Go Back   Houston Texans Message Board & Forum - TexansTalk.com > The Great Fans of the Houston Texans > Texans Talk
Home Forums Register FAQDonate Automatic Monthly Contribution Members List Mark Forums Read


Texans Talk Football talk only please. Keep it to the game, the players, the coaches and management.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-13-2010   #1
otisbean
All Pro
 
otisbean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 573
Rep Power: 5252 otisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Tainted supplements

I posted this on another site but wanted it to be posted here as well:

I spoke with a Dr. friend of mine in CA, he is familiar with the Cushing situation as he is a Texan fan. First, HCG will stimulate Leuteinizing Hormone in the body. It will not help produce extra testosterone, ie it will not boost a person's testosterone levels past the normal range as steroids will. It can help raise a persons level with in the normal range, meaning that if the normal range is 200 on the low side and 900 in the high side it could help you go from 200 towards 900, but it won't help you get out of the range of normal as roids will. He said alot of roid users don't even take HCG anymore, as Clomed is what most users will use to boost their natural testosterone production after doing a cycle.

I asked him, could he have gotten it from a "natural" testosterone supplement like the 100s that are available at GNCs ect... he said absolutely. He suspected this was the likely culprit as the levels were so low. He believes that it is very difficult to successfully take steroids in the NFL as they have an ULTRA strict policy. He said most of the time when guys get busted for diuretics their actually taking them to make weight, not to mask roids.

Is the case strong that Cushing took roids, I don't think so. If you don't think supplements can be tainted check this out:

http://www.physorg.com/news176664344.html

He was tested all year, he had one negative test with a very slightly elevated level of a drug that shouldn't even be considered in the same category as the real deal, in all honesty.

This brings me to a final point, is it cheating if a guy takes a supplement to boost his testosterone to a higher level so long that the level is within the normal range? Different people have different levels occurring in their body's naturally, some are in the low range 200-300 and some are naturally up near 900. What's wrong with a guy bumping his level up from 300 to 800 with a supplement?

BTW, here is more info on tainted supplements:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/sp...dopingweb.html

This one is about an OTC supplement that caused a positive steroid test

http://www.precisionnutrition.com/tainted-supplements

This one is from Dr. John Berardi's website regarding the surprising number of tainted supplements.
otisbean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2010   #2
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
 
CloakNNNdagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 16,055
Rep Power: 216190 CloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Tainted supplements

Your Dr. friend is correct about the 1st paragraph statments, as I have posted similarly in the past with the qualification the testosterone levels being able to be bumped to somewhat above the high levels of normal in some cases.........but not very useful by itself in performance enhancement.

No one will argue that many supplements can be "adulterated" with "unknown additional substances."

BUT, as many fans do not realize, that is why the NFL/NFLPA has agreed to follow the NSF CERTIFICATION PROCESS.

Quote:
At the request of the National Football League (NFL) and the National Football League Players Association (NFLPA), NSF has developed stringent criteria for product certification under the NFL/NFLPA Supplement Certification Program. In addition to requiring NSF Certification to dietary supplements or functional foods criteria, the program requires each product lot to undergo analytical testing to ensure the absence of any substances banned by the NFL/NFLPA.

In addition to the strict NSF Dietary Supplements and Functional Foods Program requirements, products certified under the Official NFL/NFLPA Supplement Certification Program must meet the following stringent criteria:

Formula Evaluation - NSF provides confidential review of product formulations to screen for potential banned substances and determine testing requirements.

Good Manufacturing Practices - Production facilities and packaging facilities are inspected to insure controls are in place to avoid the introduction of, or cross contamination with, banned substances.

Clinical Testing for Metabolites - At the client's request, NSF will oversee clinical testing to determine if any ingredients metabolize into prohibited substances that may result in disqualification from competition.

Chain-of-Custody Procedures - Each product lot tested for banned substances must be collected by an NSF auditor. All products pending testing are held under locked quarantine until NSF notifies the manufacturer of successful test results.


