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Old 08-10-2009   #121
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Originally Posted by Runner View Post
Well, when I'm wrong I like to be wrong in a spectacular fashion.

I now believe Dunta probably did turn down some form of "Gamble-like" money. I don't know about terms, but $20M+ guaranteed wouldn't surprise me. To review other positions based on this assumption:

Should he have taken the long term deal - yes!

Is he a bad person - no!

Is he over-evaluating his value - probably. I don't know what he could get as a free agent.

Is he a bad cornerback - no!

Would his presence this year help the team on the field - yes!

Lockerroom cancer or defensive leader - defensive leader.

Should the Texans cut him - no.

Do I still see fault in Rick Smith - yes.
Hard to argue any of this.

I'm still wondering if this is all posturing or if he really does / Does NOT want to be part of the Texans for the long-term. He says he does, but there's really no way to tell at this point. I still find it to be very non-coincidental that he changed agents right before all of this went down.
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Old 08-10-2009   #122
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Originally Posted by Runner View Post
Well, when I'm wrong I like to be wrong in a spectacular fashion.

I now believe Dunta probably did turn down some form of "Gamble-like" money. I don't know about terms, but $20M+ guaranteed wouldn't surprise me. To review other positions based on this assumption:

Should he have taken the long term deal - yes!

Is he a bad person - no!

Is he over-evaluating his value - probably. I don't know what he could get as a free agent.

Is he a bad cornerback - no!

Would his presence this year help the team on the field - yes!

Lockerroom cancer or defensive leader - defensive leader.

Should the Texans cut him - no.

Do I still see fault in Rick Smith - yes.
My answers to your questions:

Should he have taken the long term deal - probably, unless there was something really weird in it

Is he a bad person - no!

Is he over-evaluating his value - likely

Is he a bad cornerback - don't know. I don't even think he knows how he could play on the field. We do know he is more likely than some to reinjure that leg because a previous hamstring injury is a risk factor for future injuries

Would his presence this year help the team on the field - don't know. Probably as a body if he stays healthy. Don't know if he would be better than a young player who could develop. Don't know what legs he has left--he's talking a big game but who knows.

Lockerroom cancer or defensive leader - can he be both? I don't think he has good judgment, and I'm sure he is grumpy about how he was treated. He's not acting like a leader. Julius Peppers was a captain last year, had a dispute with the team, but then eventually signed the tender and got to camp timely.

Should the Texans cut him - no. They franchised him so that they could get some value from him in some form.

Do I still see fault in Rick Smith - Likely. Smoke and fire and all that. How much fault is hard to assess with what we know.
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Old 08-10-2009   #123
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

What fault do you guys see with Rick Smith in these negociations?

He's just making sure the Texans get some value for Dunta when he leaves.
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Old 08-10-2009   #124
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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What fault do you guys see with Rick Smith in these negociations?

He's just making sure the Texans get some value for Dunta when he leaves.
True, I have a hard time blaming RS for managing this team. Of course there could be some horrible decisions that he'd made, but since I have no knowledge of these he's innocent until proven otherwise.

One thing is certain, I'll much rather have a GM that screws up once in a while, than a GM that continously throws big money after suspect talent.
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Old 08-10-2009   #125
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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True, I have a hard time blaming RS for managing this team. Of course there could be some horrible decisions that he'd made, but since I have no knowledge of these he's innocent until proven otherwise.

One thing is certain, I'll much rather have a GM that screws up once in a while, than a GM that continously throws big money after suspect talent.

"Not signing" players protects the team from over overpaying suspect talent as has been stated. However, the GM is also responsible for locking up good talent for the long term - "not signing" players doesn't help there. I believe that his personality and nogotiating style may hinder some negotiations.
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Old 08-10-2009   #126
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

I dunno. I don't think there are many teams out there who haven't faced this problem before. I should say "yet." This is a sticking point of the CBA and both sides are working through it. I'm not concerned. I think he'll be there when the regular season comes around, one way or the other.

I don't really care if Dunta wants to be here or not. I think he'll show up.
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Old 08-10-2009   #127
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

Perhaps, as I said earlier, this is a quiet commentary by Texans management that they don't think Dunta is "good talent for the long term." They view him as being OUR player this year, with a chance to review his skills and then proceed in one of two directions: Re-sign him for a long-term deal, or tag him again and seek trade value. The t-e-a-m holds the cards. Not Dunta; not even if Dunta runs his mouth and fires all of his guns at once.

