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5 who could follow the Saints (from Pete Prisco)

After watching the playoffs this year I didn't think there was a team that the Texans couldn't, scratch that, shouldn't beat. They have to find a way to avoid the little mistakes that they make during close games. Maybe the 4th Quarter comeback against the Pats will spark that. As Peter King stated during Super Bowl week, people watch us wondering what we will do to implode this week. That has to stop and there is no reason this team can't play in February. I'd love to beat Jerry Jones and the Cowboys in their stadium.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/12915117/the-winning-formula-five-that-can-make-super-jump

Love him or hate him (ok I don't know anyone who loves him) at least we're being talked about.
OK read... not really saying a lot.

What I think is interesting, and think we should probably start discussing, is that we've been in this situation before.

2004, we went 7-9. We thought we were going to be the next big thing, & the media were starting to tag us the same way. Then the bottom fell out.

I'd like to know what it is about this organization now, that will make that less likely to happen again.

My first thought, is that McNair has taken a seat further back in the bus. I think the biggest reason for the 2-14 season, was that David Carr had no accountability. Everyone in that locker room knew what the single biggest thing holding the team back was, & the head coach didn't have the power to do anything about it.

I'll admit there are some similarities with Kubiak. I don't know the rhyme or reason, why he'll start a Wali Lundy week 1, but make a Steve Slaton come in slowly, or an Arian Foster to come in even slower. Personally, I think the more pressure is on, the more conservative he wants to be. I think he needs to get over that.

I think our run game would have been much better, if he moved Caldwell to Center, started Arian Foster earlier, and or given Moats the ball more.

I know he has his reasons for all the moves he made, or didn't make, but I can't understand why he wouldn't put game changers in the game.
 

DiehardChris

You betcha!
Prisco definitely suffers from relying too much on the stats in this case. Antonio Smith was worth the contract he signed. He started a little slow, but he was the most effective defensive lineman we had in 2009. He was great against the run and in the second half of the season he was consistently getting pressure on the QB.
 
2004, we went 7-9. We thought we were going to be the next big thing, & the media were starting to tag us the same way. Then the bottom fell out.

I'd like to know what it is about this organization now, that will make that less likely to happen again.
After the 2004 season the Texans took a hatchet to their roster in an effort to get younger, and the old guys they kept just got older.

If anything, this year they will try to add veteran experience instead of cutting the heart out of the defense. It would also be nice if we didn't fire the offensive coordinator at the beginning of the season.
 

BigBull17

Hall of Fame
Prisco definitely suffers from relying too much on the stats in this case. Antonio Smith was worth the contract he signed. He started a little slow, but he was the most effective defensive lineman we had in 2009. He was great against the run and in the second half of the season he was consistently getting pressure on the QB.
Agfreed. I was very impressed with what he showed last year. He is very disruptive.
 

Thorn

Dirty Old Man
We all knew before last season started we had the ability, but could we? Well, here we are again before the next season knowing we have the ability, but will we?

Same ole same ole. Wait and see. Still though, I love me some Houston Texans anyway. :)
 

dalemurphy

Hall of Fame
We all knew before last season started we had the ability, but could we? Well, here we are again before the next season knowing we have the ability, but will we?

Same ole same ole. Wait and see. Still though, I love me some Houston Texans anyway. :)
But, weren't we a little delusional last year... Before we knew what we had in Cushing, G.Quin, and before we acquired Pollard, I thought we were a 10 win team. Of course it was possible to win ten games even without those heavy contributions but everything would've had to fall perfectly. We certainly couldn't afford all the injuries we suffered on offense.

I guess my point is that, from a talent standpoint, we have increased our margin of error. Another good off-season will increase it further. So, the odds are much better for a playoff season, despite what any of us have experienced in the past or any doubts we have about the coaching staff.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club

threetoedpete

Hall of Fame
Prisco definitely suffers from relying too much on the stats in this case. Antonio Smith was worth the contract he signed. He started a little slow, but he was the most effective defensive lineman we had in 2009. He was great against the run and in the second half of the season he was consistently getting pressure on the QB.
Considering what they've gotten out of the ghosts of free agents past, agreed. We had to pay a little more for hm because we aren't winners yet. I was well pleased with his performance. With Barwin under his wing, they both will make each other better as the seasons go on. Which in turn should make all the front seven much better.

I disagree with his player must step up. They need to at least an upgrade with competition at guard. And everyone should know by now whom I have the man love for. And whom I believe is the perfect fit. Iupati.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
I disagree with his player must step up. They need to at least an upgrade with competition at guard. And everyone should know by now whom I have the man love for. And whom I believe is the perfect fit. Iupati.
I disagree as well. IMHO, the person that needs to step up is the CB playing opposite Glover Quinn. It's a shame when your 4th round rookie plays better than your Franchised Corner.
 

Malloy

Hall of Fame
We all knew before last season started we had the ability, but could we? Well, here we are again before the next season knowing we have the ability, but will we?

