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Old 05-07-2010   #1
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Default KC Joyner on Texans defensive tackle position

I think people might be interested in this morning's post on my Chron blog. It looks at the Texans run/pass defense, its relationship with the offense and most importantly performance of the defensive tackles against the run, which has been a huge topic:

On the Texans defense, run-stuffing defensive tackles: A discussion with KC Joyner
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Old 05-07-2010   #2
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Default Re: KC Joyner on Texans defensive tackle position

The Joyner stuff tickles the Geek in me. I have not bothered to look, but on point #2 I would be interested to see if YoY stats for our defense on Big Plays and Red Zone efficiency went up with the down tick in rushing attempts.

IIRC, last year we were doing well on three and outs which was an encouraging stat.
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Old 05-07-2010   #3
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Default Re: KC Joyner on Texans defensive tackle position

I don't care much for thoughtful analysis. Not really my strength.

Can we please get back to the business of wild speculation and uninformed opinions?

Seriously, though: I enjoyed reading your post. Well done!

Antonio Smith has the highest percentage for winning the battle against the offensive lineman in front of him. And Okoye's lagging in that stat category. Seems to line up with the board's overall speculative impression that Smith was doing a pretty good job (even though he wasn't racking up sacks) and Okoye was not.

So perhaps Smithiak feels they can force teams to get into have-to-pass mode, as you mentioned in your post, which then makes our defense reliant upon pass rush & pass coverage. Seems logical enough.
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Old 05-07-2010   #4
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Default Re: KC Joyner on Texans defensive tackle position

I am more than a little dubious on their stats on double teams. Conventional set with 5 OLmen and 4 DLmen someone is getting doubled teamed each play and that is without accounting for a TE. The Texans had 953 defensive plays last year. He has Cody and Okoye facing a total of 75 double teams. Somehow I doubt Williams, Smith and Zgonina faced 872 double teams. Again not even accounting for a TE participating in a 2nd double team on a play.
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Old 05-07-2010   #5
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Default Re: KC Joyner on Texans defensive tackle position

If you really want to geek with some fun numbers, go to TeamRankings.com. I get lots of ideas from that just noodling around with the numbers and pairing them with my eyeball view of games.

That site shows a big improvement in defensive red zone score average per game.
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Old 05-07-2010   #6
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Default Re: KC Joyner on Texans defensive tackle position

Well ... I've taken it upon myself to unlock the DT mystery .

First it helps if they have the magical 70 point or above workout score .

35 reps bench
30 inch vertical
9 ft broad jump
= 74

Second is that you need a 1.70 or less in the 10 yd split .

Third is you need a motor .

Now the tricky part is , if you don't have the motor , 1 and 2 don't matter . Of course this is a general statement and not 100% accurate but it would improve your chances IMMO .
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Old 05-07-2010   #7
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Default Re: KC Joyner on Texans defensive tackle position

Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
I am more than a little dubious on their stats on double teams. Conventional set with 5 OLmen and 4 DLmen someone is getting doubled teamed each play and that is without accounting for a TE. The Texans had 953 defensive plays last year. He has Cody and Okoye facing a total of 75 double teams. Somehow I doubt Williams, Smith and Zgonina faced 872 double teams. Again not even accounting for a TE participating in a 2nd double team on a play.
Why do you doubt that?

On running plays, I doubt they'd double team on every defensive snap. A lot of lineman will immediately move up to the next level and try and block a linebacker.

On passing plays, if I was playing the Texans, there are only 2 defensive lineman I would ever double team: Williams and Smith.
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Old 05-07-2010   #8
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Default Re: KC Joyner on Texans defensive tackle position

Quote:
Originally Posted by Honoring Earl 34 View Post
Well ... I've taken it upon myself to unlock the DT mystery .

First it helps if they have the magical 70 point or above workout score .

35 reps bench
30 inch vertical
9 ft broad jump
= 74

Second is that you need a 1.70 or less in the 10 yd split .

Third is you need a motor .

Now the tricky part is , if you don't have the motor , 1 and 2 don't matter . Of course this is a general statement and not 100% accurate but it would improve your chances IMMO .
And the fourth part is being drafted over Darrell Revis and Patrick Willis
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Old 05-07-2010   #9
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Default Re: KC Joyner on Texans defensive tackle position

I bought Joyner's book after 2004. Among other things, he predicted that Kyle Boller and David Carr were going to be the two next great QBs. Not Kidding! I really liked his material until it consistently led to poor conclusions.
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Old 05-07-2010   #10
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Default Re: KC Joyner on Texans defensive tackle position

