Go Back   Houston Texans Message Board & Forum - TexansTalk.com > The Great Fans of the Houston Texans > Texans Talk
Home Forums Register FAQDonate Automatic Monthly Contribution Members List Mark Forums Read


Texans Talk Football talk only please. Keep it to the game, the players, the coaches and management.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-06-2005   #21
infantrycak
Lead Moderator
 
infantrycak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Age: 47
Posts: 46,027
Rep Power: 329529 infantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respected
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky
Absolutely correct. The Texans showed far more patience with Wand than any other team would have. If anything, that's a plus in the argument that the Texans will give Wand another shot at the job.
Or other teams had a LT get injured after giving up 8 sacks and the replacement came in and gave up 5. I remember there were a couple/few but can't remember the circumstances--can you? In any event, I was just trying to make sure people understood what you were referencing from the prior thread.
__________________
The Art of War
infantrycak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2005   #22
TexanExile
Square 1 again
 
TexanExile's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Singapore
Age: 43
Posts: 1,605
Rep Power: 3475 TexanExile is a quality contributor and well respectedTexanExile is a quality contributor and well respectedTexanExile is a quality contributor and well respectedTexanExile is a quality contributor and well respectedTexanExile is a quality contributor and well respectedTexanExile is a quality contributor and well respectedTexanExile is a quality contributor and well respectedTexanExile is a quality contributor and well respectedTexanExile is a quality contributor and well respectedTexanExile is a quality contributor and well respectedTexanExile is a quality contributor and well respected
Default

Started him too EARLY? From a team that named David Carr its starter before he was even in minicamp, and has started him every game possible? I don't follow that logic. Houston had to leave him in there to see whether the "project" was worth it.

In my view (which I don't need to repeat and which has been better articulated by Lucky in this thread), the project looks pretty grim. Some fans who gripe about underproduction by high-priced FAs on defense seem to want to let the Wand experiment go on for years. I'd argue that it could be just as damaging for the team to let Wand continue to get steamrolled as it is for one of our highly-paid FA defensive linemen to continue to underachieve.

Unfortunately, I do believe that they're way too far down the road now and have to see this through the first part of the season--unless there's a miracle during training camp and a new candidate for the job suddenly emerges. So Wand's most likely the guy until '06.
TexanExile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2005   #23
nunusguy
Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Houston
Posts: 8,991
Rep Power: 185 nunusguy is a quality contributor and well respectednunusguy is a quality contributor and well respectednunusguy is a quality contributor and well respectednunusguy is a quality contributor and well respectednunusguy is a quality contributor and well respectednunusguy is a quality contributor and well respectednunusguy is a quality contributor and well respectednunusguy is a quality contributor and well respectednunusguy is a quality contributor and well respectednunusguy is a quality contributor and well respectednunusguy is a quality contributor and well respected
Default

Ah but see the biggest consideration in this whole discussion involving Wand is of course DC. Basically Wand as a 3rd round pick is a very minor investment compared to Carr who is even more to us than the overall top pick of the 2002 Draft - as the franchises one and only starting QB he is our MVP (with all due respect to AJ). And its unsettling to consider that Wand is still a work in progress project. He is some distance from being our established LT - the single most important player any team has in protecting the QB. And we're coming into the teams 4th year - gotta wonder how happy Bob McNair is with this situation right about now. Fact the more I think
about the attempt to haul in OP in the ninth inning - was that an act of desperation ?
nunusguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2005   #24
outofhnd
All Pro
 
outofhnd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Dallas, TX
Age: 37
Posts: 723
Rep Power: 10 outofhnd is ridin' the pine
Default

There is too much speculation across the board.

I don't think we will be as bad as they are making our team out to be.

We are playing the weakest NFC division this year, As for the linebacking core it may not be a fearsome quartet of names, But they have the potential to make more plays than our former quartet, with Peek and Babin.

No one is going to have a perfect draft, But we always seem to come out better than average.