The Official NFL/NFLPA Supplement Certification Program:

Offers NFL players product options so they will not unknowingly consume banned substances via their sports nutritional products.

Reduces the likelihood of NFL Players testing positive for banned substances consumed unintentionally.

Ensures certified dietary supplements and functional foods contain the identity and quantity of ingredients listed on the product label and are free of any undeclared contaminants or prohibited ingredients.

Provides a mechanism for third-party evaluation for the metabolites of dietary supplements formulations.
In essence, ALL NFL teams have open access to laboratories ( and make them available to players and coaches) that will independently evaluate any given supplement for content and purity by sophisticated accurate methods such as liquid chromatography.

The problem is, if the player is not overtly gaming the system, that some players choose to claim ignorance of what they want to view as "benign" over-the-counter supplements. What further compounds the problem with over-the-counter supplements is that, to begin with, they many times have LABELED multiple ingredients.

In summary, if players stick to the rules and processes available to them, it is virtually impossible for them to travel down the wrong road of positive testing.
CloakNNNdagger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2010   #3
otisbean
All Pro
 
otisbean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 573
Rep Power: 5252 otisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Tainted supplements

Quote:
Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger View Post
Your Dr. friend is correct about the 1st paragraph statments, as I have posted similarly in the past with the qualification the testosterone levels being able to be bumped to somewhat above the high levels of normal in some cases.........but not very useful by itself in performance enhancement.

No one will argue that many supplements can be "adulterated" with "unknown additional substances."

BUT, as many fans do not realize, that is why the NFL/NFLPA has agreed to follow the NSF CERTIFICATION PROCESS.

In essence, ALL NFL teams have open access to laboratories ( and make them available to players and coaches) that will independently evaluate any given supplement for content and purity by sophisticated accurate methods such as liquid chromatography.

The problem is, if the player is not overtly gaming the system, that some players choose to claim ignorance of what they want to view as "benign" over-the-counter supplements. What further compounds the problem with over-the-counter supplements is that, to begin with, they many times have LABELED multiple ingredients.

In summary, if players stick to the rules and processes available to them, it is virtually impossible for them to travel down the wrong road of positive testing.
I know about the NSF, in fact it's discussed in one of the articles I posted. The article also has a list of NSF certified supplements. There isn't alot of variety on the list, it seems to be mostly meal replacements and protein powders. I'm guessing that athletes are choosing to use different supplements and perhaps it's causing problems.

Im not defending that choice, Im not saying it's right or wrong, but I can understand it. WHen there are millions of dollars on the line, and physical performance plays a major role in obtaining said money, I can understand why guys might be looking for any edge possible. If an OTC supplement can boost performance and be legally to obtained, I can completely understand why someone would use it. Heck the only supplement I use thats on that list is muscle milk. There are supplements I take now that I would continue to use if I were to play in the NFL because for me they work. Their not on NSF list though.

My main problem with the Cushing issue is that many fans and media goons were so quick to assume he used steroids. My purpose was to get people to understand there are other, legitimate ways that this could have happened. I'm not saying that this IS what happened, just that its possible.

According to my physician friend he feels that a tainted supplement could easily be the cause. He tested positive only one time with a very low level. He said it's possible that he was taking HCG to try to boost his own testosterone output, but he doubted that based on the really low levels and the fact that he only tested positive once.
otisbean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2010   #4
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
 
CloakNNNdagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 16,055
Rep Power: 216190 CloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Tainted supplements

Quote:
Originally Posted by otisbean View Post
I know about the NSF, in fact it's discussed in one of the articles I posted. The article also has a list of NSF certified supplements. There isn't alot of variety on the list, it seems to be mostly meal replacements and protein powders. I'm guessing that athletes are choosing to use different supplements and perhaps it's causing problems.

