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Old 08-08-2009   #101
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Default Re: Dunta speak about Returning and the Franchise tag

This whole thing is not getting either side anywhere. Lets get a deal done for this season and worry about next season when it gets here. This is a marry go round already and it's not helping anyone. Fans are becoming less interested and more sick of this on going circus with every day that goes by. If he plays well and wants to come back then fine but if he wants to walk then let him walk. I understand those people who are saying tag him again and do not just let him go if he ends up playing well. You should look at it this way if he does indeed play well to show the other teams in the league what he has left in his tank but really doesn't want to be here and he gets tagged again he might get very angry and not be very into it because he does not want to be here anymore. What's the point? Enough said, is it football time in Houston yet? I don't know about you folks but I know I'm ready. Lets just move on and see how it all plays out because it's way beyond our control lets just leave it all up to the folks with all the power to make something happen and that's Dunte and the FO JMO. GO TEXANS OUR FIRST PLAYOFF BIRTH IN 2009
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Old 08-08-2009   #102
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Originally Posted by ChampionTexan View Post
Two points:

The idea that Dunta doesn't want to be in Houston seems to me to fall into the category of "If you say it enough times with enough certainty, almost everyone will eventually buy into it hook, line and sinker".
I'm one of the people who gets the impression that Dunta doesn't want to be in Houston anymore, because of this SIMPLE reason.

He doesn't want to get tagged next season.

The question we have to ask ourselves is: Under what scenario would Dunta get tagged a second season in a row?
Scenario a) Dunta does not perform because of nagging injury or just because he isn't all he was cracked up to be.
Result: Texans do not offer him a big, multi-year contract, nor do they use the Franchise Tag for a second year, so that's out.

Scenario b) Dunta plays well and wants to be in Houston.
Result: Dunta wants to play in Houston, and he's played well, so the Texans offer him a deal that would make him a very highly paid CB in the NFL, especially after the uncertaininty about the new CBA is dealt with.

Scenario c) Dunta plays well but doesn't want to be in Houston.
Result: He gets tagged again.

In no other scenario can I imagine that DR gets tagged a second time! So, if he really wants to avoid that second tag, then it's obvious to me that what he's really trying to do is avoid staying in Houston a second longer than he has to.

Maybe my logic is flawed, but if it is, please reason it out to me, because this is the only thing that makes sense to me.
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Old 08-08-2009   #103
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

Okay Dunta, we'll agree not to Franchise you next year if you make the following goals.

1) 11 picks - This is one more pick than anyone has gotten in the regular season in the last 10 years. If you want unreal money, you have to be the very best.
2) 23 PDef - This is how many guaranteed millions you just turned down.
3) 55 tackles - This is how many millions in salary you just turned down.
4) 10 FF - This is the draft position we selected you at.
5) 1 TD - This is the round you were taken in.
6) 6 sacks - This is the number of seasons you've been in the league.
7) 16 GP - This is what we're paying you for.

If you can do all of this, we agree to not Franchise you. However, if you can do all of this, we're going to use the Transition tag on you & retain the right to match any offer you get. Your acceptance of these terms will show us & everyone else how serious you are about remaining a Texan for life.
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Old 08-08-2009   #104
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

After hearing this, if I were Smith I'd say, "Dunta, fly your ass down here and be the FIRST one on field tomorrow. Deal." No tag next year? Surely we'll find out whether Dunta is legitimately worth elite money or not and whether he wants to be a Texan or not. The point of keeping him here at an unreasonable price and/or against his will is....what exactly? It looks like we've got a decent stock of athletes at CB right now - Bennett, Molden, Quin, McCain, Reeves and if none of them develop into starter material while Dunta is here then draft one when he leaves.

