The mental aspect; however, will be the biggest thing that he (Gabbert) needs to improve on.

Newton already has it!

Seriously, how in the world can you say that Cam Newton was more advanced in the passing game than Leinart was when Leinart came out of college? I honestly have to ask if you even watched the guy to say something like that. Leinart was a great passer in college. That's all he did was pass and that's what made him a great QB in college. He was slow as a snail and that was his only weapon in what was probably the most prolific offense in college football. Cam isn't even close to how Leinart was in college as far as passing.

And I'd say Cam is right on par with where VY was in college as far as his passing and that's exactly why I question this guy as much as I do. QB's with his skill set have proven time and time again that they struggle at the next level. And Cam's ego and attitude has shown to be ten times worse than anything VY eve showed back then. And Cam was not ever going through 5 reads on multiple plays in games. Let's get serious for a second. Cam had a very easy offense to run. There was nothing complicated at all about it.

[b0ng]

Originally Posted by 76Texan

I am not a fan of QB who likes to scramble just because he doesn't know what to do with the ball.
Newton knows what to do with the ball.
It's not his fault that Mazlan called running plays specifically for him.
On the other hand, he only scrambled when there was nobody open or pressure was coming heavily.
He scrambled and looked to pass first.
He does not have happy feet.

Remember that his passing efficiency rating of 182.05 was second only to Kelen Moore of Boise St. (182.63) who played against a much weaker schedule.
Gabbert was a mere 127.04

His 10.19 yd per attempt (not completion) was top in the country.
(Andrew Luck number was 8.97; Gabbert was 6.71)

His TD Pct of 10.71 was top in the nation (Gabbert was 3.37).
That means he threw for a TD pass every 9 attempts while it took Gabbert more than 3 times as many (roughly 28 attempts).

He attempted 280 passes as compared to:
McElroy 313, Dalton, 316, Tolzien 266, Ponder 299.

His poise in the pocket was 100 times better than VY.
He knew where the pressure can come from because his pre-snap read is very good.
He will slide away from the pressure to complete a pass.
VY cannot hold his jock as far as understanding the passing game and different defenses.
He went through multiple reads in his progression often.
On one play, he impressed the heck out of me by going through all 5 reads (in a short period of time).
That is, he looked at all 5 receivers before delivering the ball.
That's unheard of in college ball.
I'm not sure I've ever seen Schaub going thru 4 reads, let alone 5.

He had an arm that Schaub can only dream about;
he can zip the ball on the medium route while also has the touch on the short route.
This is also extremely rare.

In short, he's a whole lot more advanced in the passing game than all of the QBs that I have followed the last 5 years or so (beginning with Leinart and VY). I wasn't much into football for a long while since the Oilers left town so I didn't know much about guys like Rodgers who came out a year earlier.
The only other QB that I liked was Sam Bradford.

Gabbert isn't terrible.
I think he's a little short in a few areas.
If he can take the coaching, he could be a good one because he also got the tools.
The mental aspect; however, will be the biggest thing that he (Gabbert) needs to improve on.

Newton already has it!

If you are really trying to tell me that Cam Newton is more advanced at passing than all the other QB's in the draft then I'm not sure what to tell you. Newton is not a polished passer in the least and he has accuracy issues that would make any NFL QB coach cry. He was in a run-first spread offense that concentrates almost exclusively on shotgun sets. He did take a snap under center maybe twice or three times a game and that was it. Bringing up all these comparisons about how VY was better or vice versa is silly as they are two different players, albeit with a very similar skill set.

And talking about Newtons mental aspect after all of the hoopla surrounding his comments at the combine seems awfully silly. Those comments right there scream red flag everywhere they go. It's nice that he was able to play through all of the media scrutiny Auburn was receiving due to all the dirty deals associated with Newton and his father. But would you really draft that guy #1 overall? Really? That seems like such a more colossal blunder than taking VY at #3. One team may draft Newton high (I would think that Chan Gailey would be the coach who could get the most out of that guy), but in no way do I think a guy who has as checkered of a past as Newton with some inacurracy and not too great throwing mechanics as well as a run first mentality is not going to make it in the NFL.

And please don't bring up how awesome Newton was in college, there have been plenty of great college QB's that don't have a translateable game to the NFL. Pretty sure this is where Newton falls.

[76Texan]

Originally Posted by bah007

So 76, are you saying that you think Newton is more advance than Bradford was coming out?

Bah, I did say that the other QB that I liked was Sam Bradford.
I thought he could have come out a year earlier (meaning that he was ready),
even though I'm not among those who wants instant gratification.
When I take a guy at #1 to be a franchise QB, I still prefer the coaches to have a develomental program, playing a veteran QB and let the young guy catching a bit of the action when situations allow.
The sooner he can show that he's really ready, the more playing time he would get.

