Baldinger: Bob McNair "content with mediocrity"

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by Hardcore Texan

Anything less than a significant upgrade (a proven winner) gives us a lesser chance to be successful next year IMO. I would have not done the extension and told Kubiak, this year is for all the marbles, it's a contract year for you and this team has to get it done or it's game over.

I agree with most everything you said, except how you define definite upgrade.

The main reason I want to keep Kubiak, is that I believe he has built a Helluva team, in a short amount of time. While Cowher may be an upgrade at instilling a certain attitude into a team...... I don't think his in game decisions are a "definite" upgrade. I also don't think he could have built this team as fast as Kubiak (yes, I said as fast) has, so I would quesion how long this team would be successful in the years past 2010.

I believe in my heart-of-hearts, if Kubiak was first given this team in the state it is now, you would have seen that "instant" success "everyone" is looking for.

I can not say with certainty that any other coach would have been able to do what Kubiak has done if they were given this franchise in 2006. Not Payton, definitely not Cowher, not Parcells, no one. For all you literary challenged, that is not to say that Payton or Parcells couldn't have done better....

But for all the people who say the right way to build a team is primarily through the draft, this is what you get... being "smart" in FA... this is what you get.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by Hardcore Texan

Another one was coming out flat against the Jets in the opener and getting man-handled. I was so pissed off about that and lay all that blame on the HC.

I just want to point out the Jets man-handled the Pats the same way in week 2. They man-handled the Titans (a much more physical team than ours) the same way week 3.

I understand we had more time to prepare for them. I'm just saying, Bellichick & Fisher get a pass, because they've won, & been in SuperBowls. I get that. But the point is if Rex Ryan befuddled these two great coaches, how much of a stretch is it to give Kubiak a little slack?

I'm pissed about it too, don't get me wrong. But taken in perspective, it's not as bad as we make it out to be. Rookie Coach or whatever.... Rex Ryans ain't no joke.

[The Pencil Neck]

Originally Posted by HoustonFrog

Sure, but 4-5 years?

This gets back to one of my old points. If you give a guy a few years and all he can get to is a 8-8 or 9-7 record and you ditch him, then you're probably going to take a step back. What that coach does after that, well that's beyond the scope of what I looked at. You might have to swallow a year or two of sub .500 ball like the Rams did with Vermiel. But teams sometimes get into a frenzy of dumping coaches like the Redskins, Lions, the Jets during the 90's, etc., and it's hard to pull yourself up from the pit.

That's why McNair is trying to model himself on the Steelers. It took Cowher a long, long time before he won a SB and he had some years where his teams weren't that good.

Since 1980, most teams have gone 5-6 years without a playoff appearance at least 1 time, some teams for longer. Since we're started as a new franchise, I think that gives us a little more of a grace period. And I think we're making the playoffs next year.

[GP]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

I just want to point out the Jets man-handled the Pats the same way in week 2. They man-handled the Titans (a much more physical team than ours) the same way week 3.

I understand we had more time to prepare for them. I'm just saying, Bellichick & Fisher get a pass, because they've won, & been in SuperBowls. I get that. But the point is if Rex Ryan befuddled these two great coaches, how much of a stretch is it to give Kubiak a little slack?

I'm pissed about it too, don't get me wrong. But taken in perspective, it's not as bad as we make it out to be. Rookie Coach or whatever.... Rex Ryans ain't no joke.

Uh oh.

You just kinda' swerved into what we have been saying, TK. Did you catch what you just did?

You essentially are saying that Rex Ryan befuddled two great coaches.

You're swerving into our territory, TK. In essence, you just stated that Rex Ryan has something going on. Which is what we have said. So that 9-7 record of his, compared to ours, IS a bit different...right?

And it's different because of the leader. The head honcho. Gameday readiness. Smartness to dissect an opponent's schemes and thwart them when it counts the most.

:oops:

[Double Barrel]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

So if the Jets lost that Sunday Night game..... Kubiak earned his extension?

I know my arguments are hard to follow .. but try to see what I'm saying.

Had the Jets lost, we would have made the play-offs, in reality, Kubiak wouldn't have done any better or worse than what he did.....

making the play-offs that way is arbitrary... the Jets making the play-offs was arbitrary.

It wasn't you, but someone said Ryans turned things around..... the Jets got into the play-offs, because Baltimore lost Week 16 to an amazing last second catch in the end-zone. But Rex Ryans' 9-7 is better than Kubiak's 9-7 because Ryans got to the play-offs?

