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Old 10-18-2010   #1
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Default Schuab's Shovel Pass

Thats two games in a row..Something new? I don't think I've seen any prior. Better than a one yard run or throwing it out of bounds..
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Old 10-18-2010   #2
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Default Re: Schuab's Shovel Pass

The last 2 weeks Schaub has started to move better in the pocket. I dunno if it is game footage or coaching, but he's sensing the rush better and getting the ball out. That scramble on the TDs to Dreesen and AJ were phenomenal. Hell Schaub took off and ran for the first time in a while.
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Old 10-18-2010   #3
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Default Re: Schuab's Shovel Pass

Dude is soooo slow. i think we need to order him some rocket rollerskates from Wile E Coyote.
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Old 10-18-2010   #4
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Default Re: Schuab's Shovel Pass

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Originally Posted by hradhak View Post
The last 2 weeks Schaub has started to move better in the pocket. I dunno if it is game footage or coaching, but he's sensing the rush better and getting the ball out. That scramble on the TDs to Dreesen and AJ were phenomenal. Hell Schaub took off and ran for the first time in a while.
I jumped up and down like a five year old getting a real live pokemon on the Dreesen TD.
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Old 10-18-2010   #5
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For the play to really be successful, you classically use a big tight end with the speed, agility and vision to create yards after the catch. That's because the, he is receiving the ball behind the line of scrimmage and the play will only go as far as his yards after catch. Since the QB is usually moving towards the receiver, the defenders are usually also migrating to that side of the field, so a light weight, even though maybe shifty, RB or WR is not as likely to "break through."

We need to be aware that when the shovel pass works, it can work real well. When it doesn't work, it can work reeeeeeeaaaaaaaaal bad. Just ask Eli Manning about a couple of weeks ago.
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Old 10-18-2010   #6
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Default Re: Schuab's Shovel Pass

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Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger View Post
For the play to really be successful, you classically use a big tight end with the speed, agility and vision to create yards after the catch. That's because the, he is receiving the ball behind the line of scrimmage and the play will only go as far as his yards after catch. Since the QB is usually moving towards the receiver, the defenders are usually also migrating to that side of the field, so a light weight, even though maybe shifty, RB or WR is not as likely to "break through."

We need to be aware that when the shovel pass works, it can work real well. When it doesn't work, it can work reeeeeeeaaaaaaaaal bad. Just ask Eli Manning about a couple of weeks ago.
As long as MS knows his left from right, well be good =P
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Old 10-18-2010   #7
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Default Re: Schuab's Shovel Pass

Even though Butler hasn't been terrible, there have been plays where schaub got killed from the backside b/c of him since Brown went out. I think for the bulk of butler's tenure at LT, schaub just didn't trust him like he does brown.

& i've said this on numerous occasions already this season, but i think kubes is trying to force the "smash-mouth-run-the-ball" identity down this team's throat & the reality of this is that we're just not a team built for that. I think if he used the pass to set up the run we'd be alot more potent on offense. & i'm not talking about those little dinks & dunks i'm talking stretching the field passes.
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Old 10-18-2010   #8
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Default Re: Schuab's Shovel Pass

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As long as MS knows his left from right, well be good =P
LOL. You must have watched that game. But against Cincinnatti, Palmer pulled one shovel pass with his right hand then a second with his left. When the shovel pass is used sometimes an oncoming rusher coming from the QB's dominant side, he has to be prepared to improvise in order to complete the play.
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Old 10-18-2010   #9
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Default Re: Schuab's Shovel Pass

His two best plays this season were those two rollout passes. He has moved better in the pocket lately, hopefully that continues. For some reason though he's not good at scrambling to the right, still, which i do find a bit odd.
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Old 10-18-2010   #10
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Default Re: Schuab's Shovel Pass

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Originally Posted by Mr teX View Post
Even though Butler hasn't been terrible, there have been plays where schaub got killed from the backside b/c of him since Brown went out. I think for the bulk of butler's tenure at LT, schaub just didn't trust him like he does brown.

& i've said this on numerous occasions already this season, but i think kubes is trying to force the "smash-mouth-run-the-ball" identity down this team's throat & the reality of this is that we're just not a team built for that. I think if he used the pass to set up the run we'd be alot more potent on offense. & i'm not talking about those little dinks & dunks i'm talking stretching the field passes.
??? What...

If anything Kubiak hasn't forced the issue enough and in our losses (and some of our wins) he's given up on the run too often. Kubiak needs to press the issue even more now that it looks like Ward still has some tread on the tires.


I also don't see how we aren't "built for that" when we are one of the best at doing it. Last time I checked we have the leading rusher in the NFL. If we get pass happy, all we're going to do is get more 3 and outs/stalled drives and hang our horrible "Efense" out to dry.