Same ole same ole. Wait and see. Still though, I love me some Houston Texans anyway. :)
TY old man, ty :)
 
I disagree as well. IMHO, the person that needs to step up is the CB playing opposite Glover Quinn. It's a shame when your 4th round rookie plays better than your Franchised Corner.
By what standard?

Quin played 497 snaps in coverage, and gave up 587 yards, at 11.5 ypr/ 7.5 ypa.
D-Rob played 618 snaps in coverage, and gave up 544 yards, at 10.3 ypr/6.7 ypa.

Both had 0 interceptions.
 

GP

Go Texans!
...I don't know the rhyme or reason, why he'll start a Wali Lundy week 1, but make a Steve Slaton come in slowly, or an Arian Foster to come in even slower. Personally, I think the more pressure is on, the more conservative he wants to be. I think he needs to get over that.

I think our run game would have been much better, if he moved Caldwell to Center, started Arian Foster earlier, and or given Moats the ball more.

I know he has his reasons for all the moves he made, or didn't make, but I can't understand why he wouldn't put game changers in the game.
TK,

What I quoted of yours, above, is not an isolated incident.

Expand what you just said, and apply it to the favor he shows to Walter and Anderson vs. putting Jacoby Jones in there at the expense of making one of those two guys take a lower seat on the totem pole at WR.

So we have multiple instances of a head coach with roster problems...

1. Doesn't demote Myers at center, thereby making a statement that whoever gets Myers' job better do a better job or Kubiak's going to demote THAT guy and then put another person in there until the center position is made better. Maybe injuries precluded that Myers stays at center, though, so I give Kubiak a little bit of breathing room on this one.

2. Jacoby Jones. And I know there's one or two posters who are going to throw out the snaps stats and show that Jacoby got fair shots. Whatever. He's a dangerous guy and should be in there as a true #2. Period.

3. Running back mistakes. The unearthing of Steve Slaton in 2008's draft is now beginning to look less fantastic because he hung his hat on Steve, thinking he might have finally solved that puzzle. But then the fumbles began, then the Chris Brown experiment backfired in what can only be described as a colossal failure. We had a chance at Cedric Benson, laughing at him the first time and then relenting and showing such abject indifference that we let the Bengals outbid us. Oops. Then we had a shot at maybe a 1-year contract with Larry Johnson. Sigh. And finally, we sat Chris Brown's butt on the bench in the very last game and saw a heavy dose of Arian Foster. Gawd I hope Kubiak doesn't think he has found his saving grace at RB now. But, as we all know, there is a pattern here with Kubiak...

4. Kris Brown. Like I have said: Do we want to be seen as a kinder, gentler NFL franchise? Bob McNair votes "Yes!" Fine by me. Kubiak doesn't have to cut Kris after the MNF game. All he has to do is cut CHRIS Brown, since he's dead weight anyway. Then we could have signed a kicker in his place, sat Kris down and gave him a breather (let him clear his head), and let the new guy take a stab at it. Heck, if the new kicker stinks it up...it might give Kris Brown something he hasn't had in almost a whole decade: Competition and accountability. Think about it for a sec, and what that does to a guy's performance when he knows damn well that he has nobody looking over his shoulder. Even from a subconscious standpoint, it has an impact on someone's mentality toward his job.

5. I'm adding two new guys to this list: Connor Barwin and Amobi Okoye. These are two guys who might just be in over their heads, though Barwin's "motor" seems to be producing more RPM's than Amobi's.

These situations reflect roster decisions, with the last one being more of a drafting issue, I suppose. But the drafting issue turns into a roster situation pretty quickly because as we have seen from Kubiak: He will literally will his favored kids to success. Everyone likes to see this sort of loyalty to a small degree. But loyalty at the expense of the entire team is indicative, IMO, of someone who doesn't see things in a Big Picture mindset.

Which then goes on, IMO, to reveal why Kubiak also has problems with finding ways to beat divisional rivals and his problem with what some of us perceive to not being able to out-coach teams who are better than us.

In the grand scheme of things, Gary Kubiak is not currently a head coach whom I think is going to deliver a Super Bowl. Bob McNair believes he is, or is only saying this because it's all he can say right now. Who knows.

Casting our offensive statistical explosiveness aside, I ask myself one critical question: At the end of the day, is our head coach a guy who finds ways to beat the teams in his division (even if it's only going .500 against them) and does he inspire confidence with the decisions he makes regarding gameplanning and gameday strategies?

Kubiak doesn't get graded higher because he has Andre Johnson. Remove a few wild cards from this equation and let's really think about what we have here at head coach.

Alas, he's what we got and I concur that we should support him. But I want you to expand your critical thinking (that I quoted) and move it toward looking at Kubiak through that lens a bit more. It's why there's a constituency on here who can't find it within themselves to Keep Hope Alive.

I really feel that any success we're going to have in 2010 will be a reflection more upon the players than the quality of our head coach; that we'll win in spite of Kubiak, not because of Kubiak. Which makes people wonder what we'd do with a real gameday strategist at the controls of this team.
 

sandman

Brexit Advisor
By what standard?