Deal. Ease any building tension, see what this D is going to look like, see what DUNTA is going to look like....just time to move forward because hanging around in negotiation limbo isn't helping the team.
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Old 08-08-2009   #105
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Originally Posted by Vinny View Post
I also think that RS has questionable people skills.
Yeah, I have heard that also. I suspect he is another guy that his ego has trouble getting through the door. Supposedly he is a bit of a standoffish type. Might be better having someone else doing the negotiations and then he just sign off on the deal.
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Old 08-08-2009   #106
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Originally Posted by edo783 View Post
Yeah, I have heard that also. I suspect he is another guy that his ego has trouble getting through the door. Supposedly he is a bit of a standoffish type. Might be better having someone else doing the negotiations and then he just sign off on the deal.
Guys, we're looking to blame Rick Smith for essentially what, doing his job? So what if he has an ego? So does Kubes, and Dunta, and McNair, and Jones, and Snyder, and just about any other pro football player I can name outside of Andre Johnson. That doesn't mean he's not any good at doing his job. I sided with Rick Smith on this issue immediately after Dunta went on his media whining fit and turned a business decision into something personal. From that point on, I haven't cared about anything he's had to say. I just can't side with a guy who makes a business decision personal.

Plus, what if the Texans fold and give Dunta what he wants? That's called setting a precedent. Every agent will try to eat the Texans alive on negotitations from that point on. Dunta is only hurting himself and Smith knows it. There's no way the Texans should agree to not franchise him after this season. Doing that could cost the organization at least two high round draft picks if Dunta comes back and has a stellar season. And we would be irrate as fans at Rick Smith for good reason if he allowed that to happen.
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Old 08-08-2009   #107
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

So you think Dunta Robinson has a little more leverage in his contract negotiations with the Texans because of the injury situation at cornerback?

Please. The Texans have the power and are using it. But they better be careful.

The Texans aren't desperate to have Robinson end his holdout because Jacques Reeves broke his leg and a couple of other cornerbacks are gimpy. They are desperate to have Robinson end his holdout because Robinson is their best cornerback and most intense defensive player.

It doesn't matter if Robinson is a top-five or top-10 or top-15 cornerback, the Texans' defense is better with him on the field.

Robinson did get more leverage this past week, but more leverage he didn't need. He wants to be on the field with the Texans — “It's killing me not to be there,” he said — but this is how negotiations go. This high-dollar back-and-forth is no longer a negotiation. Robinson has one request: “Agree not to franchise me again next season.”

But general manager Rick Smith is standing at the door to camp wielding a huge rubber stamp with the words “Request Denied” on it.

Robinson's request seems reasonable, considering how unlikely the Texans are to use what could be an $11 million hammer next season. The tag will cost them a measly $10 million this year.

But the Texans have a good reason to deny Robinson's request: They can.

“We're not inclined to agree to that,” Smith said, citing the organization's position against putting such a guarantee in the one-year contract Robinson will soon have to sign.

What the Texans are doing isn't dirty. It's business. If people knew the whole story about the Robinson situation, there would be far fewer negative comments from fans, bloggers and radio sports talk-show hosts about him not being a team player.

Smith, who says Robinson needs to get to camp as soon as possible, even said Robinson is taking unfair shots about being a team player.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/6565222.html
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Old 08-08-2009   #108
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Originally Posted by Texan JBZ View Post
Guys, we're looking to blame Rick Smith for essentially what, doing his job? So what if he has an ego? So does Kubes, and Dunta, and McNair, and Jones, and Snyder, and just about any other pro football player I can name outside of Andre Johnson. That doesn't mean he's not any good at doing his job. I sided with Rick Smith on this issue immediately after Dunta went on his media whining fit and turned a business decision into something personal. From that point on, I haven't cared about anything he's had to say. I just can't side with a guy who makes a business decision personal.

