Go Back   Houston Texans Message Board & Forum - TexansTalk.com > The Great Fans of the Houston Texans > Texans Talk
Home Forums Register FAQDonate Automatic Monthly Contribution Members List Mark Forums Read


Texans Talk Football talk only please. Keep it to the game, the players, the coaches and management.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-12-2010   #1
Mr. White
H-Town Beatdown
 
Mr. White's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sugar Land
Age: 41
Posts: 6,013
Rep Power: 18101 Mr. White is a quality contributor and well respectedMr. White is a quality contributor and well respectedMr. White is a quality contributor and well respectedMr. White is a quality contributor and well respectedMr. White is a quality contributor and well respectedMr. White is a quality contributor and well respectedMr. White is a quality contributor and well respectedMr. White is a quality contributor and well respectedMr. White is a quality contributor and well respectedMr. White is a quality contributor and well respectedMr. White is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Smith's defense vs. Bush defense

From an X's and O's standpoint, has anything really changed schematically? Can anyone really even tell?

Do we really know anything about the defense at all except it's still a 4-3 with undersized linemen?
__________________
Quote:
@McClain_on_NFL
John McClain
We b trippin with Nelly. Me and Mr Dancing With the Stars Warren Sapp.
Mr. White is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2010   #2
HJam72
Hall of Fame
 
HJam72's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Over here.
Age: 41
Posts: 11,514
Rep Power: 72200 HJam72 is a quality contributor and well respectedHJam72 is a quality contributor and well respectedHJam72 is a quality contributor and well respectedHJam72 is a quality contributor and well respectedHJam72 is a quality contributor and well respectedHJam72 is a quality contributor and well respectedHJam72 is a quality contributor and well respectedHJam72 is a quality contributor and well respectedHJam72 is a quality contributor and well respectedHJam72 is a quality contributor and well respectedHJam72 is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Smith's defense vs. Bush defense

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. White View Post
From an X's and O's standpoint, has anything really changed schematically? Can anyone really even tell?

Do we really know anything about the defense at all except it's still a 4-3 with undersized linemen?
It would sure help this D if we could just hold, and maybe even get a little pressure, at the DT spots.

I think that's the whole problem, other than FSs that aren't REALLY FSs, is an entire coaching staff that doesn't recognize the significance of strong (even if they are a little slow) interior linemen.
__________________

HJam72 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2010   #3
ArlingtonTexan
Moderator
 
ArlingtonTexan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Age: 47
Posts: 6,035
Rep Power: 73193 ArlingtonTexan is a quality contributor and well respectedArlingtonTexan is a quality contributor and well respectedArlingtonTexan is a quality contributor and well respectedArlingtonTexan is a quality contributor and well respectedArlingtonTexan is a quality contributor and well respectedArlingtonTexan is a quality contributor and well respectedArlingtonTexan is a quality contributor and well respectedArlingtonTexan is a quality contributor and well respectedArlingtonTexan is a quality contributor and well respectedArlingtonTexan is a quality contributor and well respectedArlingtonTexan is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Smith's defense vs. Bush defense

They are very different, while neither very effective. Smith was a read and react defense which attempted to have a variety of coverages etc. It was more completed in manyways, but the players always seemed confused as to what to do. It made it look like the Texans did not have a real "style."

Bush's defense is much more aggressive calling for players to run to the ball and in theory be physical and gang tackle. This is why you see so much misdirection work against the Texans, bootlegs, cutback runs, throwbacks, play action, etc. This is simple see ball, go get ball, but Texans are about a half a step to step slow overall to make this defense work.
__________________
It doesn't just seem like I was talking down to people, I was. (Runner 8/4/09).
ArlingtonTexan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2010   #4
b0ng
Ooops
 
b0ng's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Age: 33
Posts: 7,673
Rep Power: 70440 b0ng is a quality contributor and well respectedb0ng is a quality contributor and well respectedb0ng is a quality contributor and well respectedb0ng is a quality contributor and well respectedb0ng is a quality contributor and well respectedb0ng is a quality contributor and well respectedb0ng is a quality contributor and well respectedb0ng is a quality contributor and well respectedb0ng is a quality contributor and well respectedb0ng is a quality contributor and well respectedb0ng is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Smith's defense vs. Bush defense

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArlingtonTexan View Post
They are very different, while neither very effective. Smith was a read and react defense which attempted to have a variety of coverages etc. It was more completed in manyways, but the players always seemed confused as to what to do. It made it look like the Texans did not have a real "style."

