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Old 02-24-2011   #41
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Default Re: Vance Joseph DB Coach

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Originally Posted by IDEXAN View Post
I became a serious Allen fan last year when I saw him run down Chris Johnson, and that's the truth. Johnson caught a short little pass out in the flat, really closer to the sideline, he takes off with the ball, but Allen ran the guy down, I kid you not ! Maybe you remember the play ?
All things considered he's atleast our second best CB (after Quin), so yes we definitely need to keep him if at all possible.
If only speed can be the only thing a CB needs.
Chris Johnson 4.24
Mike Wallace 4.33
Jason Allen 4.39

Notice that Allen was in the shuffle and had at least 8 yds head start on Wallace

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...ace-53-yard-TD

Besides speed, there's technique and coverage.
IMO, on that play, it wasn't really speed that torched Allen.
Watch the QB drop, the overall pass patterns, the coverage.
Chew on it a little; I'd like to hear your take (and anybody else's.)
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Old 02-24-2011   #42
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Default Re: Vance Joseph DB Coach

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
If only speed can be the only thing a CB needs.
Chris Johnson 4.24
Mike Wallace 4.33
Jason Allen 4.39

Notice that Allen was in the shuffle and had at least 8 yds head start on Wallace

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...ace-53-yard-TD

Besides speed, there's technique and coverage.
IMO, on that play, it wasn't really speed that torched Allen.
Watch the QB drop, the overall pass patterns, the coverage.
Chew on it a little; I'd like to hear your take (and anybody else's.)
he may of had a head start, but he had to slow down, what if it woulda been a curl route for the WR, Allen woulda never recovered, then after that wallace had a little more than allen. It was contested much better than i ever saw Jackson do this season.
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Old 02-25-2011   #43
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Default Re: Vance Joseph DB Coach

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Originally Posted by EllisUnit View Post
he may of had a head start, but he had to slow down, what if it woulda been a curl route for the WR, Allen woulda never recovered, then after that wallace had a little more than allen. It was contested much better than i ever saw Jackson do this season.
1. Why did he have to slow down?
You said "what if it had been a curl route" and "it would be very difficult for Allen to recover".
All that is true!
If it was man coverage!

And that's why I saw it as more about technique and coverage rather than speed.

I apologize that the vids didn't show the whole field as the game film can.

It was a 3x1 pattern - three (3) receivers on one side and one (1) on Allen's side, plus the RB in a one-back set.

The Dolphins were dropping into a 3-deep, 4-underneath zone coverage.
(Strong safety came up, both CBs dropping back with the FS.)

The LCB "squezeed" his receiver inside (toward the safety) while Allen failed to do so (both CBs operated from the shuffle.)
What the LCB did was to get "more depth" to start with (while watching for the corner route).
Basically, he was able to prevent the receiver from getting to top speed.
(In John Madden's words "beating your man to the punch".)

On top of that, in such a pattern, the CBs are "on an island" on the deep route, because either the slot or the TE would run toward the middle, taking away the deep safety.

So why was it that the other CB (one of the two young ones that Allen lost the job to) can beat his man to the punch?
Because he played it right, not because he had more speed than Allen.
I think it was Vontae Davis (4.49 speed).
And the guy Allen lost his job to was Sean Smith (4.53 speed)

As reference, Jackson's speed was 4.48, same as McCourty.

The other thing about technique was that the Dolphins employ mostly the shuffle or bail and run. I don't think they use the back pedal much, if at all.
This (in some cases) can put the CBs in a disadvantage.

The thing with Allen is that he had some kind of hip surgery in college I think.
Probably why he cannot go with the back pedal.

Sean Smith, I already knew when I reviewed his tapes as we talked about him in the draft a couple years back, did not back pedal when he was at Utah.

At any rate, the fastest guy out of the trio that don't do the back pedal, lost his job.

2. Why do you have so much sympathy for Allen, a veteran CB, who was drafted higher than Jackson, when he (Allen) "failed" his responsibility on a deep route while criticizing Jackson when he (Jackson) was doing his job on an underneath coverage.
You worried about the curl route for Allen, well, it was not his responsibility.
You jumped on Jackson about the deep route, well, it was not his responsibility.
What can I say!?!
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Old 02-25-2011   #44
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Default Re: Vance Joseph DB Coach

On a side note, why I think the shuffle can be a disadvantage for a CB.

On such a pattern like this one, IMO, Allen, if he operates from a backpedal, would try to force the receiver to the outside, where the CB can have the side line as the extra defender that he (the CB) wouldn't have if he turns the receiver inside.

(The middle safety is already taken away by either the slot receiver or the TE from the other side.)

Playing the shuffle with outside technique, especially in cover 3 like this, was a give-away to the QB and the receiver running the route.
They both know the deep middle is empty; a long bomb to the inside will either result in a TD, a long completion, or an incompletion (at the worst).

Technique and coverage scheme need to match for an optimum defense.
Or the guys playing the techniques need to carry them out well (in this case because it was what they were used to out of college.)
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Old 02-25-2011   #45
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Default Re: Vance Joseph DB Coach

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
On a side note, why I think the shuffle can be a disadvantage for a CB.

Technique and coverage scheme need to match for an optimum defense.
Or the guys playing the techniques need to carry them out well (in this case because it was what they were used to out of college.)
I'm no expert, as I've never played CB. But I would think the only time you'd want to shuffle, is if you're expecting a short route with a 3 step drop. The idea would be to keep your eyes on the QB and attack the ball.

But over the last 6 years, it seemed as if our defense has had no "feel" for recognizing down & distance as it relates to other teams tendencies.

Like we never studied game film & applied what was learned to the field.
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Old 02-25-2011   #46
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Default Re: Vance Joseph DB Coach

I think Champ Bailey fooled many a coaches into believing that it is a mainstream technique that can be taught to every cb & its not true.

In high school i was never taught the shuffle. You backpedal until that 5 yard cushion is broken & once that happens you turn & run & get in the WR's "hip pocket". that probably was b/c we mostly ran Cover 3.

In Cover 2, we were just mainly taught to look out for the short routes in front of us & learned to "pass & recieve guys out of our zoned areas.
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Old 02-26-2011   #47
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Default Re: Vance Joseph DB Coach

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Originally Posted by Mr teX View Post
I think Champ Bailey fooled many a coaches into believing that it is a mainstream technique that can be taught to every cb & its not true.

In high school i was never taught the shuffle. You backpedal until that 5 yard cushion is broken & once that happens you turn & run & get in the WR's "hip pocket". that probably was b/c we mostly ran Cover 3.

In Cover 2, we were just mainly taught to look out for the short routes in front of us & learned to "pass & recieve guys out of our zoned areas.
I'm curious as to whether you guys played spot dropping (find your land mark, getting depth, break on the ball and not chasing routes) or pattern matching (read the most immediate threat in your zone in your drop; ie. zone early, man late)?

It sounds like you played spot dropping, didn't you?
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