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Old 09-23-2009   #1
silvrhand
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Default CJ Long runs - the thread of all threads

Ok,

I've been reading some of the threads of late and we all want to seem to lay the blame on the two long runs of CJ on the secondary. I hate to tell you but that's far from the truth. Both runs our DL put themselves out of the plays, and allowed a linemen to release down the field cause they didn't have to block their assignment, which in turn created a OL running down the field releasing not only into the second level, but eventually into the secondary.

To keep it in perspective, I would have to venture the following:

- you will find it very hard to find a safety that can take on an OL in the open field and still make the tackle of a very talented back behind him.
- you are not going to find many safeties in the NFL draft that are going to walk down Chris Johnson from behind, he ran a true 4.25 at the combine.

These are the results of the safeties that ran the 40 yard dash this year:

Clemons, Chris 4.41
Bruton, David 4.46
Delmas, Louis 4.50
Spillman, C.J. 4.50
Chung, Patrick 4.51
Moore, William 4.51
Vaughn, Chip 4.51
Greene, Courtney 4.52

I broke down both runs here:

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/sho...1&postcount=46

Ultimately it's a TEAM failure as the runs were failures at multiple levels, the first level, the second level, and eventually the 3rd level. Discuss, and we can stop beating up the other 5 threads about the runs and how bad our secondary sucked cause we couldn't stop it.



Ok I feel better now getting that off my chest.. /puts on flame suit.
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Old 09-23-2009   #2
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Default Re: CJ Long runs - the thread of all threads

great breakdown of the plays in your link, and you're right that it's not all the fault of our db's. i think the secondary is getting a fairly accurate amount of blame however. mccain gets blown up in the first run, wilson overruns both plays, busing never sees the second run, and obviously SOMEBODY should've been covering chris johnson on his pass reception. there's plenty of blame to go around for every one of those plays from head coach all the way down to the defensive line, but on a pair of 3rd and longs (18 and 11 respectively) the safeties should be in position to keep those plays from happening. that's where both dunta and kubiak have talked about missed assignments ... not missed tackles or missed plays, but being out of position and not recognizing the play.
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Old 09-23-2009   #3
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Default Re: CJ Long runs - the thread of all threads

I agree 100% with both of your posts and the post you linked. But stud safeties do blow up run plays in the backfield sometimes. I cant remember a Texan safety ever stopping a run play in the backfield.

Im going to stop now because I havent had any caffine yet.
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Old 09-23-2009   #4
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Default Re: CJ Long runs - the thread of all threads

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Originally Posted by Bubbajwp View Post
I agree 100% with both of your posts and the post you linked. But stud safeties do blow up run plays in the backfield sometimes. I cant remember a Texan safety ever stopping a run play in the backfield.

Im going to stop now because I havent had any caffine yet.
I don't think I've ever seen our safeties roll up to be that aggressive cause we never have setup for it. Sure is the back runs horizontally it's great but you have to have the scheme setup to allow the SS/FS to roam more and cheap up to the line of scrimmage, we currently don't do that.

You have to go see Pittsburgh play to see that kind of scheme, from one of the best DC's in the game.
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Old 09-23-2009   #5
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Default Re: CJ Long runs - the thread of all threads

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Originally Posted by Scooter View Post
the safeties should be in position to keep those plays from happening. that's where both dunta and kubiak have talked about missed assignments ... not missed tackles or missed plays, but being out of position and not recognizing the play.
This is where I think most people are going to be dissappointed even if we go out and get a stud safety. You put an OL linemen in the open field, with a RB behind him against one safety and you are going to lose that battle 90% of the time. A good RB will setup the block for the OL and he'll just cut the other direction.

Both of the long runs we had an OL running free into the secondary leading downfield blocks on our safeties. This is problematic as our safeties were in the position to at least attempt to make the tackle, but were sealed/blocked by the tackle/guard that got a basic free release and headed downfield.

