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Old 10-27-2010   #21
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Default Re: Beerlover Mocks "BYE" Week

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Originally Posted by ArlingtonTexan View Post
My first peak into a mock draft to see the prospects people are intereted in for my NCAA watching. Need to leave before I comment on how early it is for a mock though.
When I buy a new car sometimes I just sit in it or I wash it even if I am not taking it out. Anyway, bye bye! Back to the thread for those of us that enjoy.
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Old 10-27-2010   #22
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Default Re: Beerlover Mocks "BYE" Week

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Originally Posted by Goldensilence View Post
If I was a being honest I'm tired of sinking 1st round picks into the dl and getting such mixed results. I think we have a better chance to get an impact player at a different position.

I agree on your concerns with Barwin's health going into next season. I guess I'd also like to see what the FO intentions are with Anderson and Ogun before I start looking at a 1st round DE. If we can get either to come back and make a bigger impact it would alleviate the need to look so early.

I also never like the idea of taking a pass rush specialist early who is likely to see limited snaps. Though I do admit it would be nice to have a viable backupnin case either starter goes down.

As others have pointed out its just the bye week and for fun. We still have time for the season to play out in boh college and pro football.
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Originally Posted by beerlover View Post
I echo your sentiment, its hard to go back in there with another pick but just look what the NY Giants have done over the past few years in the draft. They have basicly grabbed the best 4-3 end available & filled other positions later or via free agency. it's no wonder they have one of the most feared front four rotations in the NFL. So I see nothing wrong with continue investment in pass rushers & help along the DL early. the problem has been evaluation of said talent, in the Texans case, maybe we just don't trust them in this department?

2003 Osi Umenyiora, DE 2nd rd.
2004 Reggie Torbor, DE 4th rd.
2005 Justin Tuck, DE 3rd rd.
2006 Mathias Kiwanuka, DE 1st rd.
2007 Jay Alford, DT 3rd rd.
2008 Robert Henderson, DE 6th
2009 Clint Sintim, DE/OLB 2nd rd.
2010 Jason Pierre-Paul, DE 1st
I agree with BL. I would like to add the following:

Looking at the team in general, the best way to build a strong perennial contender is to continue to add to impact positions. On the NFL football team I would say the following are "impact positions": QB, LT, DE/NT (depending on 4-3 or 3-4), Shutdown CB. Thats it. All the other positions are important, but if you do not have very good players in these positions you can struggle. Now, you can do some compensating as I will demonstrate.

1. Offense: QB/LT. This situation basically states you need a strong QB and solid LT to be a contender. Unless you have a Peyton Manning, you pretty much need a cornerstone LT. A Cornerstone LT can prop up an Avg QB and vice versa. IE important to have both.

2. Defense: DE/NT/OLB & Shutdown CB. If playing a 3-4 You MUST have a studly 3-4 NT. If you don't you are in essence screwed. Studly DE/OLB are important to apply pressure. A shutdown cb can cut off the field.

Now, this is where it gets tricky:which positions are easier/tougher to find. I would say the shutdown CB is probably the toughest position to find in football. In my mind there are 2 shutdown CBs in the league: AS in oakland and DR in NYJ. That's it. Finding one of these guys is exceedingly rare. In comparison I would say there are 10 very good QBs, a dozen or more excellent DE/OLB, and a handful of great NTs.

So, as 4-3 team, we have to also consider value when picking. How many QBs can you really play in a game? I would say 1. So, once you get your QB, you generally don't want another. How many LTs do you want? Again, you really want that single LT out there. How many DEs can play in a game? Well theoretically you can play multiple DE by using rotations.

This is the reason you WANT to draft DEs. You can continuously shuttle them in and out. Plus, the misrate of DEs is not as bad as other positions. This is especially true if you draft passrush specialists and use him at his strength early on. Then teach him just enough to be a decent run stopper. Then you can constantly cycle in new fresh ones.

The same argument can be made for the 3-4 player. I would argue that drafting 4-3 DEs is a smart move for a team becuase the success rate is higher than looking for shutdown corners. A strong DE can make a poor CB look better. A studly CB can make a poor DE look better. The probability of finding the stud DE> than Shutdown CB. Thus, continue to go after DE unless there is an obvious glaring need.
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Old 10-27-2010   #23
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Default Re: Beerlover Mocks "BYE" Week

Im more inclined to place a priority on DT rather than DE...