Quote:
Originally Posted by The1ApplePie View Post
And the fourth part is being drafted over Darrell Revis and Patrick Willis
Don't get stuck on a subject . I'm talking in general since they started posting numbers from workouts and the combine .
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Old 05-07-2010   #11
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Default Re: KC Joyner on Texans defensive tackle position

Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
I am more than a little dubious on their stats on double teams. Conventional set with 5 OLmen and 4 DLmen someone is getting doubled teamed each play and that is without accounting for a TE. The Texans had 953 defensive plays last year. He has Cody and Okoye facing a total of 75 double teams. Somehow I doubt Williams, Smith and Zgonina faced 872 double teams. Again not even accounting for a TE participating in a 2nd double team on a play.
Haven't read the article, but couldn't double teams also count with a RB chipping or blocking in the backfield? If a tackle is getting beat but a RB steps up and helps, wouldn't that be a double team.
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Old 05-07-2010   #12
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Default Re: KC Joyner on Texans defensive tackle position

Oh man, this stuff gets interesting. gtexan... if only we knew a statitician that could help us out. Make a call up to cambridge, we've got a thesis idea! lol

I've found conflicting number of plays against the Texans. 974 and 944 from nfl.com and 953 from cak... I'm gonna go with 950 for simplicity purposes.

950 snaps, Okoye/Cody account for 75 double teams. We're assuming there is a double team on every play. If we boil it down to just Mario and Antonio as getting those doubles that is 875 double teams for the season; 54 per game... or 27 double teams for each in each game. So at 59 snaps per game, Mario and Smith were each doubled about half the time? They play the majority of all the snaps, so another way to think about it is that they are, on average, double teamed on half their plays? This also doesn't account for any times Zgonina, Deljuan, Barwin are in the game so they will bring their avg. down slightly but not a lot... still above 25 doubles per game on average I would think.

I don't know what to think of that. It seems high but I guess it could be close? This also assumes that there is in fact a double on every play, some plays there might be a LB or S coming up... or the OL may go to the 2nd level withough blocking the DL so, really I doubt there is a double team on every play. I don't even know what to think anymore.
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Old 05-07-2010   #13
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Default Re: KC Joyner on Texans defensive tackle position

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Originally Posted by Ole Miss Texan View Post
Oh man, this stuff gets interesting. gtexan... if only we knew a statitician that could help us out. Make a call up to cambridge, we've got a thesis idea! lol

I've found conflicting number of plays against the Texans. 974 and 944 from nfl.com and 953 from cak... I'm gonna go with 950 for simplicity purposes.

950 snaps, Okoye/Cody account for 75 double teams. We're assuming there is a double team on every play. If we boil it down to just Mario and Antonio as getting those doubles that is 875 double teams for the season; 54 per game... or 27 double teams for each in each game. So at 59 snaps per game, Mario and Smith were each doubled about half the time? They play the majority of all the snaps, so another way to think about it is that they are, on average, double teamed on half their plays? This also doesn't account for any times Zgonina, Deljuan, Barwin are in the game so they will bring their avg. down slightly but not a lot... still above 25 doubles per game on average I would think.

I don't know what to think of that. It seems high but I guess it could be close? This also assumes that there is in fact a double on every play, some plays there might be a LB or S coming up... or the OL may go to the 2nd level withough blocking the DL so, really I doubt there is a double team on every play. I don't even know what to think anymore.
Yup, so you've got:

Subs that take double teams (Barwin, Bulman, Okam, etc)
Screens where the DL are released (no double teams there)
Runs in which OL immediately move to the next level
Safeties and Linebackers who blitz getting blocked by an available OL
Pass/run plays where one OL blocks no one (as performed by our OL sometimes)

Zgonina, Smith, and Williams were our 3 highest rated defensive lineman according to that other site.

Its not inconceivable that the numbers for Okoye and Cody were correct.

I see what icak is getting at though. If you simply watch the games, Williams rushes from the outside a lot. Its basically impossible to double team an edge rusher
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Old 05-07-2010   #14
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Default Re: KC Joyner on Texans defensive tackle position

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
I am more than a little dubious on their stats on double teams. Conventional set with 5 OLmen and 4 DLmen someone is getting doubled teamed each play UNLESS YOUR OLINE INCLUDES CHRIS MYERS and that is without accounting for a TE. The Texans had 953 defensive plays last year. He has Cody and Okoye facing a total of 75 double teams. Somehow I doubt Williams, Smith and Zgonina faced 872 double teams. Again not even accounting for a TE participating in a 2nd double team on a play.
Fixed it for ya'...