One the second run you mentioned Busing: He was manned up on his receiver, a draw is going to do exactly that get him out of the play cause his main responsibility is purely to make sure he's covering the receiver. The real pain on the second run was our DE, and Amobi that got blown completely out of the play about 5 yards. At first I thought maybe he got caught in a stunt, but the more I look at it the more it looks like he just got destroyed. Hell the hole was so big the pulling guard swung around and was "LOOKING" for someone to block, which he couldn't find and eventually went towards the safety which CJ then setup behind him and it was off to the races.
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Old 09-23-2009   #6
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Default Re: CJ Long runs - the thread of all threads

McCain is like a buck 70. He is a liability on the ground, for now. Once we get Reeves out there, it should give Gibbs some flexibility to move guys around.
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Old 09-23-2009   #7
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Default Re: CJ Long runs - the thread of all threads

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Originally Posted by silvrhand1 View Post
2nd long run: (nickel/man coverage?)
- #93 ran upfield again bit on the draw
- #91 Amobi gets blown out but looks like they were stunting?
They brought a back and OL guy from the other side. Bullman is #93. I don't think he bit on the draw. I think that is a factor of going away from read and react. He just fired off into a outside move from the snap. He was down and back so fast he actually had an arm around CJ's ankle but he was able to step out of it. It was one of those hairs breadth things from being a 1 yd play instead of a 91 yd play.

Just as an aside, if you saw Darren Sproles' 81 yd TD it was almost a mirror of the reception TD made by CJ - just not accounted for by anyone on the Baltimore D.
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Old 09-23-2009   #8
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Default Re: CJ Long runs - the thread of all threads

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Originally Posted by Bubbajwp View Post
I agree 100% with both of your posts and the post you linked. But stud safeties do blow up run plays in the backfield sometimes. I cant remember a Texan safety ever stopping a run play in the backfield.

Im going to stop now because I havent had any caffine yet.
Yeah, not many guys catch CJ from behind. The good safeties stop him alot earlier. We need new safeties, but we need guys who react to the ball better. On the long yardage, we put too many people 5 yards from the LOS and left too much riding on our safeties.
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Old 09-23-2009   #9
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Default Re: CJ Long runs - the thread of all threads

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Originally Posted by silvrhand1 View Post
This is where I think most people are going to be dissappointed even if we go out and get a stud safety. You put an OL linemen in the open field, with a RB behind him against one safety and you are going to lose that battle 90% of the time. A good RB will setup the block for the OL and he'll just cut the other direction.

Both of the long runs we had an OL running free into the secondary leading downfield blocks on our safeties. This is problematic as our safeties were in the position to at least attempt to make the tackle, but were sealed/blocked by the tackle/guard that got a basic free release and headed downfield.

One the second run you mentioned Busing: He was manned up on his receiver, a draw is going to do exactly that get him out of the play cause his main responsibility is purely to make sure he's covering the receiver. The real pain on the second run was our DE, and Amobi that got blown completely out of the play about 5 yards. At first I thought maybe he got caught in a stunt, but the more I look at it the more it looks like he just got destroyed. Hell the hole was so big the pulling guard swung around and was "LOOKING" for someone to block, which he couldn't find and eventually went towards the safety which CJ then setup behind him and it was off to the races.
Yea, it doesn't look like a stunt to me. If you notice where DeMeco blitzes, it is between the two defensive tackles, and the other defensive tackle and Mario just rush straight ahead. This is significant because, as you pointed out, Okoye tries an inside move. This gives the OL the ability to start pushing Okoye to the inside, and out of the play completely.

My question is, why is Okoye going for an inside move? He has plenty of help on that side, 1 DE, 1 DT and 1 LB. On the outside of Okoye is 1 DE. It seems like a pretty stupid football decision. I'm starting to think that either Okoye doesn't understand basic football concepts, or he is so overmatched strength wise that he has to try to go around a lineman rather than hold his ground on a straight forward rush.
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Old 09-23-2009   #10
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Default Re: CJ Long runs - the thread of all threads

My question is, as a LB, shouldn't Cushing be reading his key, which is the RG.
His responsibility is the weakside A gap.