Im not defending that choice, Im not saying it's right or wrong, but I can understand it. WHen there are millions of dollars on the line, and physical performance plays a major role in obtaining said money, I can understand why guys might be looking for any edge possible. If an OTC supplement can boost performance and be legally to obtained, I can completely understand why someone would use it. Heck the only supplement I use thats on that list is muscle milk. There are supplements I take now that I would continue to use if I were to play in the NFL because for me they work. Their not on NSF list though.

My main problem with the Cushing issue is that many fans and media goons were so quick to assume he used steroids. My purpose was to get people to understand there are other, legitimate ways that this could have happened. I'm not saying that this IS what happened, just that its possible.

According to my physician friend he feels that a tainted supplement could easily be the cause. He tested positive only one time with a very low level. He said it's possible that he was taking HCG to try to boost his own testosterone output, but he doubted that based on the really low levels and the fact that he only tested positive once.
It appears that your physician friend and you do not understand that any coach or player may submit to their team ANY supplement not on the NSF certified list to independent testing for content and purity BEFORE they begin taking it.

Secondly, the reportedly "low" levels (x 2) would have BOTH BEEN ABOVE THE EXPECTED LEVELS IN MALES, or they would have not have been reported as "positive." "Positive" in such testing is NOT synonymous with "presence."

As I have explained before, there is typically a generous buffer assigned to a test before a sample falls out as "positive." This is to avoid the unfair "gotcha factor" based on borderline results. The term "LOW" has been thrown around too freely by those who know better. Their motive must remain suspect.
CloakNNNdagger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2010   #5
HJam72
Hall of Fame
 
HJam72's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Over here.
Age: 41
Posts: 11,526
Rep Power: 73110 HJam72 is a quality contributor and well respectedHJam72 is a quality contributor and well respectedHJam72 is a quality contributor and well respectedHJam72 is a quality contributor and well respectedHJam72 is a quality contributor and well respectedHJam72 is a quality contributor and well respectedHJam72 is a quality contributor and well respectedHJam72 is a quality contributor and well respectedHJam72 is a quality contributor and well respectedHJam72 is a quality contributor and well respectedHJam72 is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Tainted supplements

Maybe he didn't want to admit that he was pregnant.
__________________

HJam72 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2010   #6
infantrycak
Lead Moderator
 
infantrycak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Age: 47
Posts: 47,365
Rep Power: 356973 infantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Tainted supplements

Quote:
Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger View Post
Secondly, the reportedly "low" levels (x 2) would have BOTH BEEN ABOVE THE EXPECTED LEVELS IN MALES, or they would have not have been reported as "positive." "Positive" in such testing is NOT synonymous with "presence."

As I have explained before, there is typically a generous buffer assigned to a test before a sample falls out as "positive." This is to avoid the unfair "gotcha factor" based on borderline results. The term "LOW" has been thrown around too freely by those who know better. Their motive must remain suspect.
Did I miss it somewhere and you found out the NFL number is in fact 2 x some norm? - and if so, what is the norm?
__________________
The Art of War
infantrycak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2010   #7
BullNation4Life
Hall of Fame
 
BullNation4Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Cypress, Tx
Section: Living Room 77429
Posts: 3,205
Rep Power: 74660 BullNation4Life is a quality contributor and well respectedBullNation4Life is a quality contributor and well respectedBullNation4Life is a quality contributor and well respectedBullNation4Life is a quality contributor and well respectedBullNation4Life is a quality contributor and well respectedBullNation4Life is a quality contributor and well respectedBullNation4Life is a quality contributor and well respectedBullNation4Life is a quality contributor and well respectedBullNation4Life is a quality contributor and well respectedBullNation4Life is a quality contributor and well respectedBullNation4Life is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Tainted supplements

Quote:
Originally Posted by HJam72 View Post
Maybe he didn't want to admit that he was pregnant.


