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Old 03-15-2005   #1
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Default Orlando Pace a Texan? | Day 2

I hear alot of talk about getting 2 first round picks for Pace, but I have to ask everyone, does shouldnt our #1 pick being in the top half, hold more water than lower 1st round picks?

***Note This thread has more replies, and views, in 18 hours, than the Sharper trade had in over a week. Amazing.

Last edited by Blake; 03-15-2005 at 05:45 AM.
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Old 03-15-2005   #2
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the texans arent going to give away 2 first round picks to the rams, its just not gonna happen. nobody is worth that.

id still rather see us address C before LT, but thats why i dont run things
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Old 03-15-2005   #3
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Originally Posted by ccdude730
the texans arent going to give away 2 first round picks to the rams, its just not gonna happen. nobody is worth that.

id still rather see us address C before LT, but thats why i dont run things
I believe you can upgrade the C position in the draft. There are 3-4 center's that I believe would be able to do a better job than Steve. But the LT position, there is only 1 player I think would be better than Wand, and not by much.
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Old 03-15-2005   #4
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well the reason i say that is because if we have a dominating center - and he might come from the draft - but wouldnt that allow him to take a DT 1 on 1 while letting the guard help the LT when matching up on a very good passrusher?

no doubt pace is an upgrade, thats obvious. but why make such a big commitment to a player when he might not completly solve the equation. thats my only beef with these actions.

my idea would have been to get a new center, preferrably from the draft, and continue to work with wand who will deffinatly get better as time goes on.
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Old 03-15-2005   #5
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I see your points. But I have to ask you a question. If the center gets the DT, and the LG, and LT get the DE, who gets the 1-2 linebackers doing a delayed blitz?

Also with run blocking, Pace will not get help with his man. The center will probably shoot through and get a linebacker.

You want a LT who can take on a DE without help. When ever you have to use 2 on 1 at any position, you are weakening the whole team.

Same thing on the other side of the ball. If a CB needs help to contain a WR, that means the rest of your team is playing 9 vs. - 10 football.
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Old 03-15-2005   #6
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well we are getting into what ifs, but hopefully the qb either knows this or a back is ready to throw a block or he buys some time and moves around in the pocket. several scenarious...but again - this is a what if and nobody knows what will happen

we did pretty well i thought with the zone blocking toward the end of the season. looked like the line started to gel and DD was doing good.

i want a LT who can take on a DE without help also - but when you go up against d freeney and a few others, all you can do is double...
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Old 03-15-2005   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny
Our goal was a veteran line with young developing, emerging skill players. With Pace we have what we wanted in Boselli all along. A veteran line with one of the best Tackles in the league to support young, developing skill players.
It's like having a Bruce Matthews in place in order to give Brad Hopkins enough time to develop at his own pace.

Having Orlando Pace will give Seth Wand time to develop.
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Old 03-15-2005   #8
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I'm defintely in the minority on this one, because I think Pace is not worth our first round pick 'plus extras' as the AP news story said. I spend a good chunk of time trolling the NFL pages in all the other NFL cities (I'm a programmer, it's automated), and I've been reading the St. Louis Post Dispatch for 5 years now. The Rams have issues with this guy during every off-season. They have issues with him reporting in training camp. And yes, they HAVE had issues with his durability when you get deep into the season.

Pace has been a fine OT, but he is also one that has been run into the ground, and he is one that wants too much money. The fact that the Rams have been unable to make a deal with his agent for THREE YEARS RUNNING should give you a good idea about how reasonable Pace and/or his agent is. Don't forget, when you apply the Franchise tag in successive years, you pay the average of the top 5 players at the position OR you pay a 20% increase over the previous year's salary, whichever is more favorable to the player. So Pace got two 20% raises in a row. That had to have hurt the Rams capwise, and I'm sure they'd have given anything to change the siging to a long-term deal so as to forgo the cap hit, but they were unable to.