Bush's defense is much more aggressive calling for players to run to the ball and in theory be physical and gang tackle. This is why you see so much misdirection work against the Texans, bootlegs, cutback runs, throwbacks, play action, etc. This is simple see ball, go get ball, but Texans are about a half a step to step slow overall to make this defense work.
On top of this, it seems that our players who were great last year have seemingly forgotten how to tackle a ball carrier. When that happens you can pretty much expect any defense to break down because not getting the ball carrier down is a major major problem.
__________________
\_(ツ)_/
http://www.thedrawplay.com/?p=88
b0ng is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2010   #5
beerlover
Site Contributor
 
beerlover's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 12,349
Rep Power: 50265 beerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Smith's defense vs. Bush defense

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArlingtonTexan View Post
They are very different, while neither very effective. Smith was a read and react defense which attempted to have a variety of coverages etc. It was more completed in manyways, but the players always seemed confused as to what to do. It made it look like the Texans did not have a real "style."

Bush's defense is much more aggressive calling for players to run to the ball and in theory be physical and gang tackle. This is why you see so much misdirection work against the Texans, bootlegs, cutback runs, throwbacks, play action, etc. This is simple see ball, go get ball, but Texans are about a half a step to step slow overall to make this defense work.
your dancing close to the target. going along those lines it seems film study & gameplanning is seriously lacking. you can make up those steps by reading cues & understanding tendancies. plus does anyone else notice the Texans wait until halftime to make defensive adjustments?
__________________

2012 Draft was Mercilus
beerlover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2010   #6
playa465
Site Contributor
 
playa465's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 832
Rep Power: 1969 playa465 is a quality contributor and well respectedplaya465 is a quality contributor and well respectedplaya465 is a quality contributor and well respectedplaya465 is a quality contributor and well respectedplaya465 is a quality contributor and well respectedplaya465 is a quality contributor and well respectedplaya465 is a quality contributor and well respectedplaya465 is a quality contributor and well respectedplaya465 is a quality contributor and well respectedplaya465 is a quality contributor and well respectedplaya465 is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Smith's defense vs. Bush defense

Quote:
Originally Posted by beerlover View Post
plus does anyone else notice the Texans wait until halftime to make defensive adjustments?
Unfortunately this is old news with this coaching staff. Its like our coaches are so zoned into what they are trying to do...they refuse to think their plan cant work at times...even when it is clearly not working to everyone on the planet
playa465 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2010   #7
Rey
Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 14,475
Rep Power: 0 Rey is a quality contributor and well respectedRey is a quality contributor and well respectedRey is a quality contributor and well respectedRey is a quality contributor and well respectedRey is a quality contributor and well respectedRey is a quality contributor and well respectedRey is a quality contributor and well respectedRey is a quality contributor and well respectedRey is a quality contributor and well respectedRey is a quality contributor and well respectedRey is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Smith's defense vs. Bush defense

The fact that Bush's defense is being compared to Smith's is pretty sad....
Rey is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored links
Old 11-13-2010   #8
infantrycak
Lead Moderator
 
infantrycak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Age: 47
Posts: 45,345
Rep Power: 303034 infantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Smith's defense vs. Bush defense

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArlingtonTexan View Post
They are very different, while neither very effective. Smith was a read and react defense which attempted to have a variety of coverages etc. It was more completed in manyways, but the players always seemed confused as to what to do. It made it look like the Texans did not have a real "style."