I agree with the Defensive line needs. As for LT and the failed Pace deal, that may be a smoke and mirrors ploy so the other 12 teams in front of us think we draft OL this year, and teams that really want Barron to trade up to get ahead of us, or trade positions and picks with us.
outofhnd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2005   #25
Grid
Hall of Fame
 
Grid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 4,299
Rep Power: 2272 Grid is a quality contributor and well respectedGrid is a quality contributor and well respectedGrid is a quality contributor and well respectedGrid is a quality contributor and well respectedGrid is a quality contributor and well respectedGrid is a quality contributor and well respectedGrid is a quality contributor and well respectedGrid is a quality contributor and well respectedGrid is a quality contributor and well respectedGrid is a quality contributor and well respectedGrid is a quality contributor and well respected
Default

I think it is highly unlikely that that was an act of desperation nunusguy. For us to be desperate.. we would have had to first try for all the other talented OTs in FA and fail to get them.

Pace was the only guy we went after.. it seems more likely to me that we were just taking a shot at getting the one player we felt could come in and make an immediate improvement to our Oline. Since we didnt get him.. we arent any worse for wear.. and we do not need Oline help any more than we did before.

I think our coaches are prepared to develope our Oline. Its risky and it sucks.. but its the only decision we really have. There is no way for us to "buy" a good Oline.. and no one we draft is going to be a major improvement over anyone we have now (except maybe McKinney or Wiegert).

Instead of running around like chickens with our heads cut off.. screaming "the sky is falling! the sky is falling!" we are working on timing patterns to get the ball out of Carrs hands quicker.. and im sure we will also figure out ways to get Wand more help over on the left side. basicly.. we are doing everything we can to make sure Carr will be safe.. short of wasting draft picks or cap money on players that arent really gonna come in and make a big difference.

Have faith! hehe.. we have a pretty solid Oline(talent wise anyway).. and if we develop them correctly.. the youth and effectiveness of our Oline will eventually be one of our strengths. (once we replace McKinney and Weigert with young talent.. we will have a pretty young Oline)
Grid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2005   #26
vtech9
Hall of Fame
 
vtech9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Age: 46
Posts: 1,055
Rep Power: 16 vtech9 was voted MVPvtech9 was voted MVPvtech9 was voted MVPvtech9 was voted MVPvtech9 was voted MVP
Send a message via Yahoo to vtech9
Default

Personally, I think Wand did a pretty good job last year. I can't remember all of the sacks that he supposedly gave up, but I can recall a few of them. I can picture at least 2 or 3 times when Wand had his guy blocked but charged with giving up the sack because Carr was forced out of the pocket by pressure coming up the middle. Even though the sack was caused by a let down in the middle, Wand was tagged because it was his man that made the sack, even though there was nothing Wand could do about it. I do remember Wand getting burned by Freeney, but Wand isn't the only LT in the NFL to get burned by Freeney and he won't be the last. Freeney has done a number on just about everyone he has faced. In so saying, I think Wand will do alright this year and turn out to be a pretty damn good LT for us.
vtech9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2005   #27
blockhead83
All Pro
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: College Station, Texas
Age: 31
Posts: 715
Rep Power: 11 blockhead83 is a fan favorite
Send a message via AIM to blockhead83
Default

You know, I would be ecstatic if our OLine could just provide a middle of the pack performance this season. They've been pretty horrible, IMO, the past three seasons. Their only consistent characteristic was their inconsistency. I do agree we have good young talent, and we also have expensive FA signings playing along that young talent. I've taken the approach coming into each season that, either because of new players or a new scheme, that the OL needs time to gel. Well...as far as I can see we'll have the same players and the same scheme this season. And if we don't, please don't blame the problem on that again, because if that's what's causing the problem, maybe we should stop doing it after three unsuccessfull attempts. It's time for our young talent and expensive acquisitions to step up and deliver atleast mediocre to satisfactory pass protection, and solid run support. Hopefully we'll use more quick timing routes and that will atleast make our line's play easier on the eyes.

I'm not advocating quick fixes. I don't suggest new personnel right away, or new coaching. I just want to see improvement, and a line that is better than one of the worst in the league. The OL has been one of the (if not THE) most crippling factor to our offense in three consecutive seasons, hopefully all the thought and effort we've put into it will finally show up a little this year. The offseason is when you're supposed to work on your weaknesses right?

