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Old 09-28-2009   #1
eriadoc
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Default Talent Comparison

Some caller on the radio this morning asked a question that I thought worth pursuing. How many 1st round picks do the Jets have playing on their defense? The question itself isn't so great, but it begs the further question - what is the talent level of the Texans defense, as compared to other teams? And even further, why is it that other teams can achieve a turnaround that our team cannot seem to?

I could probably try and figure out which teams have had a good turnaround, and then go look at the depth chart for each, but I have homework to do, so I just looked at the Jets. I have to say, the results don't paint the Texans in a positive light.

1st round draft picks on defense for Jets
'08 Vernon Gholston (starter)
'07 Darrelle Revis (starter)
'04 Vilma (no longer with team)
'03 DeWayne Robertson (no longer with team)
'02 Bryan Thomas (starter)
'00 Shaun Ellis (starter)
'00 John Abraham (no longer with team)

2nd rounders
'07 David Harris (starter)
'05 Justin Miller (no longer with team)
'03 Victor Hobson (no longer with team)
'02 Jon McGraw (no longer with team)

So they have four first rounders and one second rounder that they drafted playing for them. So do we. Our guys are Mario, Ok0ye, Robinson, Cushing, and Ryans. I don't know enough about the Jets team to know whether they have been happy with the play of all those guys before Rex Ryan came aboard, but we're generally unhappy with Ok0ye, and unsure about Robinson, at best. That leads to a couple conclusions.

First, their FA acquisitions are probably working out better for them than ours have. I'd take Kris Jenkins over Antonio Weaver. I'd take Lito Shepard over Jacques Reeves. I'd take Bart Scott over anyone else you want to throw in there.

Second, they haven't hit on their defensive draft picks any better than we have, so they must be getting better production from their second day picks.

Finally, I think it's evident that the coaching is not up to snuff. Since Kubiak has brought in guy after guy after guy, I think the methodology is flawed, and as long as Kubiak is here, it's not going to be fixed.

I'd be interested in teams like the Falcons and Dolphins, but I'm sure the similarities exist.
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Old 09-28-2009   #2
nero THE zero
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Default Re: Talent Comparison

The difference in talent between the two teams is almost negligible when compared with the gaping difference in coaching. The Jets have one of the best defensive coaches in football coaching them, we have one of the worst, literally.

While we have holes at DT and S, I don't think it's a stretch to think that we could have a top 10 defense by year's end with a different coach manning the defense.
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Old 09-28-2009   #3
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Default Re: Talent Comparison

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Originally Posted by nero THE zero View Post
The difference in talent between the two teams is almost negligible when compared with the gaping difference in coaching. The Jets have one of the best defensive coaches in football coaching them, we have one of the worst, literally.

While we have holes at DT and S, I don't think it's a stretch to think that we could have a top 10 defense by year's end with a different coach manning the defense.
I don't know what kind of coach could succeed here. Rex Ryan's pressure D would not work here with the porous secondary we have.
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Old 09-28-2009   #4
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Default Re: Talent Comparison

Quote:
Originally Posted by eriadoc View Post
Some caller on the radio this morning asked a question that I thought worth pursuing. How many 1st round picks do the Jets have playing on their defense? The question itself isn't so great, but it begs the further question - what is the talent level of the Texans defense, as compared to other teams? And even further, why is it that other teams can achieve a turnaround that our team cannot seem to?

I could probably try and figure out which teams have had a good turnaround, and then go look at the depth chart for each, but I have homework to do, so I just looked at the Jets. I have to say, the results don't paint the Texans in a positive light.

1st round draft picks on defense for Jets
'08 Vernon Gholston (starter)
'07 Darrelle Revis (starter)
'04 Vilma (no longer with team)
'03 DeWayne Robertson (no longer with team)
'02 Bryan Thomas (starter)
'00 Shaun Ellis (starter)
'00 John Abraham (no longer with team)

2nd rounders
'07 David Harris (starter)
'05 Justin Miller (no longer with team)
'03 Victor Hobson (no longer with team)
'02 Jon McGraw (no longer with team)

So they have four first rounders and one second rounder that they drafted playing for them. So do we. Our guys are Mario, Ok0ye, Robinson, Cushing, and Ryans. I don't know enough about the Jets team to know whether they have been happy with the play of all those guys before Rex Ryan came aboard, but we're generally unhappy with Ok0ye, and unsure about Robinson, at best. That leads to a couple conclusions.