[76Texan]

Originally Posted by Texecutioner

Seriously, how in the world can you say that Cam Newton was more advanced in the passing game than Leinart was when Leinart came out of college? I honestly have to ask if you even watched the guy to say something like that. Leinart was a great passer in college. That's all he did was pass and that's what made him a great QB in college. He was slow as a snail and that was his only weapon in what was probably the most prolific offense in college football. Cam isn't even close to how Leinart was in college as far as passing.

And I'd say Cam is right on par with where VY was in college as far as his passing and that's exactly why I question this guy as much as I do. QB's with his skill set have proven time and time again that they struggle at the next level. And Cam's ego and attitude has shown to be ten times worse than anything VY eve showed back then. And Cam was not ever going through 5 reads on multiple plays in games. Let's get serious for a second. Cam had a very easy offense to run. There was nothing complicated at all about it.

I just went back and rewatch the 06 Rose Bowl.
I agree with you that Leinart was a great QB in college.
There were two things that he can do very well:

1. Getting the ball to a wide-open receiver with no pressure up his face.

2. Getting the ball to receivers on quick, short or short-medium routes that were the core of the version of the WCO that they ran at USC.

Besides that, I can pick apart his game and shows why he was still lacking in many areas as an NFL prospect.

You may not be aware that I was fine with:
- not bringing Carr back the year that VY, Bush, Mario, and Leinart came out.
- trading Carr, most likely getting at least a 3rd pick - in 05, he still had some value.
- because of the want of a QB, bringing in a vet to start, trading down to draft Leinart and an extra pick for another position of need.

So it wasn't like I said that Leinart was trash.

What I can say is that "Yes, Newton is more advance than Leinart in the passing game as a prospect coming out of college".

Mazlan passing attack is more "vertical oriented" than the WCO at USC.
Leinart doesn't have the arm and therefore, his coaches didn't draw up much of the deep ball for him (35-40 yds and more).
As far as passing is concern, one of the important attributes that Newton has (and Leinart lacking at the time) is to get the ball out on time to the receiver.
The other important attribute, I've already stated: Newton played better under pressure.

I might have to break down a game from each so that people can see that the offense that Newton was in does not belong in the simple category.
Or at least, it involves more complex routes for the receivers than what Leinart saw in the WCO.

[kiwitexansfan]

I think 76 is right that scheme really helped Lienart.

Whoever was plugged into Carrol's offense did well.

[76Texan]

Originally Posted by b0ng

If you are really trying to tell me that Cam Newton is more advanced at passing than all the other QB's in the draft then I'm not sure what to tell you. Newton is not a polished passer in the least and he has accuracy issues that would make any NFL QB coach cry. He was in a run-first spread offense that concentrates almost exclusively on shotgun sets. He did take a snap under center maybe twice or three times a game and that was it. Bringing up all these comparisons about how VY was better or vice versa is silly as they are two different players, albeit with a very similar skill set.

And talking about Newtons mental aspect after all of the hoopla surrounding his comments at the combine seems awfully silly. Those comments right there scream red flag everywhere they go. It's nice that he was able to play through all of the media scrutiny Auburn was receiving due to all the dirty deals associated with Newton and his father. But would you really draft that guy #1 overall? Really? That seems like such a more colossal blunder than taking VY at #3. One team may draft Newton high (I would think that Chan Gailey would be the coach who could get the most out of that guy), but in no way do I think a guy who has as checkered of a past as Newton with some inacurracy and not too great throwing mechanics as well as a run first mentality is not going to make it in the NFL.

And please don't bring up how awesome Newton was in college, there have been plenty of great college QB's that don't have a translateable game to the NFL. Pretty sure this is where Newton falls.

The mistake that people normally thought of Newton is that he ran a spread offense. (Read my above post.)
That would be Gabbert's cup of tea.
There's nothing wrong with the spread offense anyway; just look at Brady and the Patriots.
Manning and the Colts also employ the spread a lot.

When you say that Newton has accuracy problem, it makes me cringe.
For a guy that is "inaccurate" his completion pct of 66% plus is higher than other guys who throw more short passes (Gabbert, for example, was at 63.37%).
(It was probably his showing at the combine that led you to such a misguided conclusion.)

[Hagar]

Eventually, the NFL is going to come up with a scheme to fit an athletic QB and its going to revolutionize the game. It almost happened with Micheal Vick in Atlanta. If I remember correctly, the Falcon's didn't have alot of talent on the team until Vick took over and led them to the playoffs.

I thought it was going to happen with VY, but his personality and lack of foresight by the Titans screwed that situation. Still Vince has a 26-13 won loss record, which is pretty good.

If the NFL team that takes Newton develops a system that fits Newton's skill instead of trying to cram him into a set offense like what happened with Vick and Yound, the sky is the limit.

Now don't get me wrong, Newton has got to work hard. I mean, after all this is the NFL were talking about but all indications are that this kid has a pretty good work ethic. The other question always remains is what happens to him after he gets a ton of cash?