Quin played 497 snaps in coverage, and gave up 587 yards, at 11.5 ypr/ 7.5 ypa.
D-Rob played 618 snaps in coverage, and gave up 544 yards, at 10.3 ypr/6.7 ypa.

Both had 0 interceptions.
I think you just made the argument yourself. You are pointing out that the franchised CB stats were one yard a reception better than the 4th round rookie, right?

I would say that Quinn played at about a 4th round rookie expectation, and DRob played WELL below his Franchise tag. So, relative to expectations, Quinn was the better player last year.
 

GP

Go Texans!
And I don't think I am re-routing this thread by going back to the debate about our coach.

The Saints are who they are, IMO, because of their head coach.

Sean Payton and Gary Kubiak should not be included in the same paragraph. The premise of the article is flawed because the two men are far apart when it comes to being the "total package" as a head coach.

Kubiak has his head buried in the details of his offense, and Payton appears to know how to make all the different parts of whole team function as one singular unit.
 

dalemurphy

Hall of Fame
TK,

What I quoted of yours, above, is not an isolated incident.

Expand what you just said, and apply it to the favor he shows to Walter and Anderson vs. putting Jacoby Jones in there at the expense of making one of those two guys take a lower seat on the totem pole at WR.

So we have multiple instances of a head coach with roster problems...

1. Doesn't demote Myers at center, thereby making a statement that whoever gets Myers' job better do a better job or Kubiak's going to demote THAT guy and then put another person in there until the center position is made better. Maybe injuries precluded that Myers stays at center, though, so I give Kubiak a little bit of breathing room on this one.

2. Jacoby Jones. And I know there's one or two posters who are going to throw out the snaps stats and show that Jacoby got fair shots. Whatever. He's a dangerous guy and should be in there as a true #2. Period.

3. Running back mistakes. The unearthing of Steve Slaton in 2008's draft is now beginning to look less fantastic because he hung his hat on Steve, thinking he might have finally solved that puzzle. But then the fumbles began, then the Chris Brown experiment backfired in what can only be described as a colossal failure. We had a chance at Cedric Benson, laughing at him the first time and then relenting and showing such abject indifference that we let the Bengals outbid us. Oops. Then we had a shot at maybe a 1-year contract with Larry Johnson. Sigh. And finally, we sat Chris Brown's butt on the bench in the very last game and saw a heavy dose of Arian Foster. Gawd I hope Kubiak doesn't think he has found his saving grace at RB now. But, as we all know, there is a pattern here with Kubiak...

4. Kris Brown. Like I have said: Do we want to be seen as a kinder, gentler NFL franchise? Bob McNair votes "Yes!" Fine by me. Kubiak doesn't have to cut Kris after the MNF game. All he has to do is cut CHRIS Brown, since he's dead weight anyway. Then we could have signed a kicker in his place, sat Kris down and gave him a breather (let him clear his head), and let the new guy take a stab at it. Heck, if the new kicker stinks it up...it might give Kris Brown something he hasn't had in almost a whole decade: Competition and accountability. Think about it for a sec, and what that does to a guy's performance when he knows damn well that he has nobody looking over his shoulder. Even from a subconscious standpoint, it has an impact on someone's mentality toward his job.

5. I'm adding two new guys to this list: Connor Barwin and Amobi Okoye. These are two guys who might just be in over their heads, though Barwin's "motor" seems to be producing more RPM's than Amobi's.

These situations reflect roster decisions, with the last one being more of a drafting issue, I suppose. But the drafting issue turns into a roster situation pretty quickly because as we have seen from Kubiak: He will literally will his favored kids to success. Everyone likes to see this sort of loyalty to a small degree. But loyalty at the expense of the entire team is indicative, IMO, of someone who doesn't see things in a Big Picture mindset.

Which then goes on, IMO, to reveal why Kubiak also has problems with finding ways to beat divisional rivals and his problem with what some of us perceive to not being able to out-coach teams who are better than us.

In the grand scheme of things, Gary Kubiak is not currently a head coach whom I think is going to deliver a Super Bowl. Bob McNair believes he is, or is only saying this because it's all he can say right now. Who knows.

Casting our offensive statistical explosiveness aside, I ask myself one critical question: At the end of the day, is our head coach a guy who finds ways to beat the teams in his division (even if it's only going .500 against them) and does he inspire confidence with the decisions he makes regarding gameplanning and gameday strategies?

Kubiak doesn't get graded higher because he has Andre Johnson. Remove a few wild cards from this equation and let's really think about what we have here at head coach.

Alas, he's what we got and I concur that we should support him. But I want you to expand your critical thinking (that I quoted) and move it toward looking at Kubiak through that lens a bit more. It's why there's a constituency on here who can't find it within themselves to Keep Hope Alive.

I really feel that any success we're going to have in 2010 will be a reflection more upon the players than the quality of our head coach; that we'll win in spite of Kubiak, not because of Kubiak. Which makes people wonder what we'd do with a real gameday strategist at the controls of this team.