IT'S NOT A TUUUMA, IT'S A BOY!
__________________


Ohhh, uh oh, it's Crapatrick!....
BullNation4Life is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored links
Old 05-14-2010   #8
Double Barrel
Modified Simian
 
Double Barrel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Onward, Upward, and back into the Trees
Section: Gridiron, Tx
Age: 48
Posts: 31,112
Rep Power: 346173 Double Barrel is a quality contributor and well respectedDouble Barrel is a quality contributor and well respectedDouble Barrel is a quality contributor and well respectedDouble Barrel is a quality contributor and well respectedDouble Barrel is a quality contributor and well respectedDouble Barrel is a quality contributor and well respectedDouble Barrel is a quality contributor and well respectedDouble Barrel is a quality contributor and well respectedDouble Barrel is a quality contributor and well respectedDouble Barrel is a quality contributor and well respectedDouble Barrel is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Tainted supplements

Quote:
Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger View Post
It appears that your physician friend and you do not understand that any coach or player may submit to their team ANY supplement not on the NSF certified list to independent testing for content and purity BEFORE they begin taking it.

Secondly, the reportedly "low" levels (x 2) would have BOTH BEEN ABOVE THE EXPECTED LEVELS IN MALES, or they would have not have been reported as "positive." "Positive" in such testing is NOT synonymous with "presence."

As I have explained before, there is typically a generous buffer assigned to a test before a sample falls out as "positive." This is to avoid the unfair "gotcha factor" based on borderline results. The term "LOW" has been thrown around too freely by those who know better. Their motive must remain suspect.
I was curious about the "low" comments, as well.

And what was strange to me is that an elite athlete, with millions of dollars and a pro career on the line, one who is known to be in tune with every aspect of his health and fitness, appeared to be so clueless about this substance and the different aspects of it. This doesn't even begin to touch on the tumor remarks.

If I - just a football fan and regular dude - have learned so much about the substance just from reading your informed posts the past few days, I find it really weird that Cush has had this situation for over 8 months and still seems so uneducated about it. And he does not come across as a so-called "dumb jock" and appears to be intelligent, so his press conference seemed at odds with who he is known to be.

I have no desire to witch hunt the guy. I'm just trying to be more educated on the matter so when I talk to other people, especially those with biased assumptions, I can reply with facts and knowledge instead of emotion-based speculation.
__________________
"Football is only a diversion." ~ HOUSTON TEXANS
Double Barrel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2010   #9
Joe Texan
Inducted 04
 
Joe Texan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Spring
Section: 116 row a seat 20
Age: 51
Posts: 9,787
Rep Power: 4091 Joe Texan is a quality contributor and well respectedJoe Texan is a quality contributor and well respectedJoe Texan is a quality contributor and well respectedJoe Texan is a quality contributor and well respectedJoe Texan is a quality contributor and well respectedJoe Texan is a quality contributor and well respectedJoe Texan is a quality contributor and well respectedJoe Texan is a quality contributor and well respectedJoe Texan is a quality contributor and well respectedJoe Texan is a quality contributor and well respectedJoe Texan is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Tainted supplements

I feel real good about what the first Dr said. He got hold of something bad, took it found out is was bad quit taking it got busted and is serving his punishment

CASE CLOSED
__________________
PRAYERS TO THE FALLEN AT FT. HOOD
Joe Texan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2010   #10
gtexan02
Working?
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Boston
Age: 31
Posts: 15,719
Rep Power: 66827 gtexan02 is a quality contributor and well respectedgtexan02 is a quality contributor and well respectedgtexan02 is a quality contributor and well respectedgtexan02 is a quality contributor and well respectedgtexan02 is a quality contributor and well respectedgtexan02 is a quality contributor and well respectedgtexan02 is a quality contributor and well respectedgtexan02 is a quality contributor and well respectedgtexan02 is a quality contributor and well respectedgtexan02 is a quality contributor and well respectedgtexan02 is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Tainted supplements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Texan View Post
I feel real good about what the first Dr said. He got hold of something bad, took it found out is was bad quit taking it got busted and is serving his punishment

CASE CLOSED
Who said that?