[bah007]

Originally Posted by Hagar

Eventually, the NFL is going to come up with a scheme to fit an athletic QB and its going to revolutionize the game. It almost happened with Micheal Vick in Atlanta. If I remember correctly, the Falcon's didn't have alot of talent on the team until Vick took over and led them to the playoffs.

I thought it was going to happen with VY, but his personality and lack of foresight by the Titans screwed that situation. Still Vince has a 26-13 won loss record, which is pretty good.

If the NFL team that takes Newton develops a system that fits Newton's skill instead of trying to cram him into a set offense like what happened with Vick and Yound, the sky is the limit.

Now don't get me wrong, Newton has got to work hard. I mean, after all this is the NFL were talking about but all indications are that this kid has a pretty good work ethic. The other question always remains is what happens to him after he gets a ton of cash?

We already know the answer to that one. He picks Auburn.

[kiwitexansfan]

Originally Posted by bah007

We already know the answer to that one. He picks Auburn.

It was his daddy, Cam had NO idea.

[beerlover]

Originally Posted by 76Texan

The mistake that people normally thought of Newton is that he ran a spread offense. (Read my above post.)
That would be Gabbert's cup of tea.
There's nothing wrong with the spread offense anyway; just look at Brady and the Patriots.
Manning and the Colts also employ the spread a lot.

When you say that Newton has accuracy problem, it makes me cringe.
For a guy that is "inaccurate" his completion pct of 66% plus is higher than other guys who throw more short passes (Gabbert, for example, was at 63.37%).
(It was probably his showing at the combine that led you to such a misguided conclusion.)

there is a difference between making College throws vs Pro throws into tight windows 15-20 yards in 3 seconds or less. Most of Cam's success to support those numbers came when he extended plays, created time as needed, then delivered when WR came open. its a different thing & that is what he struggled with @ the combine. It was unwise for him to throw @ the combine but that was induced by his media day extravaganza he created in the first place. Suggests to me that he is a true diva which is not something most teams (coaches) really want to deal with regardless how well he looks in practice or in precious game film

[76Texan]

Originally Posted by kiwitexansfan

I think 76 is right that scheme really helped Lienart.Whoever was plugged into Carrol's offense did well.

Not only that; look at what Leinart had to work with besides Bush and Lendale White:
FB David Kirtman, drafted at #163 in 06 (he contributed in the passing game in 06, including a couple of nice catches in the Rose Bowl)

WR Keary Colbert, drafted at #62 in 04
WR Mike Williams, drafted at #10 in 05
TE Dominique Byrd, drafted at #93 in 06
WR Dwayne Jarret, drafted at #45 in 07
WR Steve Smith, drafted at #51 in 07
TE Fred Davis, drafted at #48 in 08 (he contributed in 06, including the Rose Bowl)
And his O-line:
OT Jacob Rogers, drafted at #52 in 04
OT Winston Justice, drafted at #39 in 06
OG Fred Matua, drafted at #237 in 06
OG Taitusi Lutui, drafted at #41 in 06
C Ryan Kalil, drafted at #59 in 07
OT Sam Baker, drafted at #21 in 07
OG Chilo Rachal, drafted at #39 in 07

BTW, Leinart's completion percentage was 65% in 06 in that WCO

[76Texan]

Originally Posted by beerlover

there is a difference between making College throws vs Pro throws into tight windows 15-20 yards in 3 seconds or less. Most of Cam's success to support those numbers came when he extended plays, created time as needed, then delivered when WR came open. its a different thing & that is what he struggled with @ the combine. It was unwise for him to throw @ the combine but that was induced by his media day extravaganza he created in the first place. Suggests to me that he is a true diva which is not something most teams (coaches) really want to deal with regardless how well he looks in practice or in precious game film

I wouldn't say that most of his success came from that.
But at any rate, that is another positive attribute that he possesses.
The ability to extend plays.

[76Texan]

Originally Posted by Hagar

Eventually, the NFL is going to come up with a scheme to fit an athletic QB and its going to revolutionize the game. It almost happened with Micheal Vick in Atlanta. If I remember correctly, the Falcon's didn't have alot of talent on the team until Vick took over and led them to the playoffs.

I thought it was going to happen with VY, but his personality and lack of foresight by the Titans screwed that situation. Still Vince has a 26-13 won loss record, which is pretty good.

If the NFL team that takes Newton develops a system that fits Newton's skill instead of trying to cram him into a set offense like what happened with Vick and Yound, the sky is the limit.

Now don't get me wrong, Newton has got to work hard. I mean, after all this is the NFL were talking about but all indications are that this kid has a pretty good work ethic. The other question always remains is what happens to him after he gets a ton of cash?

Andy Reid and the Eagles did a pretty good job with Vick this year, I'm sure you'd agree with that.