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Old 04-14-2005   #221
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Like I say if the Texans offered Sharper a better deal he probably would have taken it, but he was put in the doghouse, forced to seek a trade and inevitably let go. Texas got nothing in return, that right there says to me that he was let go for reason other than a salary move. There was no reason to cut Sharper when Foreman was let go. Both Hartwell and Bell got decent deals and were not overpaid their worth, unlike Greenwood. There is no way Greenwood is better than Sharper, yet we bring him over and pay him more??? And yes I do think the Texans offered Sharper less even considering what Coleman got, because Coleman was not in the doghouse....although he tried with his off the field antics, he still was not any kind of trouble on it. Sharper had one of his best seasons before last and now he's not worth it? That just doesn't fly. If that were the case then Walker, Glenn, and all the oldies on this team should have been let go.
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Old 04-14-2005   #222
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I agree with SESupergenius.
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Old 04-14-2005   #223
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I follow this team pretty closely....what 'doghouse' are you speaking of? I want to see this Sharper doghouse. Where were the coaches calling him out? Where did they sit him in a game? Other than an imaginary doghouse, I'd like to know what the clues are that the Texans were punishing him or he was out of favor due to some spat. A 1.5 Mil signing bonus over 5 years is ZERO risk for the Seahawks and not what top tier FA's get. That is a pretty good gauge of what the NFL thought of Sharper after the 2004 game film review.
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Old 04-14-2005   #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SESupergenius
Both Hartwell and Bell got decent deals and were not overpaid their worth, unlike Greenwood. There is no way Greenwood is better than Sharper, yet we bring him over and pay him more??? And yes I do think the Texans offered Sharper less even considering what Coleman got, because Coleman was not in the doghouse....although he tried with his off the field antics, he still was not any kind of trouble on it. Sharper had one of his best seasons before last and now he's not worth it? That just doesn't fly. If that were the case then Walker, Glenn, and all the oldies on this team should have been let go.
Hartwell got a 6 year contract worth $26.25M and an $8M signing bonus, I heard all the money was guaranteed though...Bell got 7 years, over $35M, and a $10M signing bonus despite not even passing his physical when he initially signed with the Giants...Both were overpaid...Greenwood may have been overpaid too, but we won't know until we see how he fits in the system...Your "doghouse" argument is extremely flawed...If any one of our players has ever been in the "doghouse", it would be Coleman who was benched due to his DWI charge...Sure Sharper had a decent season in 2003, but so did Foreman...I don't get what makes Foreman so expendable, but people get emotional when Sharper gets cut...Their numbers were relatively equal on 2002 and 2003 and would've been similar in 2004 if Foreman didn't get injured...At least Walker and Glenn have made the Pro Bowl before, which is something Sharper will never taste, sorry to burst your bubble...
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Old 04-14-2005   #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SESupergenius
There is no way Greenwood is better than Sharper, yet we bring him over and pay him more???
According to an unbiased third party source (Pro Football Weekly), Greenwood is the 48th ranked free agent from this offseason and Jamie Sharper is ranked 59th...Looks like somebody out there not named Charley Casserly or Dom Capers thinks Greenwood is a better player than Sharper...
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Old 04-14-2005   #226
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There is no way Greenwood is better than Sharper, yet we bring him over and pay him more???
We didn't pay Greenwood more, Sharper made $6.2 mil last season and was scheduled to make another $6.2 mil this season, the highest Greenwood will be paid for one season will be right at $5 mil in his last contract season which is 2009, so in his last year of his contract he will still make about $1 mil less than Sharper would have made this season...
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Old 04-14-2005   #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny
I follow this team pretty closely....what 'doghouse' are you speaking of? I want to see this Sharper doghouse. Where were the coaches calling him out?
Oh come on now you know what I am talking about, don't play dumb. Here's a clue:

Veteran linebacker Jamie Sharper said the team is headed in the right direction. He added the Texans just needed somebody to lead them there.

"I was done with losing that first season," Sharper said. "No more positives. You have to produce. Somebody has to produce. Somebody has to show us the way. There's a light at the end of the tunnel, but who's going to direct us there? We need somebody to direct us to wins instead of close games."





Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny
Where did they sit him in a game?
Umm, tough to sit him if it's the last game, and one of the worst defeats of the season.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny
Other than an imaginary doghouse, I'd like to know what the clues are that the Texans were punishing him or he was out of favor due to some spat.
Gee I don't know, maybe asking for a trade has something to do with it. Punishing him by offering him an unacceptable deal and ultimately releasing him. I doubt the Texans or Sharper for that matter were going into a media war over the situation and as it stands now there really isn't much coming out of either camp.