Also, if this is true, then Cushing is an outright liar. he said he had no idea how it got in his body, and is concerned for his health. Are yuo saying Cushing is a liar?
__________________
Drinking the kool aid
gtexan02 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2010   #11
devo-x
Veteran
 
devo-x's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 384
Rep Power: 269 devo-x is a quality contributor and well respecteddevo-x is a quality contributor and well respecteddevo-x is a quality contributor and well respecteddevo-x is a quality contributor and well respecteddevo-x is a quality contributor and well respecteddevo-x is a quality contributor and well respecteddevo-x is a quality contributor and well respecteddevo-x is a quality contributor and well respecteddevo-x is a quality contributor and well respecteddevo-x is a quality contributor and well respecteddevo-x is a quality contributor and well respected
Send a message via Yahoo to devo-x
Default Re: Tainted supplements

I think it was an unintended side effect of one of the many supplements he takes after reading about the Texans official who supposedly 'warned' Cushing and our former Strength and Conditioning Coach about a supplement that could result (and did) result in one positive test

It's the most logical conclusion at this point
__________________
Adopt-A-Texan 2014: DeAndre Hopkins
Adopt-A-Texan 2012: Arian Foster & Bryan Braman
Adopt-A-Texan 2010: Kareem Jackson and Troy Nolan
Adopt-A-Texan 2009: Kevin Walter and Owen Daniels
devo-x is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2010   #12
otisbean
All Pro
 
otisbean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 573
Rep Power: 5252 otisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Tainted supplements

Quote:
Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger View Post
It appears that your physician friend and you do not understand that any coach or player may submit to their team ANY supplement not on the NSF certified list to independent testing for content and purity BEFORE they begin taking it.

Secondly, the reportedly "low" levels (x 2) would have BOTH BEEN ABOVE THE EXPECTED LEVELS IN MALES, or they would have not have been reported as "positive." "Positive" in such testing is NOT synonymous with "presence."

As I have explained before, there is typically a generous buffer assigned to a test before a sample falls out as "positive." This is to avoid the unfair "gotcha factor" based on borderline results. The term "LOW" has been thrown around too freely by those who know better. Their motive must remain suspect.
Just so I'm clear with what you are saying, if 47 of the Texan players show up with 2 supplements each, the Texans will run 94 different lab tests on said supplements? If so that's pretty impressive

To be perfectly clear as to what my friend said, he said he would be surprised in he was taking HCG as he didn't feel it would do anything for him that he couldn't get from an OTC testosterone supplement, IE why take some thing on the banned substance list when they are other supplements on the market that do a really good job with helping boost test level. Thats why he thought it might be a tainted supplement. MY point in listing the articles was to show that this absolutely happens (tainted supplements), and to present an alternative theory of the crime so to speak. As I said in the original post, this was posted on another thread in response to all the he has to be doing steroids posts. My friend also said that the NFL steroid testing is no joke, and he felt that the number of steroid users in the NFL was actually pretty low.

My posting of his HCG levels was simply what was being reported in the media at that time of the original post. I find it interesting and a bit peculiar that in his appeal hearing the NFL had 2 toxicology experts and 1 said there was no way HCG could occur naturally while the 2nd said that it was possible and he was suspended. I would think they would want a consensus from their experts.
otisbean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2010   #13
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
 
CloakNNNdagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 16,055
Rep Power: 216190 CloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Tainted supplements

Quote:
Originally Posted by otisbean View Post
Just so I'm clear with what you are saying, if 47 of the Texan players show up with 2 supplements each, the Texans will run 94 different lab tests on said supplements? If so that's pretty impressive
This is not how the process plays out. For example, just like I as a physician who chooses to maintain a membership with the entity Consumer Lab, I am able to request the independent content and purity data on specific supplements. Their database accumulated over the years is substantial. It does not obviously, however, include every manufacturer or every supplement known to man. If they do not have data on a certain supplement, then I may submit a sample of the supplement for independent testing at my expense (which is not nominal).