I'm not getting it.

Well, Kubiak earned his extension because he got his extension. All that matters in that regard is what the owner thinks about it.

Now perhaps Baldinger would change his tune if we had made the playoffs...

[HoustonFrog]

Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck

This gets back to one of my old points. If you give a guy a few years and all he can get to is a 8-8 or 9-7 record and you ditch him, then you're probably going to take a step back. What that coach does after that, well that's beyond the scope of what I looked at. You might have to swallow a year or two of sub .500 ball like the Rams did with Vermiel. But teams sometimes get into a frenzy of dumping coaches like the Redskins, Lions, the Jets during the 90's, etc., and it's hard to pull yourself up from the pit.

That's why McNair is trying to model himself on the Steelers. It took Cowher a long, long time before he won a SB and he had some years where his teams weren't that good.

Since 1980, most teams have gone 5-6 years without a playoff appearance at least 1 time, some teams for longer. Since we're started as a new franchise, I think that gives us a little more of a grace period. And I think we're making the playoffs next year.

Took him a long time but he took off running when he got them..he took Knolls last team..7-9 and then went 11-5, 9-7, 12-4, 11-5, 10-6, 11-5..that is alot of goodwill built up. He also drafted like a mother. His only bad stretch was after those first 6 years he had 7-9, 6-10 and then 9-7. He only had one more losing season after that. If Kubes was in the 11-5 range and mistakes from Year 3 were gone, then this subject would be moot. But they aren't, despite what McNair is trying to mdel it after.

[The Pencil Neck]

Originally Posted by HoustonFrog

Took him a long time but he took off running when he got them..he took Knolls last team..7-9 and then went 11-5, 9-7, 12-4, 11-5, 10-6, 11-5..that is alot of goodwill built up. He also drafted like a mother. His only bad stretch was after those first 6 years he had 7-9, 6-10 and then 9-7. He only had one more losing season after that. If Kubes was in the 11-5 range and mistakes from Year 3 were gone, then this subject would be moot. But they aren't, despite what McNair is trying to mdel it after.

He took off running but he got the reputation of a guy who couldn't win the big one. 14 years and lots of AFC championship games lost in his own house and a lost SB. And he inherited a lot of good players from Noll (Nickerson, Woodson, Lloyd and most of his offense as well).

Kubes will get us there. It takes just a little patience.

[Texan_Bill]

Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck

He took off running but he got the reputation of a guy who couldn't win the big one. 14 years and lots of AFC championship games lost in his own house and a lost SB. And he inherited a lot of good players from Noll (Nickerson, Woodson, Lloyd and most of his offense as well).
Kubes will get us there. It takes just a little patience.

I've mentioned that very thing ad naseum.

BTW, with regards to stability of teams that some folks have mentioned:

In the Pirates / Steelers 75 year history 3 coaches have coached well over half of their existence:

Parker 8 seasons
Cowher 15 Seasons
Noll 22 seasons

[HoustonFrog]

Originally Posted by Texan_Bill

I've mentioned that very thing ad naseum.

BTW, with regards to stability of teams that some folks have mentioned:

In the Pirates / Steelers 75 year history 3 coaches have coached well over half of their existence:

Parker 8 seasons
Cowher 15 Seasons
Noll 22 seasons

That is great with the right coaches.

Cowher might have inherited some guys but those guys got Knoll 7-9 and he turned it to 11-5 and kept going. 6 years isn't an anomaly...he kept drafting well and retooling.

I also think in the day you could afford to keep guys. That is why you had Landry, Knoll, Bud, etc. There was no cap and teams could stay together and gel and you kept your core and kept adding. Now you don't keep guys beyond a certain amount of years and you have to produce.

[Texan_Bill]

Originally Posted by HoustonFrog

That is great with the right coaches.

Cowher might have inherited some guys but those guys got Knoll 7-9 and he turned it to 11-5 and kept going. 6 years isn't an anomaly...he kept drafting well and retooling.

I also think in the day you could afford to keep guys. That is why you had Landry, Knoll, Bud, etc. There was no cap and teams could stay together and gel and you kept your core and kept adding. Now you don't keep guys beyond a certain amount of years and you have to produce.

It could be that Noll was burnt out... Who knows? Do you?? If so, I want you picking my lotto numbers.