Bush's defense is much more aggressive calling for players to run to the ball and in theory be physical and gang tackle. This is why you see so much misdirection work against the Texans, bootlegs, cutback runs, throwbacks, play action, etc. This is simple see ball, go get ball, but Texans are about a half a step to step slow overall to make this defense work.
Exactly. The result of a poor defense may be the same but the theoretical D is not similar.
__________________
The Art of War
infantrycak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2010   #9
jaayteetx
Hall of Fame
 
jaayteetx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Albuquerque,NM
Section: 623
Age: 40
Posts: 3,435
Rep Power: 25091 jaayteetx is a quality contributor and well respectedjaayteetx is a quality contributor and well respectedjaayteetx is a quality contributor and well respectedjaayteetx is a quality contributor and well respectedjaayteetx is a quality contributor and well respectedjaayteetx is a quality contributor and well respectedjaayteetx is a quality contributor and well respectedjaayteetx is a quality contributor and well respectedjaayteetx is a quality contributor and well respectedjaayteetx is a quality contributor and well respectedjaayteetx is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Smith's defense vs. Bush defense

To answer the question, no, not really.
__________________
Oh no! We suck again!
jaayteetx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2010   #10
76Texan
Hall of Fame
 
76Texan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,503
Rep Power: 81730 76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Smith's defense vs. Bush defense

Richard Smith's is a base 4-3 defense in which you normally see only 4 defenders on the LOS (it's pretty much the same as Jimmy Johnson's 4-3 Miami defense, but the Texans don't blitz as often.)

Bush bring more men to the LOS (or very close to the LOS) on a much more frequent basis, whether with 4 or 3 DL-men (or 2 on a few occasions.)

This create more opportunities for TFLs or tackle near the LOS.
The downside is if one guy loses gap integretity, the opponent can bust for long yardage.
In the passing game, it means more guys closer to get after the QB.
The downside is that the defenders (the LBs or an occasional safety playing up close) have further to drop back into coverage.
There's more room in the middle.

Also a CB can be found on an island more often since Bush also bring a safety up more often. (That safety being Pollard, who looks bad in cover 2 anyway, except for the times when they have him attack the ball instead of waiting to break on the ball; ie. anticipating the throw instead of waiting for the QB to get set and ready to throw.)

In this scheme, if the players aren't on the same page, it hurts deeper since you don't have as many defenders in the middle to deep areas.
76Texan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2010   #11
Mr. White
H-Town Beatdown
 
Mr. White's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sugar Land
Age: 41
Posts: 6,013
Rep Power: 18101 Mr. White is a quality contributor and well respectedMr. White is a quality contributor and well respectedMr. White is a quality contributor and well respectedMr. White is a quality contributor and well respectedMr. White is a quality contributor and well respectedMr. White is a quality contributor and well respectedMr. White is a quality contributor and well respectedMr. White is a quality contributor and well respectedMr. White is a quality contributor and well respectedMr. White is a quality contributor and well respectedMr. White is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Smith's defense vs. Bush defense

Another question....

What's the theory behind our undersized DT's? What's the advantage to having smaller, lighter guys as opposed to the "space eaters?"
__________________
Quote:
@McClain_on_NFL
John McClain
We b trippin with Nelly. Me and Mr Dancing With the Stars Warren Sapp.
Mr. White is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2010   #12
Texan4Ever
Hall of Fame
 
Texan4Ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: The Great State of Texas
Section: My couch
Age: 24
Posts: 4,087
Rep Power: 17475 Texan4Ever is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan4Ever is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan4Ever is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan4Ever is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan4Ever is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan4Ever is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan4Ever is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan4Ever is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan4Ever is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan4Ever is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan4Ever is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Smith's defense vs. Bush defense

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. White View Post
Another question....

What's the theory behind our undersized DT's? What's the advantage to having smaller, lighter guys as opposed to the "space eaters?"