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Originally Posted by Vinny
A 1.5 Mil signing bonus over 5 years is ZERO risk for the Seahawks and not what top tier FA's get. That is a pretty good gauge of what the NFL thought of Sharper after the 2004 game film review.
I never considered Sharper a top tier FA, so I don't know where you got that from. Fact is, once Sharper was release he became one of the hotest free agents at that point. If Sharper was all washed up and had no value then he would still be looking for a job.
At what point did Sharper become all washed up in the Texans' eyes because it sure didn't seem that way throughout most of the season.
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Old 04-14-2005   #228
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Originally Posted by texan279
We didn't pay Greenwood more, Sharper made $6.2 mil last season and was scheduled to make another $6.2 mil this season, the highest Greenwood will be paid for one season will be right at $5 mil in his last contract season which is 2009, so in his last year of his contract he will still make about $1 mil less than Sharper would have made this season...
Well let's see....let's get our little calculators out.

Sharper signed a 5 year deal for $17.5, 1.5 guaranteed.
Greenwood signed a 5 year deal for $22.5, 7 guaranteed

22.5 - 17.5 = 5

Greenwood gets paid $5 million more according to his contract, and $5.5 more guaranteed.

Pretty simple class.
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Old 04-14-2005   #229
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A pretty good indicator of Sharper's true value is the fact that he could only squeeze out a $1.5 million signing bonus out of someone after talking to three teams.

Charley said today at the HBJ luncheon that Sharper was not likely to be retained anyway after his contract expired at the end of this season, so - combined with Greenwood's availability (at a price less than Foreman was scheduled to make this year and for the next four years less than what Sharper was making in 03 and 04) they decided to cut the losses a year early instead of letting him play out his contract and then dealing with a hole at the position next year. The locker room stuff could very well be real and could have made the decision to cut him loose easier.
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Old 04-14-2005   #230
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Quote:
Well let's see....let's get our little calculators out.

Sharper signed a 5 year deal for $17.5, 1.5 guaranteed.
Greenwood signed a 5 year deal for $22.5, 7 guaranteed

22.5 - 17.5 = 5

Greenwood gets paid $5 million more according to his contract, and $5.5 more guaranteed.

Pretty simple class.
Do you honestly think Sharper would have stayed here for a 5 year $17.5 million deal? I think not. Not only that, but in 5 years Greenwood will be 31 years old, which is how old Jamie Sharper is now...And do you honestly think Sharper will produce the way he has in the past for the next 5 years? And don't forget, we would have had to pay Sharper $6.2 mil this season, Greenwood will make $550,000 this season, and SHARPER is the one who would not renegotiate his contract.
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Old 04-14-2005   #231
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Those aren't clues he was in a doghouse. Those are quotes where he is speaking out. The doghouse theory is unproven and only in the imagination of those who want to see it. This so called dog house grudge could be real....but, I'd need some proof of it. aj sums this up well.
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Old 04-14-2005   #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-ReK
Hartwell got a 6 year contract worth $26.25M and an $8M signing bonus, I heard all the money was guaranteed though...
The only money guaranteed is the $8m....welcome to the NFL.
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Originally Posted by D-ReK
Bell got 7 years, over $35M, and a $10M signing bonus despite not even passing his physical when he initially signed with the Giants...Both were overpaid.
Ya, I guess the Giants don't know what they are doing and the Texans have the master plan. Bell is a superstar on defense, You barely heard of Greenwood a month ago..[/quote]

Quote:
Originally Posted by D-ReK
Your "doghouse" argument is extremely flawed...If any one of our players has ever been in the "doghouse", it would be Coleman who was benched due to his DWI charge.
It's not flawed at all, Coleman never did anything to shake up coaching staff by questioning their leadership. Apples and oranges.


Quote:
Originally Posted by D-ReK
...Sure Sharper had a decent season in 2003, but so did Foreman...I don't get what makes Foreman so expendable, but people get emotional when Sharper gets cut...Their numbers were relatively equal on 2002 and 2003 and would've been similar in 2004 if Foreman didn't get injured...At least Walker and Glenn have made the Pro Bowl before, which is something Sharper will never taste, sorry to burst your bubble...
What's interesting is how you are now flip flopping according to your statement on these boards about month ago when we signed Greenwood:
03-03-2005
...I think Greenwood will be a decent ILB, definitely better than Foreman, but nowhere near Sharper's level...


...no where near Sharper's level. Well I wouldn't say nowhere near his level like you did, but Sharper is better.
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Old 04-14-2005   #233
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Hartwell has additional base salary guarantees in his contract so his guaranteed money goes beyond the 8 mil signing bonus. It appears his guaranteed money will be 13.25 million over the first three years of his six year deal according to Lenny P

Guaranteed contracts (portions greater than the signing bonus - not the entire amount) have become more and more common in the NFL the last few years.
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Old 04-14-2005   #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SESupergenius
The only money guaranteed is the $8m....welcome to the NFL.
From an ESPN article:

Quote:
Hartwell's six-year contract totals $26.25 million and includes an $8 million signing bonus. There are additional base salary guarantees in the first three seasons of the contract. The deal will pay Hartwell $10 million in its first two years and $13.25 million over the first three seasons.
So Hartwell got $13.25M in guaranteed money, not sure if the signing bonus was factored into that...
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Originally Posted by SESupergenius
Ya, I guess the Giants don't know what they are doing and the Texans have the master plan. Bell is a superstar on defense, You barely heard of Greenwood a month ago..
I was merely pointing out that Bell signed with KC after failing his physical administered by the Giants...Pittsburgh would've kept him if they thought he was worth keeping...Bell got an outrageous contract from a team who desperately needs defense...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SESupergenius
It's not flawed at all, Coleman never did anything to shake up coaching staff by questioning their leadership. Apples and oranges.
Nobody really knows who Sharper was questioning with his comments...He could've just as easily been criticizing Carr...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SESupergenius
What's interesting is how you are now flip flopping according to your statement on these boards about month ago when we signed Greenwood:
03-03-2005
...I think Greenwood will be a decent ILB, definitely better than Foreman, but nowhere near Sharper's level...


...no where near Sharper's level. Well I wouldn't say nowhere near his level like you did, but Sharper is better.
It was foolish of me to pass judgement on a player I have yet to see in his new role...He may be a terrible ILB, or he may become a perennial Pro Bowler...Neither is really likely, but nobody knows how well he will perform as an ILB here...
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Old 04-14-2005   #235
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Quote:
So Hartwell got $13.25M in guaranteed money, not sure if the signing bonus was factored into that...
Hartwell's bases for his first three years are:

2005 $540,000
2006 $2,214,000
2007 $2,878,200

That adds up to around $5.6 million so adding the $8 million puts you right in the ballpark for what Lenny is reporting as guaranteed. In other words, most of his base salary for the first three years of his contract is guaranteed, in addition to his 8 mill signing bonus.
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Old 04-15-2005   #236
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Originally Posted by D-ReK
I was merely pointing out that Bell signed with KC after failing his physical administered by the Giants...Pittsburgh would've kept him if they thought he was worth keeping...Bell got an outrageous contract from a team who desperately needs defense...
I would have had no problem with us signing Bell for that amount of money, I think he is still very good, he's a playmaker and an impact player. Pittsburgh has always let go of players in their prime, so releasing Bell was not that much of a surprise to me. They also found out last year that they have a very good player to replace him. If you want to see an outrageous contract stayed tuned with the Terrell Owens saga.


Quote:
Originally Posted by D-ReK
Nobody really knows who Sharper was questioning with his comments...He could've just as easily been criticizing Carr...
It could have been anyone, yes you are right. But the fact remains that he didn't like what he was seeing and talked about it, that is a major no-no with Capers. Do some research and you will find the same scenario throughout his coaching career. I'm not saying it's all bad because you do need to weed out players that you are losing control over. It's a double edged sword however.


Quote:
Originally Posted by D-ReK
It was foolish of me to pass judgement on a player I have yet to see in his new role...He may be a terrible ILB, or he may become a perennial Pro Bowler...Neither is really likely, but nobody knows how well he will perform as an ILB here...
I hope that he IS a good player, and please, please, please, please, let me be wrong. I want the Texans to be good and criticizing them, particularly the defense is just my expression of "tough love". I thought initially that Greenwood would replace Foreman and we would somehow keep Sharper and restructure his contract. Then we release him without any compensation what so ever and several teams are interested in him. They were shouting "Hey everybody, We don't like Sharper any more and want to get rid of him, any takers?". Knowing that, if I were a GM I would trade for him either because there was a very good chance they were going to cut him and I can shoot for him in FA.
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Old 04-15-2005   #237
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Aside from all the money talk, Jamie Sharper "the man" .. "the personality" will be sadly missed on game day. I believe whole-heartedly that stubbornness on both sides made this come to where we are today. I don't believe he really wanted to go .. I don't think Texans management wanted him gone.

But, we're here now, so Greenwood better be a spectacular talent.
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Old 04-15-2005   #238
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We not only lost Sharper but Foreman as well. Where does this drama end????
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Old 04-15-2005   #239
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We not only lost Sharper but Foreman as well. Where does this drama end????
September 11th, 2005
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Old 04-15-2005   #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aj.
Hartwell's bases for his first three years are:

2005 $540,000
2006 $2,214,000
2007 $2,878,200

That adds up to around $5.6 million so adding the $8 million puts you right in the ballpark for what Lenny is reporting as guaranteed. In other words, most of his base salary for the first three years of his contract is guaranteed, in addition to his 8 mill signing bonus.
That's roughly $4.5 million a year, guaranteed. I still think that considering his age and upside, that is a good contract but not overpaid. Same with Bell, who will be averaging $5.3 over 3 years guanteed. I look at it like its a good value for playmakers (which we are lacking on defense) and who have good upside. We are going to have to pay for playmakers, like we were trying to do with PAce. With this clearing of cap space I feel that we are trying to do something signicant. Maybe trade up and take another high salaried player.
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