I think Dunta is a very high-octane, emotionally-driven guy. It shows on the field, because he plays with a lot of heart and is a leader of others. You have to be wired pretty hot in order to be his size, play defense, and tackle the way he does.

He doesn't mind speaking his mind, as seen in the David Carr situation. And as we're seeing with his own situation.

I've hear that Bill Belichick is a pretty hard person to deal with. I bet there's few Patriots fans who have an argument with how abrasive and unbending he has been with players. When you're heading in the right direction, it's hard to argue against it.

I personally think we're heading in the right direction.

Of course, THAT opens a whole new topic that's got about 40 pages on it already.

So basically, the Dunta discussion around here--for the most part--does center upon whether Rick Smith and the rest of the FO are "good," "questionable," or "sketchy" in our eyes.
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Old 08-10-2009   #128
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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"Not signing" players protects the team from over overpaying suspect talent as has been stated. However, the GM is also responsible for locking up good talent for the long term - "not signing" players doesn't help there. I believe that his personality and nogotiating style may hinder some negotiations.
That's what everyone is missing here. It strategically benefits none of the parties involved to play hardball. As i said in another thread, forcing dunta back just b/c "you can" doesn't preclude him from coming back and being a disruption in the locker room all season long so why even chance that? Especially if it's playoffs or bust this year.

The more & more i look at this the more i think it's the texans FO that's not handling it the right way. Hell if they don't think he's worth more than what they're willing to give him, just let him go; dont take the chance of this guy destroying what could be a banner year for the franchise.
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Old 08-10-2009   #129
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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That's what everyone is missing here. It strategically benefits none of the parties involved to play hardball. As i said in another thread, forcing dunta back just b/c "you can" doesn't preclude him from coming back and being a disruption in the locker room all season long so why even chance that? Especially if it's playoffs or bust this year.

The more & more i look at this the more i think it's the texans FO that's not handling it the right way. Hell if they don't think he's worth more than what they're willing to give him, just let him go; dont take the chance of this guy destroying what could be a banner year for the franchise.
You might be right, but I think this team has outgrown Dunta.

As much as the guy was a leader, he's begun to believe his own hype a little too much. He feels slighted, and he thinks he can pull the same stunt on Rick Smith that he pulled on David Carr.

The only problem is that I think McNair is solidly behind Smith & Kubiak. I really think McNair feels he's got his dynasty staff lined up, at least the two big pieces: Smith (GM) and Kubiak (HC).

And Dunta is left on the outside, thinking he can still influence things when that era is so over and done with. It's a new day, and I think Dunta is on the outer edges of it. On the outside looking in, so to speak.

I think he's actually got enough salt in him to hold out the whole year. I wouldn't put it past him. And Smith isn't going to cave on this situation. It's a staring contest, and neither will blink.
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Old 08-10-2009   #130
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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My answers to your questions:

Should he have taken the long term deal - probably, unless there was something really weird in it

Is he a bad person - no!

Is he over-evaluating his value - likely

Is he a bad cornerback - don't know. I don't even think he knows how he could play on the field. We do know he is more likely than some to reinjure that leg because a previous hamstring injury is a risk factor for future injuries

Would his presence this year help the team on the field - don't know. Probably as a body if he stays healthy. Don't know if he would be better than a young player who could develop. Don't know what legs he has left--he's talking a big game but who knows.

Lockerroom cancer or defensive leader - can he be both? I don't think he has good judgment, and I'm sure he is grumpy about how he was treated. He's not acting like a leader. Julius Peppers was a captain last year, had a dispute with the team, but then eventually signed the tender and got to camp timely.

Should the Texans cut him - no. They franchised him so that they could get some value from him in some form.

Do I still see fault in Rick Smith - Likely. Smoke and fire and all that. How much fault is hard to assess with what we know.
I agree 100%...you should write a blog or something.

I just want this deal done...we are a better team with him...the Texans need to gain momentum and that starts in TC. I just want it over with and the season to start...hopefully with #23 on the field.
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Old 08-10-2009   #131
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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You might be right, but I think this team has outgrown Dunta.

As much as the guy was a leader, he's begun to believe his own hype a little too much. He feels slighted, and he thinks he can pull the same stunt on Rick Smith that he pulled on David Carr.

The only problem is that I think McNair is solidly behind Smith & Kubiak. I really think McNair feels he's got his dynasty staff lined up, at least the two big pieces: Smith (GM) and Kubiak (HC).