With the NFL, teams have this similar type of investigatory options. A team is not going to test every off brand or unknown substance brought in by their player when there are known substitutes with confirmed status. There needs to be some sanity to the process. There will be times that the player will be told “No.” And in those cases they will be aware and also usually reminded that there is no guarantee they will not test “positive” for some banned substance if they choose to proceed on their own with its use. Then, they’re on their own if they choose to “gamble.” If they just can’t live without their substance, and data is not available and testing by the team is felt to not to be reasonable, the player can always have his supplement tested at his expense by the certified lab.

Bottom line, this is why it is made very clear within THE NFL POLICIES to the player (by signed agreement) that the player, and the player alone is ultimately responsible for what goes into his body.
CloakNNNdagger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2010   #14
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
 
The Pencil Neck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Dallas, TX
Age: 52
Posts: 18,393
Rep Power: 279523 The Pencil Neck is a quality contributor and well respectedThe Pencil Neck is a quality contributor and well respectedThe Pencil Neck is a quality contributor and well respectedThe Pencil Neck is a quality contributor and well respectedThe Pencil Neck is a quality contributor and well respectedThe Pencil Neck is a quality contributor and well respectedThe Pencil Neck is a quality contributor and well respectedThe Pencil Neck is a quality contributor and well respectedThe Pencil Neck is a quality contributor and well respectedThe Pencil Neck is a quality contributor and well respectedThe Pencil Neck is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Tainted supplements

Quote:
Originally Posted by otisbean View Post
Just so I'm clear with what you are saying, if 47 of the Texan players show up with 2 supplements each, the Texans will run 94 different lab tests on said supplements? If so that's pretty impressive

To be perfectly clear as to what my friend said, he said he would be surprised in he was taking HCG as he didn't feel it would do anything for him that he couldn't get from an OTC testosterone supplement, IE why take some thing on the banned substance list when they are other supplements on the market that do a really good job with helping boost test level. Thats why he thought it might be a tainted supplement. MY point in listing the articles was to show that this absolutely happens (tainted supplements), and to present an alternative theory of the crime so to speak. As I said in the original post, this was posted on another thread in response to all the he has to be doing steroids posts. My friend also said that the NFL steroid testing is no joke, and he felt that the number of steroid users in the NFL was actually pretty low.
THe OTC testosterone supplements are on the banned list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by otisbean View Post
My posting of his HCG levels was simply what was being reported in the media at that time of the original post. I find it interesting and a bit peculiar that in his appeal hearing the NFL had 2 toxicology experts and 1 said there was no way HCG could occur naturally while the 2nd said that it was possible and he was suspended. I would think they would want a consensus from their experts.
From what I've heard, the NFL had 2 experts and Cush had 1. Obviously Cush's expert presented evidence for how Cush had tested positive without having taken anything. On the NFL's side, one expert disagreed with Cush's expert while the other agreed. And upon hearing that, Cush and his lawyer thought they were going to be exonerated.
The Pencil Neck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2010   #15
otisbean
All Pro
 
otisbean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 573
Rep Power: 5252 otisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Tainted supplements

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
THe OTC testosterone supplements are on the banned list.



From what I've heard, the NFL had 2 experts and Cush had 1. Obviously Cush's expert presented evidence for how Cush had tested positive without having taken anything. On the NFL's side, one expert disagreed with Cush's expert while the other agreed. And upon hearing that, Cush and his lawyer thought they were going to be exonerated.
To be clear my friend was saying he wouldn't take HCG as there are better OTC supplements, he was saying he would take them, just that there were better ones available. This brings an interesting question, I wonder why it's illegal to boost your test levels with legal substances when the normal range is fairly wide. I can see it being illegal to have test levels above normal, but what's wrong with going from the 200s to 800s. I find it peculiar.