Not to mention that with the way our offensive line has played in pass protection, if you pass more and run less, Schaub isn't going to make it through the season.
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Old 10-18-2010   #11
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Default Re: Schuab's Shovel Pass

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??? What...

If anything Kubiak hasn't forced the issue enough and in our losses (and some of our wins) he's given up on the run too often. Kubiak needs to press the issue even more now that it looks like Ward still has some tread on the tires.


I also don't see how we aren't "built for that" when we are one of the best at doing it. Last time I checked we have the leading rusher in the NFL. If we get pass happy, all we're going to do is get more 3 and outs/stalled drives and hang our horrible "Efense" out to dry.
One of the best at doing it for the last 8-9 games. I think the point was that this team does not have a history of smash-mouth football and as of yet, they have not built their identity on that style of play. In fact, I think our successful running identity will never be considered smash mouth as much as it will be smart.

Your last statement is curious, considering how prolific Shaub, AJ, OD and company have been in the passing game the last few years. You make it sound like we got Jason Campbell and Joey Galloway out there.
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Old 10-18-2010   #12
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Default Re: Schuab's Shovel Pass

Shovel pass was a staple of the Elway Bronco's. We definately should incorporate it more often.
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Old 10-18-2010   #13
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Default Re: Schuab's Shovel Pass

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Thats two games in a row..Something new? I don't think I've seen any prior. Better than a one yard run or throwing it out of bounds..
Schaub had connected with Slaton on the shovel pass before.
It was near the goal line. I can't remember for sure whether it was a TD or not. It was definitely a very positive outcome though!
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Old 10-18-2010   #14
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Default Re: Schuab's Shovel Pass

Am even rearer (is that a word?) play happened yesterday: the Texans called a draw! I think it resulted in a 16 yard run for Ward in the 4th quarter, second to last drive I think. I swear that's the first one I've seen us call this year, which is funny considering other teams kill us with it. Of course, they kill us with everything else too, so maybe that's not saying much.
But more draws and screens please.
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Old 10-18-2010   #15
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Default Re: Schuab's Shovel Pass

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Originally Posted by hradhak View Post
The last 2 weeks Schaub has started to move better in the pocket. I dunno if it is game footage or coaching, but he's sensing the rush better and getting the ball out. That scramble on the TDs to Dreesen and AJ were phenomenal. Hell Schaub took off and ran for the first time in a while.
This.

For the first few weeks Schaub was a statue in the pocket. Hall from the Skins even talked about how he looked oblivious to the rush and he felt like their rush would be able to cause some big plays for them. Well..he was right and he was wrong...

But yeah...Schaub has done a much better job of buying his receivers some extra time to get open and avoiding some sacks....
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Old 10-18-2010   #16
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Default Re: Schuab's Shovel Pass

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One of the best at doing it for the last 8-9 games. I think the point was that this team does not have a history of smash-mouth football and as of yet.
8 or 9 games IS history in the NFL.......things move and change fast in this league, if you've been the best rushing team in the entire league for 6 games, I think it's safe to say that the rushing game is a strength on your team. Another thing we've never had in our history, a big back with top skills and a veteran backup that's not a total bum.



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In fact, I think our successful running identity will never be considered smash mouth as much as it will be smart.
I agree with this and it's why I'm not a big Myers fan. When we go up against physical tackles we can have problems in short yardage situations occasionally, but Foster has greatly helped us in that area. Since he's stepped on the field since last season he's been successful at the goal line.


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Your last statement is curious, considering how prolific Schaub, AJ, OD and company have been in the passing game the last few years. You make it sound like we got Jason Campbell and Joey Galloway out there.
??? Where did you get that from...
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Old 10-18-2010   #17
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Default Re: Schuab's Shovel Pass

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Originally Posted by Carr Bombed View Post
??? What...

If anything Kubiak hasn't forced the issue enough and in our losses (and some of our wins) he's given up on the run too often. Kubiak needs to press the issue even more now that it looks like Ward still has some tread on the tires.


I also don't see how we aren't "built for that" when we are one of the best at doing it. Last time I checked we have the leading rusher in the NFL. If we get pass happy, all we're going to do is get more 3 and outs/stalled drives and hang our horrible "Efense" out to dry.

Not to mention that with the way our offensive line has played in pass protection, if you pass more and run less, Schaub isn't going to make it through the season.
We're not built for it..we don't have road grader hogs up front, we've got light, nimble O-linemen.

& Let's face it, Foster is the leading rusher in the league b/c he had 1 outstanding game running the ball against a suspect run defense to begin with. You cut that in half & he's about where all the other NFL backs are.