And Dunta is left on the outside, thinking he can still influence things when that era is so over and done with. It's a new day, and I think Dunta is on the outer edges of it. On the outside looking in, so to speak.

I think he's actually got enough salt in him to hold out the whole year. I wouldn't put it past him. And Smith isn't going to cave on this situation. It's a staring contest, and neither will blink.
McNair wants nothing to do with this in my opinion b/c he's always been a hands off owner unlike that mannequin upstate. I think this is mostly Smith's call & Kubiak is backing him up.......for now. But as this crap runs closer to the season, i think kubes is going to get more vocal about getting Dunta in camp b/c i don't think he's quite ready to go full bore with Molden, McCain or any of the other guys.

Again for all the "what he's worth" & "declining" talk, those years, our whole team was terrible, especially defense b/c there wasn't any pass rush to speak of. Considering what he showed at 85% last year & the hopeful idea that our pass rush will be the best he's played with since his rookie year (which was also his best year) i think he's worth a gamble and i think that if both sides display a little bit of trust in each other (promise him no franchise tag in exchange for him giving the FO the option to match) i think in the end it could work out.

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Old 08-10-2009   #132
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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McNair wants nothing to do with this in my opinion b/c he's always been a hands off owner unlike that mannequin upstate. I think this is mostly Smith's call & Kubiak is backing him up.......for now. But as this crap runs closer to the season, i think kubes is going to get more vocal about getting Dunta in camp b/c i don't think he's quite ready to go full bore with Molden, McCain or any of the other guys.

Again for all the "what he's worth" & "declining" talk, those years, our whole team was terrible, especially defense b/c there wasn't any pass rush to speak of. Considering what he showed at 85% last year & the hopeful idea that our pass rush will be the best he's played with since his rookie year (which was also his best year) i think he's worth a gamble and i think that if both sides display a little bit of trust in each other (promise him no franchise tag in exchange for him giving the FO the option to match) i think in the end it could work out.
I think Kubes is quite willing to wait a couple more weeks to see how his CB roster shakes out.
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Old 08-10-2009   #133
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

i'm curious what people would be saying right now if Smith had managed to sign Robinson to top 5 money, Ryans to top 2 money and Daniels to top 2 money. I wonder where that would leave us cap wise. (I know it's impossible to know). But I am curious how people expected this to be handled.

I think this team has massive question marks ahead because we appear to have many up and coming players as well as two valid "superstars". All those guys have to get payed. It's unlikely that we will be able to pay them all.

One of my concerns is that it appears that we tried to sign all three guys. I feel like the front office feels like we're at a point where it would be worth it to over pay some of these guys just to solidify some of the new found leadership that we have.

Smith has a very VERY big challenge ahead of him. We are one of the youngest teams in the league. We had a very succesful draft a few years ago and all those guys are going to be due a payday at or around the same time. We've been fairly successful in FA with guys like Walter, Davis Meyers etc.. Guys like Walter will have earned a payday.

Pitts, Breisel, Slaton, Schaub, Walter, Jones, DelJuan, MARIO, RYANS...

all have paydays coming in their future.

on top of that Smith has the added uncertainty of the CBA looming. All the front offices have a big challenge ahead but I think our team is in a very peculiar situation because of the amount of young talent that potentially could earn a payday.

We're going to loose good players. As Texans, this is totally new for us. I would hope that we follow in the footsteps of teams like the Steelers and Patriots who traditionally dont pay everybody and have constant turn over but have enough consistency in their front office scouting as well as in the coaching staff that they are able to continue to draft and sign FA's that are a good value that allow them to continue to produce winning football and still lock in a 100 million dollar contract here and there.

I would expect this front office to pay out handsomely for Andre Johnson, Mario Williams, Matt Schaub and (probably) Demeco Ryans. I would not expect them to pay out the kind of deals that some of these guys are going to ask for because it's not smart to do so.

I expect them to offer incentive based contracts and frequently be prepared for high turnover.

Everything suggests that they are going about this the right way. As scary as it is for us, it would appear that we are following in the footsteps of some great, great organizations.


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Old 08-10-2009   #134
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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"Not signing" players protects the team from over overpaying suspect talent as has been stated. However, the GM is also responsible for locking up good talent for the long term - "not signing" players doesn't help there. I believe that his personality and nogotiating style may hinder some negotiations.
Signing players of suspect talent might hurt the team in the long run too, cap-wise.