Don't you think you would have had very similar criticisms of Sean Payton after their season in 2007 and 2008 if you were a Saints' fan?

Anytime a team disappoints, then of course there are going to be some poor performances/decisions that contributed to the disappointment. Those of us that support Kubiak, in general, believe two things: 1. most/all coaches make similar mistakes that cost their teams sometimes... 2. history is unlikely to repeat itself in 2010.
 

sandman

Brexit Advisor
And I don't think I am re-routing this thread by going back to the debate about our coach.

The Saints are who they are, IMO, because of their head coach.

Sean Payton and Gary Kubiak should not be included in the same paragraph. The premise of the article is flawed because the two men are far apart when it comes to being the "total package" as a head coach.

Kubiak has his head buried in the details of his offense, and Payton appears to know how to make all the different parts of whole team function as one singular unit.
I would agree with you, as long as it is not based on the flawed premise that they both have been at the helm of their respective teams for 4 years and Payton has already won a Super Bowl.

Payton had the benefit of inheriting a consistent .500 team (2000-2004) before having one bad year in 2005, and having Brees drop in his lap. Kubiak got a team with 2,4 and 5 wins in three of the four years before, and David Carr.

Let's not forget that before this season, Payton was a .500 coach as well. So basically, for an entire decade, the Saints were a .500 team except for one year (2005).

What Payton has shown is that he was finally able to take the Saints version of the 2007-2009 version of the Texans and make them a winning playoff team. That is something that Gary will probably never do, and thus the difference between the two.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
TK,

What I quoted of yours, above, is not an isolated incident.
Alas, he's what we got and I concur that we should support him. But I want you to expand your critical thinking (that I quoted) and move it toward looking at Kubiak through that lens a bit more. It's why there's a constituency on here who can't find it within themselves to Keep Hope Alive.
I'm not the only Sunshiner that sees the same things. I agree with you on Jacoby vs Walter.. it's not that Walter isn't a #2, but Jacoby is a game-changer, a play-maker. I think we feel the same about Caldwell over Myers.... it's not that Myers suck(if you watch him play, he plays very well) but Caldwell plays as well, plus he's bigger, stronger, & just as fast.

The difference, is that what you see as the only conclusion, we know there are a hundred different scenarios that could have played out. Jacoby might have got the big head..... Caldwell could have got Schaub killed.... who knows.

I could be totally wrong, but I would bet if Slaton didn't have the fumbles, we would have seen Foster sooner. Or if it wasn't do-or-die with 4 back-to-back division games that late in the season, we'd have seen Foster sooner. But it's hard to say.

I know it sounds like I'm waxing over Kubiak's flaws. I'd like to have a serious discussion about them, I know they are there, you know they are there, we all know they are there. But you soapers only have one solution...
I really feel that any success we're going to have in 2010 will be a reflection more upon the players than the quality of our head coach; that we'll win in spite of Kubiak, not because of Kubiak. Which makes people wonder what we'd do with a real gameday strategist at the controls of this team.
Because there are no strategic demands for throwing for 4,770 yards with no running game. Plug in Andre, Plug in Schaub, anyone could do it. :sarcasm:

Or for taking the 30th rank defense to 13 after spotting the league three games. That's a much better improvement than Sean Payton had & he payed Greg Williams out of his own pocket.

You guys look past everything Kubiak has done well, and focus on what he's done poorly..... & that's all you want to talk about.

The Saints went 8-8 last year, 7-9 the year before, with a team that proved they could go 10-6. But we complain that Kubiak can't inspire a team that went 8-8 for the first time in their history to do better than 8-8 the year after they did it for the first time. :kitten:
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
And I don't think I am re-routing this thread by going back to the debate about our coach.
The Saints are who they are, IMO, because of their head coach.
Here we go.
Sean Payton and Gary Kubiak should not be included in the same paragraph. The premise of the article is flawed because the two men are far apart when it comes to being the "total package" as a head coach.
Exactly what I'm talking about.

Regardless what their teams records were, the good experience level on each team was different. The teams they play on a yearly basis, different. Their approach to FA, different.
Kubiak has his head buried in the details of his offense, and Payton appears to know how to make all the different parts of whole team function as one singular unit.
Here is the double standard. Payton goes out and get's Greg Williams after Benson said he wouldn't pay for him..... & "he knows how to make all the different parts of a whole team function as one singular unit."

Kubiak's defense has improved much better than Greg Williams' has. But Gary's head is buried in his offense.....

c'mon man!!!
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
TK

1. What are Kubes flaws in your opinion.
2. What is your solution to the problem (s)

I will give you my solutions

1. Do everything possible including taking chances on ? character guys,spending $ and draft picks to fix long standing problems at RB,OL and DB. Fire whoever has been making questionable talent decisions in FA. (Probably Bobby Greir)
2. Hire a specific person to assist Kubes on clock management and use of timeouts. This is the new hires only job.
3. Win more games and this problem takes care of its self.