I'd also like to see us take a CB and or FS early. I like the Jarrett pick...I had him in one of the mocks I did...
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Old 10-27-2010   #24
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Default Re: Beerlover Mocks "BYE" Week

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Im more inclined to place a priority on DT rather than DE...

I'd also like to see us take a CB and or FS early. I like the Jarrett pick...I had him in one of the mocks I did...
IMO, a DE is worth more than a DE. Plus with some DEs, you can actually put them in at DT on some situations(see A. Smith). You generally don't see DTs playing DE. Also, there is a higher bust rate on higher rated DTs than DE.
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Old 10-27-2010   #25
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Default Re: Beerlover Mocks "BYE" Week

If I were to ever build a team, this is how I would build it:

OFFENSE: Take a franchise left tackle, quarterback, wide receiver, center and running back in this order.

DEFENSE: DE, MLB, CB, S, and then fill the other positions


I support the belief that you build from the trenches and out. Also, having a lights-out D can help you get to the Super Bowl even with a sporadic QB (e.g. Rex Grossman and the Bears)
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Old 10-27-2010   #26
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Default Re: Beerlover Mocks "BYE" Week

Really like you mock.

Seems to fill most of the holes.

Wish you were doing the drafting instead of R.Smith. Because we seem to be on the same page.

All of these guys are relentless hard nosed players. Something that this current Texans team is lacking. IMHO

I will be posting my Texans all defense mock soon. I'm looking forward to your critique.
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Old 10-27-2010   #27
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Default Re: Beerlover Mocks "BYE" Week

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Originally Posted by awtysst View Post
IMO, a DE is worth more than a DE. Plus with some DEs, you can actually put them in at DT on some situations(see A. Smith). You generally don't see DTs playing DE. Also, there is a higher bust rate on higher rated DTs than DE.
Not sure what that has to do with an individual team's needs

If we are going to draft off of which positions are more important then why not just draft all QB's? or all CB's?

The fact that a DE may be the position of higher value is almost non-relevant to me.

Just about every team has a good edge rusher. Not many have dominant DT's. Although the bust rate may be higher for DT's the draft is one of the few avenues to obtain them.
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Old 10-27-2010   #28
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Default Re: Beerlover Mocks "BYE" Week

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Not sure what that has to do with an individual team's needs

If we are going to draft off of which positions are more important then why not just draft all QB's? or all CB's?

The fact that a DE may be the position of higher value is almost non-relevant to me.

Just about every team has a good edge rusher. Not many have dominant DT's. Although the bust rate may be higher for DT's the draft is one of the few avenues to obtain them.
Sure, just about every team has a(ie 1) good edge rusher. You can really throw the Offensive coordinator fits if you have 2 good edge rushers. Now if you have 3 good edge rushers, you can rotate them and have one come in as a DT on pass plays. if you have 4 you can rotate them AND have one come in at DT on pass plays.

Lets say you have one probowl caliber DE. Which would you rather do: draft three straight high motor DEs who can get after the QB or three straight DTs who may be able to push forwad, but more than likely will be an Okoye type player? I say go get those high motor DEs and get value DTs like Earl Mitchell later on.
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Old 10-28-2010   #29
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Default Re: Beerlover Mocks "BYE" Week

Quote:
Originally Posted by awtysst View Post
I agree with BL. I would like to add the following:

Looking at the team in general, the best way to build a strong perennial contender is to continue to add to impact positions. On the NFL football team I would say the following are "impact positions": QB, LT, DE/NT (depending on 4-3 or 3-4), Shutdown CB. Thats it. All the other positions are important, but if you do not have very good players in these positions you can struggle. Now, you can do some compensating as I will demonstrate.

1. Offense: QB/LT. This situation basically states you need a strong QB and solid LT to be a contender. Unless you have a Peyton Manning, you pretty much need a cornerstone LT. A Cornerstone LT can prop up an Avg QB and vice versa. IE important to have both.

2. Defense: DE/NT/OLB & Shutdown CB. If playing a 3-4 You MUST have a studly 3-4 NT. If you don't you are in essence screwed. Studly DE/OLB are important to apply pressure. A shutdown cb can cut off the field.