I was always under the impression that teams should have a speedy DT who can shoot the gaps and a space eater who took on double teams to ensure that the speedy DT could do what was required.
Texan4Ever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2010   #13
HJam72
Hall of Fame
 
HJam72's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Over here.
Age: 41
Posts: 11,514
Rep Power: 72200 HJam72 is a quality contributor and well respectedHJam72 is a quality contributor and well respectedHJam72 is a quality contributor and well respectedHJam72 is a quality contributor and well respectedHJam72 is a quality contributor and well respectedHJam72 is a quality contributor and well respectedHJam72 is a quality contributor and well respectedHJam72 is a quality contributor and well respectedHJam72 is a quality contributor and well respectedHJam72 is a quality contributor and well respectedHJam72 is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Smith's defense vs. Bush defense

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texan4Ever View Post
I was always under the impression that teams should have a speedy DT who can shoot the gaps and a space eater who took on double teams to ensure that the speedy DT could do what was required.
I thought that's what LBs were for...

I remember during the Cowboys' heyday with Jimmy Johnson, the play-by-play guys would brag about the speed of their DLs, even on the inside. I also know that the 4-3 calls for quicker guys than the 3-4, BUT I'm sick of seeing the 2 DTs go or get pushed around to the outside, like they are following the DEs, and letting the QB step up and have all day to throw....or VY, who will just run it for about 40 yds.
__________________

HJam72 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2010   #14
thunderkyss 
& so it begins
 
thunderkyss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Texas
Age: 42
Posts: 33,837
Rep Power: 216695 thunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respected
Send a message via Yahoo to thunderkyss
Default Re: Smith's defense vs. Bush defense

Quote:
Originally Posted by beerlover View Post
your dancing close to the target. going along those lines it seems film study & gameplanning is seriously lacking. you can make up those steps by reading cues & understanding tendancies. plus does anyone else notice the Texans wait until halftime to make defensive adjustments?
I don't know that film study is lacking, but it is clear whoever is running that film study is not I repeat Not effectively identifying tendencies, formations, or anything that would go into an affective game plan.

Neither does it appear those studies are held to determine what our mistakes were & how we should go about fixing those mistakes.

I can imagine our film study, "Okay guys.... did you see how he caught that ball over the middle & turned it into a big play? We have to watch for that & not let that happen. On the next play, you see the RB gets a big gain going right up the middle..... we can't let that happen either. On the last play, you'll see the QB get sacked. We want to do that as many times as we can.

OK, I think we're ready for Sunday, now let's hit the showers. last one there is a rotten egg..... "
__________________
thunderkyss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2010   #15
FirstTexansFan
The Unknown Fan
 
FirstTexansFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: New Braunfels, Tx.
Age: 56
Posts: 2,293
Rep Power: 27501 FirstTexansFan is a quality contributor and well respectedFirstTexansFan is a quality contributor and well respectedFirstTexansFan is a quality contributor and well respectedFirstTexansFan is a quality contributor and well respectedFirstTexansFan is a quality contributor and well respectedFirstTexansFan is a quality contributor and well respectedFirstTexansFan is a quality contributor and well respectedFirstTexansFan is a quality contributor and well respectedFirstTexansFan is a quality contributor and well respectedFirstTexansFan is a quality contributor and well respectedFirstTexansFan is a quality contributor and well respected
Send a message via MSN to FirstTexansFan
Default Re: Smith's defense vs. Bush defense

There is no defense for the defense either of these guys have put on the field
__________________
Dread-Head's #1 Fan, Because He Hates The Cowboys As Much As Me!
FirstTexansFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2010   #16
Hagar
Drink up yall, its the Texans!
 
Hagar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Age: 48
Posts: 2,066
Rep Power: 8880 Hagar is a quality contributor and well respectedHagar is a quality contributor and well respectedHagar is a quality contributor and well respectedHagar is a quality contributor and well respectedHagar is a quality contributor and well respectedHagar is a quality contributor and well respectedHagar is a quality contributor and well respectedHagar is a quality contributor and well respectedHagar is a quality contributor and well respectedHagar is a quality contributor and well respectedHagar is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Smith's defense vs. Bush defense

I don't see a difference between Smith's defense and Bush's defense.