P.S. It would be nice to atleast draft some depth on the first or early second day, I think our current situation warrants that action.
blockhead83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored links
Old 04-06-2005   #28
TexansTrueFan
Hall of Fame
 
TexansTrueFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Huntsville Tx
Age: 29
Posts: 2,600
Rep Power: 13 TexansTrueFan is a team player
Send a message via Yahoo to TexansTrueFan
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blockhead83
You know, I would be ecstatic if our OLine could just provide a middle of the pack performance this season. They've been pretty horrible, IMO, the past three seasons. Their only consistent characteristic was their inconsistency. I do agree we have good young talent, and we also have expensive FA signings playing along that young talent. I've taken the approach coming into each season that, either because of new players or a new scheme, that the OL needs time to gel. Well...as far as I can see we'll have the same players and the same scheme this season. And if we don't, please don't blame the problem on that again, because if that's what's causing the problem, maybe we should stop doing it after three unsuccessfull attempts. It's time for our young talent and expensive acquisitions to step up and deliver atleast mediocre to satisfactory pass protection, and solid run support. Hopefully we'll use more quick timing routes and that will atleast make our line's play easier on the eyes.

I'm not advocating quick fixes. I don't suggest new personnel right away, or new coaching. I just want to see improvement, and a line that is better than one of the worst in the league. The OL has been one of the (if not THE) most crippling factor to our offense in three consecutive seasons, hopefully all the thought and effort we've put into it will finally show up a little this year. The offseason is when you're supposed to work on your weaknesses right?

P.S. It would be nice to atleast draft some depth on the first or early second day, I think our current situation warrants that action.

well we will finally have all the same O-Line coming back after playing a full season together and should be familiar with our new blocking scheme. So if after this year there is no improvment i'm sure we can expect some changes to be made.
TexansTrueFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2005   #29
michaelm
vox nihili
 
michaelm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Spring, TX
Section: 648
Age: 48
Posts: 5,617
Rep Power: 94228 michaelm is a quality contributor and well respectedmichaelm is a quality contributor and well respectedmichaelm is a quality contributor and well respectedmichaelm is a quality contributor and well respectedmichaelm is a quality contributor and well respectedmichaelm is a quality contributor and well respectedmichaelm is a quality contributor and well respectedmichaelm is a quality contributor and well respectedmichaelm is a quality contributor and well respectedmichaelm is a quality contributor and well respectedmichaelm is a quality contributor and well respected
Default

FWIW, in a quick count of the sacks credited against us on nfl.com box scores,
23.5 total sacks are credited to players listed as DE. I haven't looked at it in depth enough to determine the breakdown between right and left DEs, but those are the sacks I counted. Of course, 3 of those were by Freeny in the second game w/ IND, and 3 more are credited to the Colts Robert Mathis in the first game.

Ok, as I am writing this I am going back and forth between here and nfl.com looking at the sack stats against us, and one thing stands out quite a bit.
Of the 23.5 sacks that I see credited to DEs, a full 10 of those are by the Colts DEs... Are the Colts doing something significantly different to be getting that many sacks by the DEs? Additionally, besides having one DE w/ 3 sacks in each game (Mathis and Freeny) no other position posted a sack against us in either of the Colt games. Seems like that might mean something, but what I don't know.
These numbers seem like they have significance to me... maybe one of you more knowlegeable w/ statistics can interpret them in some way.
michaelm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2005   #30
TexansTrueFan
Hall of Fame
 
TexansTrueFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Huntsville Tx
Age: 29
Posts: 2,600
Rep Power: 13 TexansTrueFan is a team player
Send a message via Yahoo to TexansTrueFan
Default

could mean our outside guys on th o-line are a BIG weakness our that everyone we play has awesome DE guys, either way.
TexansTrueFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2005   #31
BornOrange
All Pro
 
Join Date: May 2004
Age: 45
Posts: 556
Rep Power: 15 BornOrange was voted MVPBornOrange was voted MVPBornOrange was voted MVPBornOrange was voted MVPBornOrange was voted MVP
Default