Yeah the McNair has a different approach to FA than the Saints. The difference is that the Saints have a good approach to filling holes. The Texans approach stinks,

I dont fault Kubes for FA. That falls on McNair. Even though some MB members say McNair gives Kubes anything he wants in FA. We dont know this to be fact. We do know McNair said the Texans wouldn't go after tier 1 players in FA.

This is telling to me.

I would love to hear your thoughts on this TK.
 
I think you just made the argument yourself. You are pointing out that the franchised CB stats were one yard a reception better than the 4th round rookie, right?
That 1 yard is what separates good from average. It's the difference between being 8th best and 30th.

I would say that Quinn played at about a 4th round rookie expectation, and DRob played WELL below his Franchise tag. So, relative to expectations, Quinn was the better player last year.
Quin played quite well actually. He was one of the top 5 corners to come out of this draft.

Saying that a 6th year veteran performed much better than Quin isn't a knock. Being the 54th best corner means he's a starting caliber #2, just not anywhere near a #1, which Robinson has proven capable of.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
TK

1. What are Kubes flaws in your opinion.
2. What is your solution to the problem (s)
Kubiak does seem to favor some players more than others, & it doesn't appear to be performance based. I'm talking about Slaton vs Moats... IMHO, Slaton should have got a lot more bench time. The line wasn't playing very well early in the season anyway, let Moats take the beating while Slaton straightens his head.

I think he needs to at least talk to his leaders before he sends them on the field. They're young, they need settling. If he's got Mario or Antonio on the sidelines on a regular rotation, he needs his position coaches in their ear telling them what needs to be done, like a trainer who has his boxer in the corner between rounds.

He needs to develop a short memory. We goofed up 2 minute drills back in 2006, & it took us 3 years before we tried one again.


Yeah the McNair has a different approach to FA than the Saints. The difference is that the Saints have a good approach to filling holes. The Texans approach stinks,

I dont fault Kubes for FA. That falls on McNair. Even though some MB members say McNair gives Kubes anything he wants in FA. We dont know this to be fact. We do know McNair said the Texans wouldn't go after tier 1 players in FA.

This is telling to me.

I would love to hear your thoughts on this TK.
I'd love for you to tell me which holes they filled. Their pass rush is as ineffective as ours. Their secondary is as passive as ours. Their defense is statistically worse than ours.

It's not that they got better players than we do.... would you rather have Fujita, Vilma, Shanle as your starting LBs or Diles, Demeco, Cushing?

Don't think Busing vs Sharper. At the time, it was Eugene vs Sharper.

IMHO, the FA thing is a question of whether you want to win now, or later.

By the way, I don't think the Saints broke the bank on any of their FAs.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
That 1 yard is what separates good from average. It's the difference between being 8th best and 30th.
In this particular instance, the differential in number of snaps makes that one yard seem huge..... in Dunta's favor.

I don't want to argue this point, based on those stats, because they don't really tell you what happened. It's not like they were manned up for every snap, & I don't know how they attributed the yards to the individual corner. I think Dunta had a good year... but Quin looked to be the better cover corner.
 

gary

Hall of Fame
TK

1. What are Kubes flaws in your opinion.
2. What is your solution to the problem (s)

I will give you my solutions

1. Do everything possible including taking chances on ? character guys,spending $ and draft picks to fix long standing problems at RB,OL and DB. Fire whoever has been making questionable talent decisions in FA. (Probably Bobby Greir)
2. Hire a specific person to assist Kubes on clock management and use of timeouts. This is the new hires only job.
3. Win more games and this problem takes care of its self.

Yeah the McNair has a different approach to FA than the Saints. The difference is that the Saints have a good approach to filling holes. The Texans approach stinks,

I dont fault Kubes for FA. That falls on McNair. Even though some MB members say McNair gives Kubes anything he wants in FA. We dont know this to be fact. We do know McNair said the Texans wouldn't go after tier 1 players in FA.

This is telling to me.

I would love to hear your thoughts on this TK.
Getting better through the draft is fine with me but don't anyone tell me there is not anyway to continue that same trend without going after SOME FA's. Oh, please give me a break. Not you personally but I am just saying do not give me that garbage. Most NFL teams these days draft well AND pick up a couple of FA's to go along with others you draft. There are more than enough FA's out there who have a number of years left but you have to be willing to pay them. You should not just put a team full of draft picks out there every singe Sunday and wait to get better that is a huge part of the Texans many years of suckage IMO. On D when you know you're just a DT or player on the other side of Mario even a DB away from improving the D that much more you do not always have to just sit back and draft someone and say, hopefully he pans out by the 2015 season after being drafted in the 2010 draft for exsample. Trade for one or two of those or pick up one or two FA's big names I might add just for once and then draft the other. I don't care but that is the difference between the Texans and top teams like the Steelers, Pats, and the Colts their ownership knows how to mix and match so to speak Bob either chooses not to or he does not know how to. It's really how those teams have stayed on top for this long if you ask me. This is not a knock against Bob it's just the blunt truth and you and me know it. All of us want the samething though an SB win but I just wish the Texans would go after a big name FA just one time and try to speed up the progress even more. I know this post was not ment for me to reply to but here are my thoughts on this subject anyway.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Thanks for the reply

You put my thoughts into words much better than I could have.