Now, this is where it gets tricky:which positions are easier/tougher to find. I would say the shutdown CB is probably the toughest position to find in football. In my mind there are 2 shutdown CBs in the league: AS in oakland and DR in NYJ. That's it. Finding one of these guys is exceedingly rare. In comparison I would say there are 10 very good QBs, a dozen or more excellent DE/OLB, and a handful of great NTs.

So, as 4-3 team, we have to also consider value when picking. How many QBs can you really play in a game? I would say 1. So, once you get your QB, you generally don't want another. How many LTs do you want? Again, you really want that single LT out there. How many DEs can play in a game? Well theoretically you can play multiple DE by using rotations.

This is the reason you WANT to draft DEs. You can continuously shuttle them in and out. Plus, the misrate of DEs is not as bad as other positions. This is especially true if you draft passrush specialists and use him at his strength early on. Then teach him just enough to be a decent run stopper. Then you can constantly cycle in new fresh ones.

The same argument can be made for the 3-4 player. I would argue that drafting 4-3 DEs is a smart move for a team becuase the success rate is higher than looking for shutdown corners. A strong DE can make a poor CB look better. A studly CB can make a poor DE look better. The probability of finding the stud DE> than Shutdown CB. Thus, continue to go after DE unless there is an obvious glaring need.
Very good analysis!
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Old 10-28-2010   #30
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Default Re: Beerlover Mocks "BYE" Week

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
Im more inclined to place a priority on DT rather than DE...

I'd also like to see us take a CB and or FS early. I like the Jarrett pick...I had him in one of the mocks I did...
On the Texans current roster, I agree with you. I see only one DT that might be there at our first round pick. If not, I'll probably select a DE depending if Brandon Harris a shut down CB is there. That would bring me to reflection.
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Old 10-28-2010   #31
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Default Re: Beerlover Mocks "BYE" Week

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Originally Posted by awtysst View Post
Sure, just about every team has a(ie 1) good edge rusher. You can really throw the Offensive coordinator fits if you have 2 good edge rushers. Now if you have 3 good edge rushers, you can rotate them and have one come in as a DT on pass plays. if you have 4 you can rotate them AND have one come in at DT on pass plays.

Lets say you have one probowl caliber DE. Which would you rather do: draft three straight high motor DEs who can get after the QB or three straight DTs who may be able to push forwad, but more than likely will be an Okoye type player? I say go get those high motor DEs and get value DTs like Earl Mitchell later on.
What about mixing a high motor DT like Auburn's Fairly next to Okoye,Williams and either Barwin or A.Smith? I want to force the QB to move out of the pocket(at least most of them) and disrupt their focus. I envision forcing the Qb into the path of the DE; this also allows the DT to adjust to a run play hopefully behind the LOS.
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Old 10-28-2010   #32
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Default Re: Beerlover Mocks "BYE" Week

I could not mock Fairley late 1st. plus this mock considers only senior prospects. When he makes his decision known I'll take the body of his work & project him forward. there is no doubt he could help Texans front four. Right now he projects Top 10 in 2012. I think he would be ideal as a 3-4 DE/DT. He kinda dominates like Richard Seymour when he played @ Georgia who also had a great DL & he was selected 6th overall, he is that kind of DT/DE who can press the edge & create lanes for OLB's. Hence he is more than just a run plugger & is athletic enough to fit various schemes.

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10/26/10 - WEEK 8 TOP PERFORMER: Auburn quarterback Cam Newton emerged as the Heisman frontrunner with his record-breaking performance against LSU, but it was his teammate, junior defensive tackle Nick Fairley, who made the greater impression on NFL scouts. The 6-foot-4, 298-pound Fairley registered six tackles, including 3 tackles for loss and 2 sacks, in the SEC battle of unbeatens and is leaping up draft boards. The dominance Fairley showed in the high-profile contest was similar to the game Ndamukong Suh had against Colt McCoy and the Texas Longhorns in last year's Big 12 Championship Game. Fairley's strong game shouldn't come as a surprise. He entered the game leading the SEC with 13 tackles for loss and ranked second in sacks with five. Fairley has been particularly impressive in the month of October. He was recognized as the SEC Defensive Lineman of the Week against Louisiana-Monroe on Oct. 4, and again after posting a career-high eight tackles against Arkansas a week ago. It is safe to say Fairley will successfully defend his title and once again be recognized by the SEC after this performance. The more lasting recognition Fairley might earn could come in April. Only a junior, Fairley has been the country's most dominant defensive tackle so far in 2010 and is worthy of a first-round selection. - Rob Rang, NFLDraftScout.com
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Old 10-28-2010   #33
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Default Re: Beerlover Mocks "BYE" Week