Several thoughts:

1. A true act of desperation would have been to trade two #1 picks for Pace.
2. Not even Barron is guaranteed to start over Wand as a rookie.
3. The Texans definitely need to spend a first day pick on a center, and draft a tackle at some point.
4. The coaches and front office have a lot more experience at player development than we do and they know whether Wand's deficiencies last year were growing pains or if they were inadequacies
BornOrange is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2005   #32
TexansTrueFan
Hall of Fame
 
TexansTrueFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Huntsville Tx
Age: 29
Posts: 2,600
Rep Power: 13 TexansTrueFan is a team player
Send a message via Yahoo to TexansTrueFan
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BornOrange
Several thoughts:

1. A true act of desperation would have been to trade two #1 picks for Pace.
2. Not even Barron is guaranteed to start over Wand as a rookie.
3. The Texans definitely need to spend a first day pick on a center, and draft a tackle at some point.
4. The coaches and front office have a lot more experience at player development than we do and they know whether Wand's deficiencies last year were growing pains or if they were inadequacies

if we do draft a guy i suspect it will be to develope him for the future, we need all the o-line to come back next year, i think since they played together a full year they have had time to Gel, and by putting someone new in there it would only slow their progression down !
TexansTrueFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2005   #33
Wolf
100% Texan
 
Wolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Kerrville
Age: 44
Posts: 37,192
Rep Power: 100543 Wolf is a quality contributor and well respectedWolf is a quality contributor and well respectedWolf is a quality contributor and well respectedWolf is a quality contributor and well respectedWolf is a quality contributor and well respectedWolf is a quality contributor and well respectedWolf is a quality contributor and well respectedWolf is a quality contributor and well respectedWolf is a quality contributor and well respectedWolf is a quality contributor and well respectedWolf is a quality contributor and well respected
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky
In a way, yes. This is Seth Wand's link at Stats.com. It credits Wand with 12.5 sacks allowed. If you go to this link at Stats, you can look up every offensive lineman in the NFL and see his sacks allowed total. The 2 linemen closest to Wand were the Giants LT Luke Petitgout (11.5) & Vikings LG Chris Liwienski (11.75).
It is a little misleading isn't it? Beside Wand getting beat like a red headed step child when playing against freeny, some of those sacks weren't his fault..Many times I'd see the pocket collapse from the Center spot and Carr wouldn't be able to step up in the pocket so he'd roll out and get hit from a DE that Wand or wade would be blocking.
Wolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2005   #34
Lucky
Moderator
 
Lucky's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 13,161
Rep Power: 149994 Lucky is a quality contributor and well respectedLucky is a quality contributor and well respectedLucky is a quality contributor and well respectedLucky is a quality contributor and well respectedLucky is a quality contributor and well respectedLucky is a quality contributor and well respectedLucky is a quality contributor and well respectedLucky is a quality contributor and well respectedLucky is a quality contributor and well respectedLucky is a quality contributor and well respectedLucky is a quality contributor and well respected
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf
It is a little misleading isn't it? Beside Wand getting beat like a red headed step child when playing against freeny, some of those sacks weren't his fault...
Stats, Inc. came up with the stats. The total was actually less than the amount of sacks the oppositions' RDE or ROLB had. And it wasn't just Freeney beating Wand. James Hall had 2.5 sacks. Ekuban had 2. KGB had 2 (and just abused Wand all night). Not to mention the pressures & the hits Carr took after releasing the pass. Who can forget the vicious hit from Eric Barton after Wand let him slip inside untouched on a inside blitz? Regarding Carr rolling from pressure, he usually rolled right. Away from Wand. No, I don't think the total is misleading. I thought it was light the 1st time I saw it, and I went back and checked it from my perspective. I would have credited Wand with 14.5 sacks.
__________________
“We’re looking for a coach that...works with great energy and enthusiasm and very positive in his approach.” - Bob McNair
Lucky is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Houston Texans Message Board & Forum - TexansTalk.com > The Great Fans of the Houston Texans > Texans Talk
Home Forums Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Ad Management by RedTyger