Apparently you misunderstood we are in total agreement on this subject.

Every year they dont make moves to succeed is one less year of AJ,Dunta,Matt,and Ryans career.
 

gary

Hall of Fame
Thanks for the reply

You put my thoughts into words much better than I could have.

Apparently you misunderstood we are in total agreement on this subject.

Every year they dont make moves to succeed is one less year of AJ,Dunta,Matt,and Ryans career.
My post was not a rage at you or anyone here. I just think both ways should be done.
 

sandman

Brexit Advisor
Saying that a 6th year veteran performed much better than Quin isn't a knock. Being the 54th best corner means he's a starting caliber #2, just not anywhere near a #1, which Robinson has proven capable of.
When in the 2009 season, or post injury for that matter, did DRob prove he was capable of being a #1 CB?

Unless we are talking about for this specific team, where the secondary was a known weakness. But that is like saying he was the prettiest ugly chick at the bar.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
TK its not about the how much $ is spent comparitively. It's about filling holes.

The Saints new coming into this year they had holes on the DL,DB's and they needed depth at RB.

These were the same holes the Texans had except we needed aLB too.

They drafted the DT from USC Ellis. Because they knew about the possible suspensions of their starting DE's they also signed Spicer (who wasn't good) and Hargrove (who the Texans never would've signed because of off field stuff)

In the secondary they signed Greer (Cheap) coming off injury, Sharper (They got lucky that he didn't get injured, and drafted Jenkins. When you put all of this together with the 2008 trade for Vilma and signing Bobby McCray in FA(who I really wanted the Texans to sign) the Saints developed a good deep fast defense.

On offense for the depth they needed at RB the Saints added Texan cut M.Bell and found a Diamond in the rough (Something the Texans are still looking for going into year 5 of the Smithiak regime)

What did the Texans do in the mean time? They Sign A.Smith in FA, franchise Dunta to the tune of 10 mil a year, re-sign Wilson, they also draft Cush,Barwin and Quin. They also sign Foster as an UDFA.

Meanwhile they make Ryans and OD play under the tag designation.

Did you know the Saints only had 1 draft pick in the first 3rds of the draft. (Ellis) They traded a 2nd for Shockey and their 3rd rd pick Arnoux tore his ACL and was lost for the season. How did they manage to have a winning record much less win a SB without draft picks? By making trades and FA signings for productive Vet leaders, taking chances on a few character issue guys and a HC that was willing to pull $ out of his pocket to get the most qualified DC.

This long rambling post was made to let people see what forward thinking organizations like the Saints are doing compared to what the Texans need to be doing to reach the level of the Saints.

It's on McNair to decide if he wants to step up to the plate and bring a winner that the Texans fans deserve,or continue status quo. So far the signs aren't promising. IMHO

This lo
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
My post was not a rage at you or anyone here. I just think both ways should be done.
To be successful it has to be a mixture of both philosophies.

That's the way the Saints,Jets and Vikings were built.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
When in the 2009 season, or post injury for that matter, did DRob prove he was capable of being a #1 CB?

Unless we are talking about for this specific team, where the secondary was a known weakness. But that is like saying he was the prettiest ugly chick at the bar.
LOL

I'm not sure Dunta was in the top 5 CB's in the NFL pre-injury.
 

GP

Go Texans!
Don't you think you would have had very similar criticisms of Sean Payton after their season in 2007 and 2008 if you were a Saints' fan?

Anytime a team disappoints, then of course there are going to be some poor performances/decisions that contributed to the disappointment. Those of us that support Kubiak, in general, believe two things: 1. most/all coaches make similar mistakes that cost their teams sometimes... 2. history is unlikely to repeat itself in 2010.
I think the big knock on the Saints was the drafting of Reggie Bush AND the issue of Jason David at CB.

Funny how we have Kubiak and Payton who are both offensive guys, being held responsible for their defensive rosters: It's eerie with the similarity in DB problems we've each had. Compound this with the idea that "what if" we had taken Bush or Young at #1 and Mario goes to the Saints? Mario now has a ring, and Bush is stuck on the Texans...and the national media lambasts the Texans for (a) passing on Mario and (b) relegating a national icon known as Reggie Bush to the role of poor, pitiful "stuck on the Texans" Reggie Bush.

The difference is that Payton got on his pony and whipped and spurred to get those DB issues resolved. Kubiak is working, IMO, a little slower in the sense that he's built the LB crew (with drafting Brian Cushing) and our DB crew is almost there if we can nail down the CB position a bit more.

All of this aside, I wonder if Drew Brees is a better overall QB than Schaub. Can Schaub put up the stats? Obviously he can. But which QB has that intangible killer instinct that just seems to know how to win any type of game that rolls his way? Brees. They had a late-season slump, but they won when it counted. The Saints found a way to beat the Cardinals, the Vikings, and the Colts...three teams we dang sure couldn't beat in 2009 (pre-season included).