I thought McClains article said the NfL had 2 of their own experts and they disagreed, but I may have misread the article.

BTW, i have an OTC test supplement (I don't really take it though, I buy crap and never use most of it) and none of the ingredients are on the 07 banned substance list (which was the only one I could find). The list had specific compounds, it didn't specifically say OTC test supplements. It did have the ambiguous "related compounds" though. I don't know if that means related to the specific compounds or what.

Here's the list: http://www.scribd.com/doc/14066744/N...ned-Substances

Last edited by otisbean; 05-15-2010 at 07:47 PM.
otisbean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2010   #16
JB
Old Curmudgeon
 
JB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Willis
Age: 58
Posts: 22,825
Rep Power: 55787 JB is a quality contributor and well respectedJB is a quality contributor and well respectedJB is a quality contributor and well respectedJB is a quality contributor and well respectedJB is a quality contributor and well respectedJB is a quality contributor and well respectedJB is a quality contributor and well respectedJB is a quality contributor and well respectedJB is a quality contributor and well respectedJB is a quality contributor and well respectedJB is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Tainted supplements

Quote:
Originally Posted by otisbean View Post
To be clear my friend was saying he wouldn't take HCG as there are better OTC supplements, he was saying he would take them, just that there were better ones available. This brings an interesting question, I wonder why it's illegal to boost your test levels with legal substances when the normal range is fairly wide. I can see it being illegal to have test levels above normal, but what's wrong with going from the 200s to 800s. I find it peculiar.

I thoght McClains article said the NfL had 2 experts and they disagreed, but I may have misread the article.
Same thing PN is saying
__________________
Thanks to False Start for the sig
JB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2010   #17
otisbean
All Pro
 
otisbean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 573
Rep Power: 5252 otisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respectedotisbean is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Tainted supplements

Quote:
Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger View Post
This is not how the process plays out. For example, just like I as a physician who chooses to maintain a membership with the entity Consumer Lab, I am able to request the independent content and purity data on specific supplements. Their database accumulated over the years is substantial. It does not obviously, however, include every manufacturer or every supplement known to man. If they do not have data on a certain supplement, then I may submit a sample of the supplement for independent testing at my expense (which is not nominal).

With the NFL, teams have this similar type of investigatory options. A team is not going to test every off brand or unknown substance brought in by their player when there are known substitutes with confirmed status. There needs to be some sanity to the process. There will be times that the player will be told “No.” And in those cases they will be aware and also usually reminded that there is no guarantee they will not test “positive” for some banned substance if they choose to proceed on their own with its use. Then, they’re on their own if they choose to “gamble.” If they just can’t live without their substance, and data is not available and testing by the team is felt to not to be reasonable, the player can always have his supplement tested at his expense by the certified lab.

Bottom line, this is why it is made very clear within THE NFL POLICIES to the player (by signed agreement) that the player, and the player alone is ultimately responsible for what goes into his body.
Now, the following is purely for discussion purposes:

Do you remember when a group of people had heart attacks that were attributed to Ephedra? 20-20 did a supplement expose on different supplements that contained ephedra. One brand, which was very reputable at the time, had 2 separate bottles of the same product tested. One bottle had 1/2 the amount listed on the label while bottle 2 had twice the listed amount in the bottle. I bring this up because I'm not sure that creating a list of OK supplements would be all that effective given this example. If a lab such as consumer lab tested supplement X from company Y once and the supplement tested OK, how do we know that another bottle wouldn't contain a bad ingredient or improper levels. I don't have the answer to this, I guess the thing to do is to not take anything. As a strength coach, I would think professional athletes would benefit more from supplements, given their workload, than the average Joe that eats fast food 3 times a day

It seems to me that the NFL would be better off looking for abnormally high levels of hormones ect... vs looking for specific compounds. For example, I can go buy DHEA at my pharmacy or supplement store but its on the banned substance list. Previously I mentioned that people have varying levels of test present in their system. If I remember correctly the range is pretty broad, if your a physician then you may have the exact numbers of more info, I see nothing wrong with elevating your levels to the high side of the normal range. I see that as leveling the playing field vs cheating. To me, cheating is more like going to from normal to twice the normal amount, or something to that effect.