What i'm really saying is, even now with arian running the ball as well as he has, we are not a "run at will" type team b/c those teams can run on anybody. Our strength is passing the ball & i think kubes thinks we can run on anybody which hasn't been the case. Sure, we've run it relatively well in our last 8 games, but we've been a prolific passing team for the last year & a half. Arian has shown that he can be used out of the backfield just as effectively. All i'm saying the pass needs to be used to set up the run instead of the other way around. Nothing's wrong with that, SF did it for years & NO has done it for going on 4 years now.
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Old 10-18-2010   #18
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Default Re: Schuab's Shovel Pass

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We're not built for it..we don't have road grader hogs up front, we've got light, nimble O-linemen.

& Let's face it, Foster is the leading rusher in the league b/c he had 1 outstanding game running the ball against a suspect run defense to begin with. You cut that in half & he's about where all the other NFL backs are.

What i'm really saying is, even now with arian running the ball as well as he has, we are not a "run at will" type team b/c those teams can run on anybody. Our strength is passing the ball & i think kubes thinks we can run on anybody which hasn't been the case. Sure, we've run it relatively well in our last 8 games, but we've been a prolific passing team for the last year & a half. Arian has shown that he can be used out of the backfield just as effectively. All i'm saying the pass needs to be used to set up the run instead of the other way around. Nothing's wrong with that, SF did it for years & NO has done it for going on 4 years now.
Denver never had a road grader either.......yet they were tops in the league in rushing for years. I don't get that explanation. We aren't a power blocking team, but just because we do it differently (zone), that doesn't mean we can't be a top rushing team.

I also don't understand the "if you take away the Colts game" argument. You could say that about any top back, because most of the top backs have a game where they went off in.....it's the reason why their stats are so good.
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Old 10-18-2010   #19
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Default Re: Schuab's Shovel Pass

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We're not built for it..we don't have road grader hogs up front, we've got light, nimble O-linemen.

& Let's face it, Foster is the leading rusher in the league b/c he had 1 outstanding game running the ball against a suspect run defense to begin with. You cut that in half & he's about where all the other NFL backs are.

What i'm really saying is, even now with arian running the ball as well as he has, we are not a "run at will" type team b/c those teams can run on anybody. Our strength is passing the ball & i think kubes thinks we can run on anybody which hasn't been the case. Sure, we've run it relatively well in our last 8 games, but we've been a prolific passing team for the last year & a half. Arian has shown that he can be used out of the backfield just as effectively. All i'm saying the pass needs to be used to set up the run instead of the other way around. Nothing's wrong with that, SF did it for years & NO has done it for going on 4 years now.
Top 3 rushers..

Foster - Colts, Skins, Cowboys, Raiders, Giants, Chiefs
Bradshaw Car, Ind, Ten, Chicago, Hou, Det
AP - NO, Mia, Det, BYE, NYJ, Dal

Bold=Worst 10 rushing defenses.
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Old 10-18-2010   #20
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Default Re: Schuab's Shovel Pass

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8 or 9 games IS history in the NFL.......things move and change fast in this league, if you've been the best rushing team in the entire league for 6 games, I think it's safe to say that the rushing game is a strength on your team. Another thing we've never had in our history, a big back with top skills and a veteran backup that's not a total bum.
Won't disagree that this year, the running game is a strength of our team. Isn't it nice to be able to say "big back" and "skills" in the same sentence when referring to a Texans RB? My point was simply that over previous seasons, this has not been the team's identity, so it's difficult for me to say this is a running team. That connotates run first and pass second. While we are starting to see some regularity to that pattern this year, the rest of the NFL considers the Texans a pass first offense.

Heck, look at Indy all those years with James. If you discount the one injury year he had with them, he averaged over 1400 yards a year for 6 years. Yet, because he was on the same team with one of the most prolific pass combinations the league has ever seen, Indy was considered a passing offense. I see many similarities with the Texans.

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I agree with this and it's why I'm not a big Myers fan. When we go up against physical tackles we can have problems in short yardage situations occasionally, but Foster has greatly helped us in that area. Since he's stepped on the field since last season he's been successful at the goal line.
Yes, Foster has overcome some of that interior ownage with his skills. But Myers does need to go. I am not a huge fan of ZBS-sized lines, but I don't think this offense would be successful in the pass game with a reincarnation of the Hogs, either. Replace Myers with more bulk, and it would solve a few issues.

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??? Where did you get that from...
You just tossed out "pass happy" and "3-and-out" like they were mutually inclusive of each other, implying an ineffective passing game. I understand now that you may have been making a point about staying with the running game for ball control purposes and giving the defense as much time off the field as possible. This defense is regressing so much that we are going to have to employ the Peyton Strategy on every QB we face this year.
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