Is Payton a benefactor of Drew Brees getting "not much sniff" from the other 31 teams in the NFL? Yes. But is he also a man who found a way to beat the teams that we couldn't? Yep.

That's what makes a coach a Super Bowl champion coach in my book.

And that's the standard bearer.
 
When in the 2009 season, or post injury for that matter, did DRob prove he was capable of being a #1 CB?

Unless we are talking about for this specific team, where the secondary was a known weakness. But that is like saying he was the prettiest ugly chick at the bar.
He showed it the whole season.

LOL

I'm not sure Dunta was in the top 5 CB's in the NFL pre-injury.
Nobody said anything about top 5. There are 64 starting corner jobs in the NFL. 32 #1's, and 32 #2's.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
He was paid as a top 5 CB. 10 mil LOL.

This was a bad deal.

The Saints signed Greer for 4 yrs 22 mil. locking up their no.1 cb for a long time.

While Smithiak are going to be looking at drafting a CB in the first 3 rds of the draft.

Just another sign of mismanagement by McNair/Smithiak.
 

infantrycak

Hall of Fame
TK its not about the how much $ is spent comparitively. It's about filling holes.

The Saints new coming into this year they had holes on the DL,DB's and they needed depth at RB.

These were the same holes the Texans had except we needed aLB too.

They drafted the DT from USC Ellis. Because they knew about the possible suspensions of their starting DE's they also signed Spicer (who wasn't good) and Hargrove (who the Texans never would've signed because of off field stuff)

In the secondary they signed Greer (Cheap) coming off injury, Sharper (They got lucky that he didn't get injured, and drafted Jenkins. When you put all of this together with the 2008 trade for Vilma and signing Bobby McCray in FA(who I really wanted the Texans to sign) the Saints developed a good deep fast defense.

On offense for the depth they needed at RB the Saints added Texan cut M.Bell and found a Diamond in the rough (Something the Texans are still looking for going into year 5 of the Smithiak regime)

What did the Texans do in the mean time? They Sign A.Smith in FA, franchise Dunta to the tune of 10 mil a year, re-sign Wilson, they also draft Cush,Barwin and Quin. They also sign Foster as an UDFA.

Meanwhile they make Ryans and OD play under the tag designation.

Did you know the Saints only had 1 draft pick in the first 3rds of the draft. (Ellis) They traded a 2nd for Shockey and their 3rd rd pick Arnoux tore his ACL and was lost for the season. How did they manage to have a winning record much less win a SB without draft picks? By making trades and FA signings for productive Vet leaders, taking chances on a few character issue guys and a HC that was willing to pull $ out of his pocket to get the most qualified DC.

This long rambling post was made to let people see what forward thinking organizations like the Saints are doing compared to what the Texans need to be doing to reach the level of the Saints.

It's on McNair to decide if he wants to step up to the plate and bring a winner that the Texans fans deserve,or continue status quo. So far the signs aren't promising. IMHO

This lo
Funny, all this with 95% about defense and McNair and Kubiak being incompetent and the Texans D improved more than the Saints D and was a better D than the Saints D. Bottom line the Saints won off of a fantastic offense and some lucky/opportunistic D play.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Funny, all this with 95% about defense and McNair and Kubiak being incompetent and the Texans D improved more than the Saints D and was a better D than the Saints D. Bottom line the Saints won off of a fantastic offense and some lucky/opportunistic D play.
This isn't about the Texans D vs the Saints D or the Texans O vs the Saints O.

This is about the Saints making bold agressive moves despite having very few draft choices.

In contrast to the Texans making very few moves not being agressive, building mostly through the draft.

This is the difference between a playoff team/SB winner and a team which finishes 7-9, 9-7 regularly.

Not all of the moves the Saints make are going to work out. But atleast they are trying to do everything they can to put the best product on the field as possible.

When the bold moves the Saints make do work you have teams that make the confrence finals or win the the SB like this year.

The Texans could learn a thing or two by looking at how the Saints go about their business. Or for that matter the Vikings or Jets.

Oh well the most exciting time of the Texans season is coming up soon. The draft

Really sad
 

infantrycak

Hall of Fame
You can call them bold but bottom line the Texans' moves on D were more effective. I don't see how you spin that into a failing of the coaching or ownership.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
You can call them bold but bottom line the Texans' moves on D were more effective. I don't see how you spin that into a failing of the coaching or ownership.
Your looking strictly at the numbers.

I'm talking about philosophies.

2 entirely differenet things.

Every hole you fill in FA is one that you dont have to fill in the draft and vice versa. Ideally you would want to fill 2/3 needs in FA and 2/3 in the draft every year. Fillng 5 holes per year. You sign2 young FA's to 4 yr deals and draft 2/3 guys that can play each year. If you still feel as though there are needs to address you sign a vet FA to a 1/2 yr deal.

With this philosophy a team should have few holes within 3 yrs.