We have a 4 OL set, not 5.
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Old 05-07-2010   #15
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Default Re: KC Joyner on Texans defensive tackle position

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Originally Posted by The1ApplePie View Post
And the fourth part is being drafted over Darrell Revis and Patrick Willis
As were Jamarcus Russell, Jamaal Anderson, Ted Ginn Jr.... and Adam Carriker was just traded to the Redskins (Rams moved up 28 spots in the 5th and down 3 in the 7th)! Okoye looks like a Pro Bowler compared to those guys.. LOL
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Old 05-07-2010   #16
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Default Re: KC Joyner on Texans defensive tackle position

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Originally Posted by gtexan02 View Post
Why do you doubt that?

On running plays, I doubt they'd double team on every defensive snap. A lot of lineman will immediately move up to the next level and try and block a linebacker.
I disagree that on any significant number of plays a OLmen clears the DL clean and is not counted as blocking. In addition TEs frequently block which would lead to two double teams on a play and that is a lot more common than OLmen clearing the DL clean.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BullNation4Life View Post
Haven't read the article, but couldn't double teams also count with a RB chipping or blocking in the backfield? If a tackle is getting beat but a RB steps up and helps, wouldn't that be a double team.
I wouldn't count subsequent blocks as being double teamed but don't know if Joyner did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ole Miss Texan View Post
Oh man, this stuff gets interesting. gtexan... if only we knew a statitician that could help us out. Make a call up to cambridge, we've got a thesis idea! lol

I've found conflicting number of plays against the Texans. 974 and 944 from nfl.com and 953 from cak... I'm gonna go with 950 for simplicity purposes.

950 snaps, Okoye/Cody account for 75 double teams. We're assuming there is a double team on every play. If we boil it down to just Mario and Antonio as getting those doubles that is 875 double teams for the season; 54 per game... or 27 double teams for each in each game. So at 59 snaps per game, Mario and Smith were each doubled about half the time? They play the majority of all the snaps, so another way to think about it is that they are, on average, double teamed on half their plays? This also doesn't account for any times Zgonina, Deljuan, Barwin are in the game so they will bring their avg. down slightly but not a lot... still above 25 doubles per game on average I would think.

I don't know what to think of that. It seems high but I guess it could be close? This also assumes that there is in fact a double on every play, some plays there might be a LB or S coming up... or the OL may go to the 2nd level withough blocking the DL so, really I doubt there is a double team on every play. I don't even know what to think anymore.
Weird on the numbers. I thought I went to NFL.com but I see 974 there now. Anyhoo...

Good breakdown and yes it shows it is theoretically possible. Of course it would belie some of the assertions around here that Mario or Smith rarely command a double team since one of them would be getting it on basically every play.

As someone noted as well, edge rushers such as Mario when he wants to and Barwin are often very difficult to double team - particularly unless you want to get the TE involved which again would bring up the numbers.

Safety and corner blitzes are mainly to the outside and picked up by a RB. Yes there are LB blitzes up the middle but they are mainly picked up as a 2nd block after somebody (often on a double team) releases their block of a DLmen.
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Old 05-07-2010   #17
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Default Re: KC Joyner on Texans defensive tackle position

If the Texans wanted a space-eater, they had a great chance to grab one in Dan Williams who surprisingly was still on the Board for them, so I wonder, were they that desperate to draft a corner in the first-round or did they just not like Willams very much ? We'll never know I suppose.
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Old 05-07-2010   #18
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Default Re: KC Joyner on Texans defensive tackle position

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If the Texans wanted a space-eater, they had a great chance to grab one in Dan Williams who surprisingly was still on the Board for them, so I wonder, were they that desperate to draft a corner in the first-round or did they just not like Willams very much ? We'll never know I suppose.
A lot of teams needing DT passed on Williams.
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Old 05-07-2010   #19
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Default Re: KC Joyner on Texans defensive tackle position

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I bought Joyner's book after 2004. Among other things, he predicted that Kyle Boller and David Carr were going to be the two next great QBs. Not Kidding! I really liked his material until it consistently led to poor conclusions.
Actually, Carr had a pretty good 2004 until they played Denver and teams realized that he was worthless against Cover-2. Look back at the numbers. Then for a lot of reasons, the team fell apart because the defense got old and gone and couldn't keep it together for the conservative brand of ball they played, and the offense was a mish-mash of philosophies that didn't work.
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Old 05-07-2010   #20
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Default Re: KC Joyner on Texans defensive tackle position

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I think people might be interested in this morning's post on my Chron blog. It looks at the Texans run/pass defense, its relationship with the offense and most importantly performance of the defensive tackles against the run, which has been a huge topic:

On the Texans defense, run-stuffing defensive tackles: A discussion with KC Joyner
I'm reading it now but wanted to let you know LZ gave you some mad props on this earlier this morning...
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