[Texan_Bill]

P.S.... My non linear equations professor once told me, always account for variable change.
~Ben Campbell

[HoustonFrog]

Originally Posted by Texan_Bill

It could be that Noll was burnt out... Who knows? Do you?? If so, I want you picking my lotto numbers.

No and my numbers haven't worked either. Just the Texas Two Step for a few hundred grand...not being greedy.

[Texan_Bill]

Originally Posted by HoustonFrog

No and my numbers haven't worked either. Just the Texas Two Step for a few hundred grand...not being greedy.

I'd be happy winning $810.85.

Point was we don't know what was going on behind the scenes. Noll was getting way older and the players were, well basically staying young. Maybe they weren't responding to Noll anymore. He was a hard ass. Who's to say?

[ChampionTexan]

Originally Posted by GP

Uh oh.

You just kinda' swerved into what we have been saying, TK. Did you catch what you just did?

You essentially are saying that Rex Ryan befuddled two great coaches.

You're swerving into our territory, TK. In essence, you just stated that Rex Ryan has something going on. Which is what we have said. So that 9-7 record of his, compared to ours, IS a bit different...right?

And it's different because of the leader. The head honcho. Gameday readiness. Smartness to dissect an opponent's schemes and thwart them when it counts the most.

:oops:

At the beginning of the season, The Jets and their D under Ryan were a bit of an unknown. Leaving Kubiak out of the equation for a bit, I'm not going to give Ryan to much credit for being able to pull out a victory as a relative unknown commodity (at least as a head coach) even if it was against two really good coaches. This is kind of like a first-time QB looking like an All-Pro, until there's some tape of him, and that first D-Coordinator figures out how to shut him down. In games 4-10, they lost 6 of 7 games (including 4 division games in a row), 4 of those games were to teams who finished the year below .500, and the only victory in that stretch was over a 5-11 Raiders team. They then won 3 of the next 4 games, but didn't beat a team that finished the year above .500 in any of those four games. They then played the two infamous games against Indy and Cincy to go 9-7, and win the tiebreaker - getting into the playoffs.

And by the way, this motley rag-tag bunch of knuckleheads that Rex took over and coached to a 9-7 had only been able to go 9-7 the year before he got there, meaning he had the exact same record that got the previous coach fired.

I realize the difference between making the playoffs, and not making the playoffs, but ignoring that, I'm not sure I see a big difference between the two regular season records when looked at in a vacuum.

[infantrycak]

Originally Posted by HoustonFrog

Cowher might have inherited some guys but those guys got Knoll 7-9 and he turned it to 11-5 and kept going.

Cowher didn't inherit a great team but he certainly inherited an above average team. Knoll's last year they were running a rookie QB as well. But overall I think Cowher did a good job. But I don't buy into the fire Shottenheimer after 14-2 mentality either.

[Texan_Bill]

Noll's final season				Cowher's first season	
Offensive Starters					Offensive Starters
QB	Neil O'Donnell			QB	Neil O'Donnell*
QB	Bubby Brister			RB	Barry Foster*+
RB	Barry Foster			FB	Merril Hoge
FB	Merril Hoge			WR	Jeff Graham
WR	Louis Lipps			WR	Dwight Stone
WR	Dwight Stone			TE	Adrian Cooper
TE	Eric Green			TE	Eric Green
TE	Adrian Cooper			LT	John Jackson
TE	Mike Mularkey			LG	Duval Love
LT	John Jackson			C	Dermontti Dawson*
LG	Tom Ricketts			RG	Carlton Haselrig*
C	Dermontti Dawson		RT	Tunch Ilkin
RG	Carlton Haselrig		RT	Justin Strzelczyk
RT	Tunch Ilkin				Defensive Starters
	Defensive Starters		LDE	Kenny Davidson
LDE	Aaron Jones			NT	Gerald Williams
LDE	Keith Willis			RDE	Donald Evans
NT	Gerald Williams			LOLB	Jerrol Williams
RDE	Donald Evans			LILB	Hardy Nickerson
LOLB	Bryan Hinkle			RILB	David Little
LILB	Hardy Nickerson			ROLB	Greg Lloyd*
RILB	David Little			LCB	Rod Woodson*+
ROLB	Greg Lloyd*			RCB	D.J. Johnson
LCB	D.J. Johnson			SS	Carnell Lake
RCB	Rod Woodson*			FS	Darren Perry
SS	Carnell Lake				
FS	Thomas Everett

* = Pro Bowl
+ = 1st team All-Pro

[GP]