Thanks for your input.
otisbean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2010   #18
Rey
Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 14,475
Rep Power: 0 Rey is a quality contributor and well respectedRey is a quality contributor and well respectedRey is a quality contributor and well respectedRey is a quality contributor and well respectedRey is a quality contributor and well respectedRey is a quality contributor and well respectedRey is a quality contributor and well respectedRey is a quality contributor and well respectedRey is a quality contributor and well respectedRey is a quality contributor and well respectedRey is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Tainted supplements

If Cushing was going to cheat, why not just take HGH?

Last edited by Rey; 05-15-2010 at 09:39 PM.
Rey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2010   #19
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
 
CloakNNNdagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 16,055
Rep Power: 216190 CloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Tainted supplements

Quote:
Originally Posted by otisbean View Post
Now, the following is purely for discussion purposes:

Do you remember when a group of people had heart attacks that were attributed to Ephedra? 20-20 did a supplement expose on different supplements that contained ephedra. One brand, which was very reputable at the time, had 2 separate bottles of the same product tested. One bottle had 1/2 the amount listed on the label while bottle 2 had twice the listed amount in the bottle. I bring this up because I'm not sure that creating a list of OK supplements would be all that effective given this example. If a lab such as consumer lab tested supplement X from company Y once and the supplement tested OK, how do we know that another bottle wouldn't contain a bad ingredient or improper levels. I don't have the answer to this, I guess the thing to do is to not take anything. As a strength coach, I would think professional athletes would benefit more from supplements, given their workload, than the average Joe that eats fast food 3 times a day

It seems to me that the NFL would be better off looking for abnormally high levels of hormones ect... vs looking for specific compounds. For example, I can go buy DHEA at my pharmacy or supplement store but its on the banned substance list. Previously I mentioned that people have varying levels of test present in their system. If I remember correctly the range is pretty broad, if your a physician then you may have the exact numbers of more info, I see nothing wrong with elevating your levels to the high side of the normal range. I see that as leveling the playing field vs cheating. To me, cheating is more like going to from normal to twice the normal amount, or something to that effect.
Thanks for your input.
Otisbean,

That's exactly what Consumer Lab does in its testing............it will test for consistency of amount per unit per bottle and amount per unit in multiple samples of bottles from different lot numbers (batches) before putting on their stamp of approval.

On the second point, on the surface it would seem correct. But the physician can only petition the use of a banned substance if it is to CORRECT AN ABNORMALITY. Low normal or mid normal is not considered an abnormality.
CloakNNNdagger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2010   #20
Texan_Bill 
Subscribed Contributor
 
Texan_Bill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Houston. Mediocrity Lives Here!!
Section: Bull Pen!!
Age: 47
Posts: 48,359
Rep Power: 127410 Texan_Bill is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan_Bill is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan_Bill is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan_Bill is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan_Bill is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan_Bill is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan_Bill is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan_Bill is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan_Bill is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan_Bill is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan_Bill is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Tainted supplements

Quote:
Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger View Post
Otisbean,

That's exactly what Consumer Lab does in its testing............it will test for consistency of amount per unit per bottle and amount per unit in multiple samples of bottles from different lot numbers (batches) before putting on their stamp of approval.

On the second point, on the surface it would seem correct. But the physician can only petition the use of a banned substance if it is to CORRECT AN ABNORMALITY. Low normal or mid normal is not considered an abnormality.
Doc Jean, empty your PM inbox...
__________________
We SUCK AGAIN!
Texan_Bill is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Houston Texans Message Board & Forum - TexansTalk.com > The Great Fans of the Houston Texans > Texans Talk
Home Forums Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:18 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Ad Management by RedTyger