Pace's pay demands are not going to change just because he came to Houston. He has consistently demonstrated a 'me first' attitude that all of you slam other players for. He was 'me first' on a team when it was a perennial Super Bowl contender; how do you think he is going to react when he lands on a team that just hopes to make the playoffs before his knees go out? Casserly's MO for the Texans has been to stay away from this kind of selfish player.

No thanks. Pass on Pace. It ain't worth it. Draft an OT with 10+ years left in him, rather than get a franchise OT with maybe 3-4 years left and a bank account he wants to fill.

Glen
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Old 03-15-2005   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gcolby
No thanks. Pass on Pace. It ain't worth it. Draft an OT with 10+ years left in him, rather than get a franchise OT with maybe 3-4 years left and a bank account he wants to fill. Glen
I agree. To be honest, I hope the deal falls through.
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Old 03-15-2005   #10
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You guys are DEFINITELY in the minority. And thats for a reason. Pace would immediately improve ALL facets of our offense. Yes he costs money, yes he isnt 24.... but again, he is an immediate impact.... and a known result.

What if we kept our first rounder and drafted a bust? What if Wand NEVER materializes? There are a bunch of what ifs in the original scenario I am willing to risk to take a for sure thing....not only a for sure thing... but a frickin ALL PRO left tackle.

As long as we dont give up anything more than a 1st... and a player or maybe a 3rd... then its definitely worth it.
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Old 03-15-2005   #11
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if you want to include what ifs dont forget "what if he gets the injury bug and doesnt play up to his all pro potential" pace would cut down the sacks but he would not eliminate them. the rams gave up plenty of sacks last season

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I agree. To be honest, I hope the deal falls through.
me too
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Old 03-15-2005   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gcolby
I'm defintely in the minority on this one, because I think Pace is not worth our first round pick 'plus extras' as the AP news story said. I spend a good chunk of time trolling the NFL pages in all the other NFL cities (I'm a programmer, it's automated), and I've been reading the St. Louis Post Dispatch for 5 years now. The Rams have issues with this guy during every off-season. They have issues with him reporting in training camp. And yes, they HAVE had issues with his durability when you get deep into the season.

Pace has been a fine OT, but he is also one that has been run into the ground, and he is one that wants too much money. The fact that the Rams have been unable to make a deal with his agent for THREE YEARS RUNNING should give you a good idea about how reasonable Pace and/or his agent is. Don't forget, when you apply the Franchise tag in successive years, you pay the average of the top 5 players at the position OR you pay a 20% increase over the previous year's salary, whichever is more favorable to the player. So Pace got two 20% raises in a row. That had to have hurt the Rams capwise, and I'm sure they'd have given anything to change the siging to a long-term deal so as to forgo the cap hit, but they were unable to.

Pace's pay demands are not going to change just because he came to Houston. He has consistently demonstrated a 'me first' attitude that all of you slam other players for. He was 'me first' on a team when it was a perennial Super Bowl contender; how do you think he is going to react when he lands on a team that just hopes to make the playoffs before his knees go out? Casserly's MO for the Texans has been to stay away from this kind of selfish player.

No thanks. Pass on Pace. It ain't worth it. Draft an OT with 10+ years left in him, rather than get a franchise OT with maybe 3-4 years left and a bank account he wants to fill.

Glen
AGREED


the cap hit alone would stunt the Texans growth for years, how much $$$$ would the Texans then have tied up in the offensive line alone & just when Wand is ready to take the reigns he'll also command big $$$$ & thats assuming the Texans can absorb the cap hit now in the short term. no thanks I'd rather draft & develop our own people.
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Old 03-15-2005   #13
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Two years ago at this time, I was really excited at the talk of Pace coming to the Texans. This time around, I have my reservations about signing him. Too many questions about him .. his attitude and play ethics... talk about a BIG head .. in more ways than one.
Can't say I didn't enjoy watching him during his days at Ohio State though. He's been a fun player to watch! ..........
Quote:
The award winner: Pace was among the most decorated players of all-time as the first sophomore to ever win the Lombardi Award and the first two-time winner taking the award again as a junior. In that junior season, Pace won the Outland Trophy and finished fourth in the Heisman Trophy voting behind Danny Wuerffel, Troy Davis and Jake Plummer.
http://www.collegefootballnews.com/T...lando_Pace.htm
But I worry about his baggage at this point, playing at the end of his career. Does he have enough left to give, and at what price to the future of the team?
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Old 03-15-2005   #14
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I'm not real hot on Pace either. Yes he'd have an immediate impact, but I worry about the long term consequences. I think we should shore up the interior of the line, and we can do that for less money.