Hmmm, personally I'll rather see the occational player leave than seeing the team dishing out alot of $ on maintaining on more than just the absolute top players.

Im at the point where Im just trying to spin this into a win-win in my own head. If we sign DR then cool, more skill in our secondary. If we dont then good, we'll have 10 more mil to throw at upcoming contracts and free agents.
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Old 08-10-2009   #135
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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i'm curious what people would be saying right now if Smith had managed to sign Robinson to top 5 money, Ryans to top 2 money and Daniels to top 2 money. I wonder where that would leave us cap wise. (I know it's impossible to know). But I am curious how people expected this to be handled.

.....
I expect Dunta Robinson to be on another team next season. I really believed that his injury would dictate how he was handled this off-season and thought he'd either get an offer and sign or be franchised. His contract negotiations have been just as screwy as I thought they'd be.

I expect the first one of the two (Ryans/Daniels) to demonstrate that they're having a hell of a year to get signed. the other will follow (I think it will be Daniels, Ryans play will get him a contract first).

I don't think that Daniels will get the kind of money he'd like to be paid. Not sure how that will end but he's a good player and we can find good players regularly now so he's not going to be paid like he's a great player. I think Ryans might be a great player and I think he'll show it again this year with better support around him and a better system. I expect Mario and Ryans to blow up, Cushing to play very well, and Akoye to finally turn the corner. Kind of off-topic but there it is. That's what I expect and that's how I think it will result in contracts.

Dunta wasn't absolutely a good cornerback before he got hurt so he's just a mystery wrapped inside an enigma right now. They're going to watch him play and decide whether they should pay. Mark my words on this, Dunta will be welcome to shop himself following this season. Not sure how that will turn out but I expect it to happen.
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Old 08-10-2009   #136
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Im at the point where Im just trying to spin this into a win-win in my own head. If we sign DR then cool, more skill in our secondary. If we dont then good, we'll have 10 more mil to throw at upcoming contracts and free agents.
That's pretty much how I feel also, just as long as we get him into camp for the last 2 weeks of TC so that he can get up to speed and we don't waste a couple or 3 weeks of the season getting there or we are in essence paying even more for him than the ten mill.
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Old 08-10-2009   #137
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

Something that I think about with these player contracts is the fact that in a few years their contract won't seem as big if that makes any sense....

With rookies coming in and making as much as they do and FA contracts constantly increasing I think that a big contract now won't seem as big in a few years...
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Old 08-10-2009   #138
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Something that I think about with these player contracts is the fact that in a few years their contract won't seem as big if that makes any sense....

With rookies coming in and making as much as they do and FA contracts constantly increasing I think that a big contract now won't seem as big in a few years...
We don't know what contracts will look like in the upcoming years. I think they will be up, but perhaps they will be down for certain types of players. The labor situation is as uncertain as it ever has been which makes contracts very hard to work out right now.

It is a bad enough situation when it is labor v. teams. But when the players all have different issues (with agents in the mix) and teams have very differing views of splitting up revenues, it is likely going to be a big freaking mess. The NFL was all about making the league strong and competitive as a whole perhaps at the expense of profits of the big market teams. Whether that benevolent point of view will continue in the age of mega stadiums with huge debt loads is something to be seen.
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Old 08-10-2009   #139
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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We don't know what contracts will look like in the upcoming years. I think they will be up, but perhaps they will be down for certain types of players. The labor situation is as uncertain as it ever has been which makes contracts very hard to work out right now.

It is a bad enough situation when it is labor v. teams. But when the players all have different issues (with agents in the mix) and teams have very differing views of splitting up revenues, it is likely going to be a big freaking mess. The NFL was all about making the league strong and competitive as a whole perhaps at the expense of profits of the big market teams. Whether that benevolent point of view will continue in the age of mega stadiums with huge debt loads is something to be seen.
I would say that the Jerry Jones' of the NFL ownership are putting an end to the Ralph Wilsons of the NFL. The writing has been on the wall for the past few years, IMO.

I think the day of the small-market NFL team is at an end, except for Green Bay which has its own unusual niche amongst its nation-wide following.
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Old 08-10-2009   #140
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

I just don't understand how one could blame Smith or the FO in this situation if you believe that the player is overvaluing and asking for more money than he's worth. How can you have it both ways here?

This just smells like another one of those "players are sacred and can do no wrong and the FO can do no right" blame games.
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