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I could not mock Fairley late 1st. plus this mock considers only senior prospects. When he makes his decision known I'll take the body of his work & project him forward. there is no doubt he could help Texans front four. Right now he projects Top 10 in 2012. I think he would be ideal as a 3-4 DE/DT. He kinda dominates like Richard Seymour when he played @ Georgia who also had a great DL & he was selected 6th overall, he is that kind of DT/DE who can press the edge & create lanes for OLB's. Hence he is more than just a run plugger & is athletic enough to fit various schemes.
I definitely agree he can play both 4-3 and 3-4. Kid is just that good.
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Old 10-28-2010   #34
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Default Re: Beerlover Mocks "BYE" Week

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Originally Posted by awtysst View Post
Sure, just about every team has a(ie 1) good edge rusher. You can really throw the Offensive coordinator fits if you have 2 good edge rushers. Now if you have 3 good edge rushers, you can rotate them and have one come in as a DT on pass plays. if you have 4 you can rotate them AND have one come in at DT on pass plays.

Lets say you have one probowl caliber DE. Which would you rather do: draft three straight high motor DEs who can get after the QB or three straight DTs who may be able to push forwad, but more than likely will be an Okoye type player? I say go get those high motor DEs and get value DTs like Earl Mitchell later on.
I hear what you're saying, but I just think a good DT is a bigger priority for this team vs a good DE. We already have a DE that we rotate to the DT spot.

Not only that, but you are making an assumption about picking up a DE and being able to move them to DT in passing situations. Connor Barwin is a DE that we took, but he is not a guy that you would move down to the DT position. Antonio Smith has the skill set to do so, but it is not guaranteed that any DE we take will be able to do so.

I don't think you can look at the situation in a vacuum. Otherwise we'd always just get any old DT and always place a supreme priority on DE's. I think you have to look at a teams situation.

I think if we can add a dominant or even semi-dominant DT to this mix that we already have then it would make us better defensively.

Of course, if there is a DE on the board who's value is much higher than any other prospect then you take him.

But that really has little to do with what positions we need to fill the most.
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Old 10-28-2010   #35
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Default Re: Beerlover Mocks "BYE" Week

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I hear what you're saying, but I just think a good DT is a bigger priority for this team vs a good DE. We already have a DE that we rotate to the DT spot.

Not only that, but you are making an assumption about picking up a DE and being able to move them to DT in passing situations. Connor Barwin is a DE that we took, but he is not a guy that you would move down to the DT position. Antonio Smith has the skill set to do so, but it is not guaranteed that any DE we take will be able to do so.

I don't think you can look at the situation in a vacuum. Otherwise we'd always just get any old DT and always place a supreme priority on DE's. I think you have to look at a teams situation.

I think if we can add a dominant or even semi-dominant DT to this mix that we already have then it would make us better defensively.

Of course, if there is a DE on the board who's value is much higher than any other prospect then you take him.
DT CJ Wilson, ECU who I'd rated 4th/5th rd. slipped in last years draft to the 7th rd. taken by Green Bay. Guess what because of injury he has started the last two games & looked damn good doing it. I think he had like 8 tackles second most on the team last week behind Hawk. He blew up a couple key plays on Peterson & the Vikings. Point is it's easier to find value later because teams struggle evaluating the position. In the Texans scheme he is the perfect example of what your describing a strongside DE who can flip inside to tackle, ala Antonio Smith.


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But that really has little to do with what positions we need to fill the most.
I really don't understand how you can make this statement when PASS RUSH is needed above any other area for this team to move forward. Despite spending two first round picks on DT's & one third they still have not impacted the pass rush. Yet the only accomplishment pass rushing wise was the one first round pick, still on the roster (Babin is doing fine in Tennessee with 6 sacks thank you) is Mario. Funny how the highly anticipated pass rush became non-existant once Barwin was lost for the season (into next year as well) & people still don't think the Texans need to invest in another high quality pass rusher?
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Old 10-28-2010   #36
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Default Re: Beerlover Mocks "BYE" Week

Pass rushing DE is a must

Cb/S are huge needs also.