Although the NBA isn't a direct comparison, I'm a big fan of the Spurs, and their long term approach (with a lucky draft lottery) has paid off. It was tough in the beginning and middle years though.
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Old 03-15-2005   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gcolby
I'm defintely in the minority on this one, because I think Pace is not worth our first round pick 'plus extras' as the AP news story said. Glen
Hey Gcolby, you make a lot of good points and I agree with many of them. But you know how Cass and Capers have been telling us that Wand was showing development and was gonna get it done this year - I think what we
have here is a lot of rationalizing and wishful thinking on the part of the Texans about Wand and when the opportunity came along to acquire the
best perceived solution since Bosseli to protect Carr's blindside and just
in general upgrade the whole offense with a "second chance" to get a
Bosseli - they seized the opportunity.
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Old 03-15-2005   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hulk75
He could play at a Hall of Fame level for another 7 years. Plus he is better than anyone we get w/13pick. Why are some people so objective toward a 5 time Pro-Bowler and our 1st Hall of Famer(when he comes here).
What's wrong with being objective? I think you might want to choose a different word.
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Old 03-15-2005   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hulk75
He could play at a Hall of Fame level for another 7 years. Plus he is better than anyone we get w/13pick. Why are some people so objective toward a 5 time Pro-Bowler and our 1st Hall of Famer(when he comes here).
I would have to agree. Who's out there at the 13th pick and a pic in the 3rd round that will be a pro bowler this year? This year is a good draft on corners and wide receivers but everything else is so so. People are still trying to figure out who the the top 5 picks will be, those are changing daily. Plus, we can't forget 13th pick is going to hit us for some money as well as signing bonus or holding out etc.
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Old 03-15-2005   #18
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I'd hate to see the Texans give up too much of their future to get Pace, but if they can get him for no more than one 1st round choice and some lower picks I don't think you can turn it down. Pace will improve the blocking in a domino like effect. This will give Carr a few extra seconds to make the throw he needs to make. It will allow the Texans to use the TE in pass routes more often. This can only help.

It wasn't Pace not reporting for camp that was the problem. He couldn't without a contract. The Rams wouldn't give him the long term he wanted. His agent was one of the Poston brothers. By far the worst thing to happen to NFL players. 95% (a number I am using only for emphasis, but most of them do involve the Postons) of contract disputes/holdouts are their clients. Pace has fired them and has a new agent. This will make dealings much better.
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Old 03-15-2005   #19
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Originally Posted by Rovator
Can they really get 2 first rounders for him? TO and Corey Dillon were traded for 2nd rounders, I can't see Pace being worth that much more. I'd definantly give up a 1st and 3rd though since a player drafted at 13 probably has a 5% chance of being as good as Pace is.
Terrell Owens was viewed by many as a cancer, and Corey Dillon was coming off a sub-par year. IMO, they do not compare with Pace, who is ranked by some pubs as a TOP 10 Player. (Not just Top 10 O-Linemen, Top 10 Period.)

Last edited by Team-Sport; 03-15-2005 at 08:56 AM.
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Old 03-15-2005   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccdude730
if you want to include what ifs dont forget "what if he gets the injury bug and doesnt play up to his all pro potential" pace would cut down the sacks but he would not eliminate them. the rams gave up plenty of sacks last season


But you can also equate those HEALTH what ifs to a draft pick, etc as well. (see Joppru).

But you cant equate thier FOR SURE play as you can in Pace. And ALL PRO play at that.
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