First, their FA acquisitions are probably working out better for them than ours have. I'd take Kris Jenkins over Antonio Weaver. I'd take Lito Shepard over Jacques Reeves. I'd take Bart Scott over anyone else you want to throw in there.

Second, they haven't hit on their defensive draft picks any better than we have, so they must be getting better production from their second day picks.

Finally, I think it's evident that the coaching is not up to snuff. Since Kubiak has brought in guy after guy after guy, I think the methodology is flawed, and as long as Kubiak is here, it's not going to be fixed.

I'd be interested in teams like the Falcons and Dolphins, but I'm sure the similarities exist.
They had 2 things in place before ryan ever got there that we've never had: a D-line that can actually get pressure by themselves in Jenkins and Pace (another 1st round proven talent), & Ellis. also a starter quality FS in Rhodes. Nevertheless, they weren't all that bad on defense last year either; middle of the pack & had Jenkins not been slowed a little with injury issues, they might've been better.

your assessment is somewhat flawed in that you're using draft status as evidence that they are good; or maybe i'm just understanding you wrong? The change in philosophy, & the acquistion of Scott & Leohnard helped push them over the top.

You're right though, they are hitting on late rounders & FA's better than we are. I can only think of 1 late rounder on defense that kubes has hit on since he's been here....Diles. Everyone else has been dookie.

Last edited by Mr teX; 09-28-2009 at 12:59 PM.
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Old 09-28-2009   #5
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Default Re: Talent Comparison

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr teX View Post
You left off Calvin Pace another 1st round guy, nevertheless, your assessment is somewhat flawed in that you're using draft status as evidence that they are good; or maybe i'm just understanding you wrong? 2nd, Ryan wasn't there last year & they weren't all that bad on defense last year either; middle of the pack.
Yeah, I probably wasn't as clear as I should have been. Their draft position is not evidence that they are good, but the team obviously expects 1st and 2nd rounders to be starters. Their success rate at accomplishing that was really the only comparison that the draft position was reported for. The Jets have drafted ten defensive guys in the first two rounds since the Texans have been in existence, counting Pace, and the Texans have drafted whatever they've drafted. The underlying questions are:

How good/talented are the guys we're drafting, really?
How well are we hitting those picks?
What kind of production are other teams getting from their later round picks that we aren't?
Is FA really the difference in personnel for the Texans vs. teams like the Jets, Dolphins, Falcons, Saints ... whoever?
If you look at our personnel, should we really be that bad?
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Old 09-28-2009   #6
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Default Re: Talent Comparison

Quote:
Originally Posted by eriadoc View Post
Yeah, I probably wasn't as clear as I should have been. Their draft position is not evidence that they are good, but the team obviously expects 1st and 2nd rounders to be starters. Their success rate at accomplishing that was really the only comparison that the draft position was reported for. The Jets have drafted ten defensive guys in the first two rounds since the Texans have been in existence, counting Pace, and the Texans have drafted whatever they've drafted. The underlying questions are:

How good/talented are the guys we're drafting, really?
How well are we hitting those picks?
What kind of production are other teams getting from their later round picks that we aren't?
Is FA really the difference in personnel for the Texans vs. teams like the Jets, Dolphins, Falcons, Saints ... whoever?
If you look at our personnel, should we really be that bad?

Well, just scanning the jets roster, they've added 5 very productive & capable starters through FA in Scott, Leohnard, Sheppard, Jenkins & Pace i believe over the last 2 years. a good portion of the rest they drafted (Harris, Rhodes, Thomas, Gholston & Revis). So maybe FA is where we're losing the battle!
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