Kubes brought in Smith because he couldn't get Bush. Then, when Bush was available, he went out hired him as the Assistant to the Head Coach Defense. This position gave Bush indirect responsibility for the defense. So, its not suprising that the defenses are similar.
Hagar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2010   #17
Hervoyel
The Right Track
 
Hervoyel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Age: 49
Posts: 14,672
Rep Power: 247537 Hervoyel is a quality contributor and well respectedHervoyel is a quality contributor and well respectedHervoyel is a quality contributor and well respectedHervoyel is a quality contributor and well respectedHervoyel is a quality contributor and well respectedHervoyel is a quality contributor and well respectedHervoyel is a quality contributor and well respectedHervoyel is a quality contributor and well respectedHervoyel is a quality contributor and well respectedHervoyel is a quality contributor and well respectedHervoyel is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Smith's defense vs. Bush defense

I'm thinking it's a "douche vs turd sandwich" where Smith's defense vs Bush's defense is concerned
__________________
A wise man once said "...well at this point it's all been hashed out and you either see it or don't. Hoping for a win next week" - HTown2ATX
Hervoyel is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2010   #18
Rey
Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 14,475
Rep Power: 0 Rey is a quality contributor and well respectedRey is a quality contributor and well respectedRey is a quality contributor and well respectedRey is a quality contributor and well respectedRey is a quality contributor and well respectedRey is a quality contributor and well respectedRey is a quality contributor and well respectedRey is a quality contributor and well respectedRey is a quality contributor and well respectedRey is a quality contributor and well respectedRey is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Smith's defense vs. Bush defense

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. White View Post
Another question....

What's the theory behind our undersized DT's? What's the advantage to having smaller, lighter guys as opposed to the "space eaters?"
Our DT's haven't been all that light compared to DT's in other 4-3's. With the exception of Amobi losing a lot of weight this year, our D-line is actually pretty big if you look at other 4-3 D-linemen. Our DT's are average, and our DE's are big.

Our LB's are big as well.

Compared to other 4-3's our front seven is actually bigger than normal.


Space eating DT's are normally found in 3-4's. Check around...It's been a big mis-conception for a while, but our DT's are not light, comparatively speaking...

And I'm glad people are actually wising up to the fact that Demeco isn't small...

Seems like if stuff gets repeated often enough it starts to become fact...
Rey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2010   #19
TEXANRED
Texan-American
 
TEXANRED's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Age: 38
Posts: 7,165
Rep Power: 44942 TEXANRED is a quality contributor and well respectedTEXANRED is a quality contributor and well respectedTEXANRED is a quality contributor and well respectedTEXANRED is a quality contributor and well respectedTEXANRED is a quality contributor and well respectedTEXANRED is a quality contributor and well respectedTEXANRED is a quality contributor and well respectedTEXANRED is a quality contributor and well respectedTEXANRED is a quality contributor and well respectedTEXANRED is a quality contributor and well respectedTEXANRED is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Smith's defense vs. Bush defense

It's more like comparing a big steaming bowl of turd to a big steaming bowl of turd.
__________________
I am in an abusive relationship with life and I am to cowardly to leave it. - Homer Simpson.

TEXANRED is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2010   #20
Thorn 
Dirty Old Man
 
Thorn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Houston
Section: Restrained in the mental ward
Age: 63
Posts: 21,599
Rep Power: 223599 Thorn is a quality contributor and well respectedThorn is a quality contributor and well respectedThorn is a quality contributor and well respectedThorn is a quality contributor and well respectedThorn is a quality contributor and well respectedThorn is a quality contributor and well respectedThorn is a quality contributor and well respectedThorn is a quality contributor and well respectedThorn is a quality contributor and well respectedThorn is a quality contributor and well respectedThorn is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Smith's defense vs. Bush defense

Who cares what the difference is, neither defense from those two coaches works anyway.
__________________


"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid." --- John Wayne
Thorn is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Houston Texans Message Board & Forum - TexansTalk.com > The Great Fans of the Houston Texans > Texans Talk
Home Forums Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:42 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Ad Management by RedTyger