When the Guard pulled, shouldn't he do a better job getting off the blocker to the other side, instead of up the middle?
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Old 09-23-2009   #11
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Default Re: CJ Long runs - the thread of all threads

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
My question is, as a LB, shouldn't Cushing be reading his key, which is the RG.
His responsibility is the weakside A gap.

When the Guard pulled, shouldn't he do a better job getting off the blocker to the other side, instead of up the middle?
Cushing just can't leave the cutback lane and forget about the cutback lane, Ryans had that side but we blitzed right into a draw, I think if Amobi doesn't get blown across the ball the play is ok, but he was the key that allowed the guard to come aorund and release upfield which took out the safety as well.

And then CJ has nothing but speed..
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Old 09-23-2009   #12
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Default Re: CJ Long runs - the thread of all threads

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Originally Posted by silvrhand1 View Post
Cushing just can't leave the cutback lane and forget about the cutback lane, Ryans had that side but we blitzed right into a draw, I think if Amobi doesn't get blown across the ball the play is ok, but he was the key that allowed the guard to come aorund and release upfield which took out the safety as well.

And then CJ has nothing but speed..
I'm asking about assignment's wise for a LB.
We all knew Amobi was bad on that play.
And Bulman perhaps with problem on technique.
But I want to know what a LB is supposed to do in this situation.

He clearly saw the LG pulling. Isn't that his key?
He also saw that Mario and had already taken care of the cutback lane.
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Old 09-23-2009   #13
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Default Re: CJ Long runs - the thread of all threads

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Originally Posted by silvrhand1 View Post
I don't think I've ever seen our safeties roll up to be that aggressive cause we never have setup for it. Sure is the back runs horizontally it's great but you have to have the scheme setup to allow the SS/FS to roam more and cheap up to the line of scrimmage, we currently don't do that.

You have to go see Pittsburgh play to see that kind of scheme, from one of the best DC's in the game.
We did use Jason Simmons, Earl, and CC Brown occasionally.
Earl had 4 TFLs in 06 and CC had 3 in 07.
Ferguson had 1 last year.
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Old 09-23-2009   #14
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Default Re: CJ Long runs - the thread of all threads

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post

He clearly saw the LG pulling. Isn't that his key?
He also saw that Mario and had already taken care of the cutback lane.
Per my experience in both playing LB, and SS, the backside LB will pursue inside out chasing the player towards the sideline. When the guard pulls to your left you should know immediately it's a run, sometimes you can shoot the gap and try to get the player in the backfield but that's really tough.

The second typical option is to flow down the line of scrimmage and attack from inside out towards the sideline. The outside pursuit should turn the RB back into you if he tries to go outside. The center had an easy block since he was already on the left of Cushing, all he had to do was step out and get his helmet out in front of Cushing, after that you can fight off the block, but ultimately you are pretty much sealed off.

Now looking at that when the center initiated his block on Cushing to me it looked like Cushing sort of just don't want to say quit, but man it sure didn't look like he was trying to fight too hard to get around the block, but then again the center got out quick and had actually turned to seal him, aka not much of a chance to get around him.

That my .02 of the play.
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Old 09-23-2009   #15
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Default Re: CJ Long runs - the thread of all threads

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Originally Posted by silvrhand1 View Post
Per my experience in both playing LB, and SS, the backside LB will pursue inside out chasing the player towards the sideline. When the guard pulls to your left you should know immediately it's a run, sometimes you can shoot the gap and try to get the player in the backfield but that's really tough.

The second typical option is to flow down the line of scrimmage and attack from inside out towards the sideline. The outside pursuit should turn the RB back into you if he tries to go outside. The center had an easy block since he was already on the left of Cushing, all he had to do was step out and get his helmet out in front of Cushing, after that you can fight off the block, but ultimately you are pretty much sealed off.

Now looking at that when the center initiated his block on Cushing to me it looked like Cushing sort of just don't want to say quit, but man it sure didn't look like he was trying to fight too hard to get around the block, but then again the center got out quick and had actually turned to seal him, aka not much of a chance to get around him.