Originally Posted by ChampionTexan

At the beginning of the season, The Jets and their D under Ryan were a bit of an unknown. Leaving Kubiak out of the equation for a bit, I'm not going to give Ryan to much credit for being able to pull out a victory as a relative unknown commodity (at least as a head coach) even if it was against two really good coaches. This is kind of like a first-time QB looking like an All-Pro, until there's some tape of him, and that first D-Coordinator figures out how to shut him down. In games 4-10, they lost 6 of 7 games (including 4 division games in a row), 4 of those games were to teams who finished the year below .500, and the only victory in that stretch was over a 5-11 Raiders team. They then won 3 of the next 4 games, but didn't beat a team that finished the year above .500 in any of those four games. They then played the two infamous games against Indy and Cincy to go 9-7, and win the tiebreaker - getting into the playoffs.

And by the way, this motley rag-tag bunch of knuckleheads that Rex took over and coached to a 9-7 had only been able to go 9-7 the year before he got there, meaning he had the exact same record that got the previous coach fired.

I realize the difference between making the playoffs, and not making the playoffs, but ignoring that, I'm not sure I see a big difference between the two regular season records when looked at in a vacuum.

My opinion on the Mangini vs. Ryan seasons of 9-7:

Mangini is a FREAK. He's scary. That's why they didn't care that he had a 9-7 record. Out of all the Patriots ex-assistants and coordinators who later became coaches after those Super Bowl wins, Mangini is by far the weirdest and most unpredictable cat out of the bunch. Weiss isn't too far behind, and McDaniels is gaining ground. Crennel? He's the loveable fuzzball that doesn't fit in with the rest of the crew. He's the wheel man.

So I think Mangini got himself fired due to his freakness. And his freakness continued on with the things going down in Cleveland. He might be the only head coach who tries to get more cute than Kubiak.

Rex Ryan found a way to will himself and his rookie QB into position for a playoff berth. When he was reciting his Christmas Wish List during that one presser, I was like "LOL. You are genius. You're essentially telling the Colts and the Bengals that they can protect their star players AND do a good charitable work by laying down for the Jets." Nicely done, Rex.

He's a chip off the old block.

[Joe Texan]

Balsucker can stuff a sock in it. I will not watch him again, And watch when we win in Dallas in February, I hope Marc Vanderqueer and J LO get him back and let me have a word with his ass. I shows that the 610 bunch has no balls when it comes to standing up for the Texans.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by GP

Uh oh.

You just kinda' swerved into what we have been saying, TK. Did you catch what you just did?

You essentially are saying that Rex Ryan befuddled two great coaches.

You're swerving into our territory, TK. In essence, you just stated that Rex Ryan has something going on. Which is what we have said. So that 9-7 record of his, compared to ours, IS a bit different...right?

And it's different because of the leader. The head honcho. Gameday readiness. Smartness to dissect an opponent's schemes and thwart them when it counts the most.

:oops:

If we can agree that Ryans is a good coach.... then we can say that 9-7 isn't a bad thing. They (the Jets) are actually 8-8 but they were given a game. At least 1. Even then, if you think that team is better than they were in 2008 (9-7), then you can see my side of the argument concerning the Texans, despite going 8-8, 8-8, 9-7.

I never said that it's going to take 4 years to be successful if we get a new coach. I think we'll win 10+ games regardless who our coach is in 2010. My position is that we'll win 10+ games in 2011, 2012, 2013, etc... with Kubiak. Regardless what our schedule is, kinda like the Colts.

Not like Sparano ( a good coach no doubt), or Harbaugh, or Smith, or even Payton. Or Ryans? Do you really think the Jets will win more than 9 games next year? I don't.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by HoustonFrog

If Kubes was in the 11-5 range and mistakes from Year 3 were gone, then this subject would be moot. But they aren't, despite what McNair is trying to mdel it after.

True...

True...

I understand some thinking our standards are low, because we keep refering to the 2-14 team that Kubiak took over.... but it is what it is.

I agree whole heartedly, that the Texans should have easily won 10 games, & I'm very, very disappointed that we didn't.

I can see(understand) the POV, that it was Kubiak's fault that we lost those 7 games. How much credit does he get for losing 6 of those by 7 points or less? Which is an improvement over what where we were.

Again, I'm still upset, and disappointed we didn't win just one of those games. I'm not trying to make that look like success.

To me, that looks like progress.... just like the progress we've seen the last three years.