That's why I'm all for trading into the bottonm of the 1st rd. In addition to what I hope is a low 1st rd pick that is the Texans

Kerrigan or Bowers would be my choice.

Then with the 2nd first rd pick taking a guy like Jimmy Smith would be ideal. (Love this pick BL)

Then you could fix the LB's in FA and the rest of the draft.
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Old 10-29-2010   #37
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Default Re: Beerlover Mocks "BYE" Week

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DT CJ Wilson, ECU who I'd rated 4th/5th rd. slipped in last years draft to the 7th rd. taken by Green Bay. Guess what because of injury he has started the last two games & looked damn good doing it. I think he had like 8 tackles second most on the team last week behind Hawk. He blew up a couple key plays on Peterson & the Vikings. Point is it's easier to find value later because teams struggle evaluating the position. In the Texans scheme he is the perfect example of what your describing a strongside DE who can flip inside to tackle, ala Antonio Smith.




I really don't understand how you can make this statement when PASS RUSH is needed above any other area for this team to move forward. Despite spending two first round picks on DT's & one third they still have not impacted the pass rush. Yet the only accomplishment pass rushing wise was the one first round pick, still on the roster (Babin is doing fine in Tennessee with 6 sacks thank you) is Mario. Funny how the highly anticipated pass rush became non-existant once Barwin was lost for the season (into next year as well) & people still don't think the Texans need to invest in another high quality pass rusher?
Might the bolded have more to do with whom they drafted? Okoye was purely hype & some thought he should be taken much, much later and TJ? snicker. Were not most of us a bit surprised when Mitchell was selected in third? And then most of us went HARUMPH oh yeah he is fast. I say fast. He will beat out Okoye game one. That still has not happened. I say our defensive philosphy is screwy. My focus is for DTs to first stop the run and second to push the pocket or at least tie up more than one opponent sort of like a nose tackle does in a 3-4. The DEs should get the sacks when the QB is forced out by the collapsing pocket or when a DE beats the O for a quick trip to QB land. We now have three very good ends; Mario, Barwin and Smith. Barwin should be back based upon what we know and if you want insurance in draft, cool but mocking one now before we know Barwin's status might be compared to mocking Fairley before he has commited. (wink)
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Old 10-29-2010   #38
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Default Re: Beerlover Mocks "BYE" Week

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Pass rushing DE is a must

Cb/S are huge needs also.

That's why I'm all for trading into the bottonm of the 1st rd. In addition to what I hope is a low 1st rd pick that is the Texans

Kerrigan or Bowers would be my choice.

Then with the 2nd first rd pick taking a guy like Jimmy Smith would be ideal. (Love this pick BL)

Then you could fix the LB's in FA and the rest of the draft.
Interesting. If you are using our own first late for Kerrigan or Bowers and our second for Smith (my pick also) what are you giving up to trade up into first round for another pick? You would have to give up a third and a 1st and 2nd next year imo. Unless you were talking about trading down & using that for a DE and getting an extra pick?
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Old 10-29-2010   #39
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Default Re: Beerlover Mocks "BYE" Week

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Might the bolded have more to do with whom they drafted? Okoye was purely hype & some thought he should be taken much, much later and TJ? snicker. Were not most of us a bit surprised when Mitchell was selected in third? And then most of us went HARUMPH oh yeah he is fast. I say fast. He will beat out Okoye game one. That still has not happened. I say our defensive philosphy is screwy. My focus is for DTs to first stop the run and second to push the pocket or at least tie up more than one opponent sort of like a nose tackle does in a 3-4. The DEs should get the sacks when the QB is forced out by the collapsing pocket or when a DE beats the O for a quick trip to QB land. We now have three very good ends; Mario, Barwin and Smith. Barwin should be back based upon what we know and if you want insurance in draft, cool but mocking one now before we know Barwin's status might be compared to mocking Fairley before he has commited. (wink)
trick or treat
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Old 10-29-2010   #40
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Default Re: Beerlover Mocks "BYE" Week

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trick or treat
That made my day. You are so funny! I really needed that laugh.
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