That my .02 of the play.
It looks to me he needs to fight harder to get off the block to the other side (toward the sideline).

Another thing is that it seems like we had a D-play call where both Mario and Smith slanting inside. On the other side, we had Okoye and Bulman also slanting inside. In this particular play called, when Cushing saw the Guard pull, do they coach you to flow directly to the outside?

It could be a run or it could be a screen pass.
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Old 09-23-2009   #16
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Default Re: CJ Long runs - the thread of all threads

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It looks to me he needs to fight harder to get off the block to the other side (toward the sideline).

Another thing is that it seems like we had a D-play call where both Mario and Smith slanting inside. On the other side, we had Okoye and Bulman also slanting inside. In this particular play called, when Cushing saw the Guard pull, do they coach you to flow directly to the outside?

It could be a run or it could be a screen pass.
I agree it doesn't look like he fought very hard, but again I'm not on the field and haven't seen Cushing on film/TV enough to know if he looked tired or not. So for now I won't judge.

As for the other side if they were on an inside slant Bulman sure fooled me, and why would they inside slant Amodi into the same gap that Ryans was blitzing? I could see slanting on the other side, maybe when the titans lineup with the offset back they have some tendencies that made us slant on that backside?

As for the guard pulling it depends on the player, some backs you can chase down through the gap and make a play in the backfield, I doubt this is a very effective thing to do in the NFL, as most backs you won't catch from behind unless you've got some insane motor skills. Typically if you are on the side to where the guard is pulling you blow him up and try to stuff him through his inside shoulder and blow him up into the backfield. You used to see this very clearly when the redskins would run the counter-trey cause it was on the outside defensive end, his best bet would be to blow up the guy and stuff him causing the back to try to bounce laterally outside and then let the LB's chase him down from the inside -> out with containment coming from the safety/CB.

On the backside my job was always to shadow the guard flow with the play and watch for the cutback lane, and make sure you clean up any missed tackles, and if the play busts open hopefully you take an angle soon enough to get down the field a bit more to try to cut the RB off.
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Old 09-23-2009   #17
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Default Re: CJ Long runs - the thread of all threads

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I agree it doesn't look like he fought very hard, but again I'm not on the field and haven't seen Cushing on film/TV enough to know if he looked tired or not. So for now I won't judge.

As for the other side if they were on an inside slant Bulman sure fooled me, and why would they inside slant Amodi into the same gap that Ryans was blitzing? I could see slanting on the other side, maybe when the titans lineup with the offset back they have some tendencies that made us slant on that backside?

As for the guard pulling it depends on the player, some backs you can chase down through the gap and make a play in the backfield, I doubt this is a very effective thing to do in the NFL, as most backs you won't catch from behind unless you've got some insane motor skills. Typically if you are on the side to where the guard is pulling you blow him up and try to stuff him through his inside shoulder and blow him up into the backfield. You used to see this very clearly when the redskins would run the counter-trey cause it was on the outside defensive end, his best bet would be to blow up the guy and stuff him causing the back to try to bounce laterally outside and then let the LB's chase him down from the inside -> out with containment coming from the safety/CB.

On the backside my job was always to shadow the guard flow with the play and watch for the cutback lane, and make sure you clean up any missed tackles, and if the play busts open hopefully you take an angle soon enough to get down the field a bit more to try to cut the RB off.
Thanks much!
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Old 09-24-2009   #18
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Default Re: CJ Long runs - the thread of all threads

http://www.mcall.com/sports/football...,2518491.story

Quote:
He became the first player in NFL history to rush for a touchdown of longer than 90 yards, another for more than 50 yards, and a TD catch longer than 60 yards. That earned a request from the Pro Football Hall of Fame for his shoes from that game, with the cleats shipped to Canton on Wednesday.
well our defense made him famous
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Old 09-24-2009   #19
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Default Re: CJ Long runs - the thread of all threads

Why don't we go and get some good DT? We don't need great ones. Just good ones enough to keep there assignments and hard for offensive lineman to block.
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