Last year the Texans had holes at DT,DE, LB,RB,CB and needed depth at OL. That's 6 needs. They prioritized DE and LB (pass rush) was their biggest need.

Hence A.Smith in FA and Cush and Barwin in the draft. They hit on a long shot with Quin. They ignored depth on the OL or missed on Caldwell. Wouldn't it have been nice to have signed a couple of vet FA's that were low cost signings like OL Weigman or Carlisle when Myers Brisiel, or Pitts got hurt? They chose to go with Slaton and C.Brown (who was coming off back surgrey) and an UDFA (Foster) at RB. When for a few extra $ they could've signed Benson. These kinds of inexpensive FA signings are huge for depth purposes.

This year the Texans have holes at RB,CB,S,DT and S

I hope they fill 2 of these needs in FA My choices would be C.Taylor (3yr deal and if you have to over pay a little you do it.) and J.Jolly. He's from Houston and should be available in FA) McNair wont sign him because of drug thing but he would be a perfect fit. (Hargrove would be an example of a character chance that paid off)

That would leave CB,OG and S as the big 3 needs. This is a deep draft that those 3 needs could be filled with guy that could be starters right away. (Wilson,Burnett and Asamoah would be my choices) Then you can spend the rest of the draft getting depth or BPA.

Bottom line is you cant build you cant build just through the draft. You have to take chances on 1 or 2 character issue guys Hargrove is an example and Maybe a vet. you have to over pay for (Sharper for example)

I dont think Kubes likes the older vet FA signings and I know McNair doesn't want to sign character issues. (L.Johnson, Benson) McNair likes to sign the tier 2 young guy that he has to over pay to get.

This philosopy has to change if the Texans are going to become a winning team. IMO
 

gary

Hall of Fame
It's not going to happen but do not act like a vet like Casey Hapmton would NOT bring leadership to the Texans D and be that missing run stuffer.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
They drafted the DT from USC Ellis. Because they knew about the possible suspensions of their starting DE's they also signed Spicer (who wasn't good) and Hargrove (who the Texans never would've signed because of off field stuff)

In the secondary they signed Greer (Cheap) coming off injury, Sharper (They got lucky that he didn't get injured, and drafted Jenkins. When you put all of this together with the 2008 trade for Vilma and signing Bobby McCray in FA(who I really wanted the Texans to sign) the Saints developed a good deep fast defense.
For the record. Our defense was better than the Saints defense in 2009. They had more Interceptions, but that's it. Our defense allowed less points per game. less yards per game. Less rushing yards, & less passing yards.

Statistically, Smith & Kubiak did a better job filling holes on the defensive side than Payton & Loomis.

But there is a double standard here that has blinded you to what Kubiak has done here.
On offense for the depth they needed at RB the Saints added Texan cut M.Bell and found a Diamond in the rough (Something the Texans are still looking for going into year 5 of the Smithiak regime)
We tried the Mike Bell thing. Either he didn't get the message here, and needed to take a serious look at life outside the NFL, or we screwed the pooch. And we've got plenty of diamonds; Walter, Jacoby, Diles, Chris Taylor, Chris Spencer, and possibly Arian Foster.
What did the Texans do in the mean time? They Sign A.Smith in FA, franchise Dunta to the tune of 10 mil a year, re-sign Wilson, they also draft Cush,Barwin and Quin. They also sign Foster as an UDFA.
Again, our defense performed better than theirs.
Meanwhile they make Ryans and OD play under the tag designation.
Not really.. stop fishing.
Did you know the Saints only had 1 draft pick in the first 3rds of the draft. (Ellis) They traded a 2nd for Shockey and their 3rd rd pick Arnoux tore his ACL and was lost for the season. How did they manage to have a winning record much less win a SB without draft picks? By making trades and FA signings for productive Vet leaders, taking chances on a few character issue guys and a HC that was willing to pull $ out of his pocket to get the most qualified DC.
Again, our defense played better than their defense.

which FAs did you want us to sign? Shockey? I'm not following.
This long rambling post was made to let people see what forward thinking organizations like the Saints are doing compared to what the Texans need to be doing to reach the level of the Saints.
spell it out for me again, what is it that we aren't doing? Mike Bell? c'mon, is that why they went to the Super Bowl?

Sharper? he's only marginally better than Eugene.

Again, our defense performed better than theirs.
It's on McNair to decide if he wants to step up to the plate and bring a winner that the Texans fans deserve,or continue status quo. So far the signs aren't promising. IMHO
Other than preconcieved hatred bred out of bitterness, I can't see why this would be your Opinion.

We are as good as the Saints. We didn't start out that way in 2009, but we've gotten better as the season went on. We're on the right track.. McNair, Kubiak, & Smith have brought winning football to Houston.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
Your looking strictly at the numbers.

I'm talking about philosophies.

2 entirely differenet things.
You're looking at it as, "Everything the Saints did was right" & "Everything the Texans did was wrong"

Our defense was better. The Texan's philosophy produced better results than the Saint's philosophy.

You've got yourself a bad argument, you can't win this one.
 
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