Plus, what if the Texans fold and give Dunta what he wants? That's called setting a precedent. Every agent will try to eat the Texans alive on negotitations from that point on. Dunta is only hurting himself and Smith knows it. There's no way the Texans should agree to not franchise him after this season. Doing that could cost the organization at least two high round draft picks if Dunta comes back and has a stellar season. And we would be irrate as fans at Rick Smith for good reason if he allowed that to happen.
You don't want the Texans to let him walk without getting anything in return for him so maybe once he is signed they should consider shopping him around. That's the only way I see Houston getting anything back because if he's tagged again he won't like it and we'll be sitting here talking about the same old thing next offseason.
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Old 08-08-2009   #109
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
To me, it all depends on if we're getting good information about his contract offer. If so, it looks like this to me:

1. In initial talks, RS tells Dunta he won't be tagged because he plans on offering him a sweet deal to stay.
2. RS offers Dunta a big deal which RS assumes will be accepted.
3. Dunta turns deal down because he wants to leave Houston.
4. RS tags Dunta to keep him from leaving.
5. Dunta gets ticked because he was told he wouldn't be tagged and now he can't leave.
6. Dunta offers to end hold out if he won't be tagged in the future because then he'll have to opportunity to go.

None of this has any basis in truth or reality other than this is what it looks like to me looking at it from the outside. And the reason it looks like this to me is:

1. Dunta turned down a deal that is really more than he's worth (IF we have the right numbers about his deal.)
2. Dunta was extremely ticked off about getting tagged.
3. Dunta really wants assurances that he won't get tagged in the future.

So, he's not really interested in a deal that will keep him here. If he was, he would have taken that first deal that was offered.

That's why I think he wants to leave.
This is exactly what I think about the whole Dunta saga
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Old 08-09-2009   #110
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Originally Posted by Texan JBZ View Post
Guys, we're looking to blame Rick Smith for essentially what, doing his job? So what if he has an ego? So does Kubes, and Dunta, and McNair, and Jones, and Snyder, and just about any other pro football player I can name outside of Andre Johnson. That doesn't mean he's not any good at doing his job. I sided with Rick Smith on this issue immediately after Dunta went on his media whining fit and turned a business decision into something personal. From that point on, I haven't cared about anything he's had to say. I just can't side with a guy who makes a business decision personal.

Plus, what if the Texans fold and give Dunta what he wants? That's called setting a precedent. Every agent will try to eat the Texans alive on negotitations from that point on. Dunta is only hurting himself and Smith knows it. There's no way the Texans should agree to not franchise him after this season. Doing that could cost the organization at least two high round draft picks if Dunta comes back and has a stellar season. And we would be irrate as fans at Rick Smith for good reason if he allowed that to happen.
So you're saying the job of a GM is to depersonalize the contract negotiations and look at the long-term ramifications of how each current decision might impact future decisions?

Sounds a little too logical to me.

Sounds like a few players are pining for the good old days of Capers & Casserly. Uncle Charlie & The Money Factory.
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Old 08-09-2009   #111
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
To me, it all depends on if we're getting good information about his contract offer. If so, it looks like this to me:

So, he's not really interested in a deal that will keep him here. If he was, he would have taken that first deal that was offered.

That's why I think he wants to leave.
That makes sense, if the contract offered was in fact a sweet deal. Which I don't think it was.

In the interview, Dunta says something to the effect of, "why would they want to franchise me two years in a row, & pay me $22 million, when they didn't want to give me $23 million to begin with." & then the comment about RS saying Dunta wasn't worth the tag.....

Other than Weaver, which was done before RS, I don't think we've overpaid anyone. I don't think RS wants to start now. I understand, emotionally we've all got a lot invested in #23, but if you take a step back, and look at his play....... even if you were to give him the benefit of the doubt, and say he is 100% recovered.. he's not worth top 5 money.

We tag him, to make sure he doesn't leave without getting compensation. We allow him to talk to other teams let other teams tel him what he is worth to them. From what I understand, no other team made an offer worth talking about.

You would think that meant no team thought he was worthy of the picks they would have to give up, plus the money. Maybe these other teams told him, we'll give you the moon, if it weren't for that tag, but it's hard to say. Hard to say if they meant it. They might just be driving the price up on the Texans with no intention of paying him that much.

While I'm not his bestest fan, I agree the guy has skills. I dare say he is a starting corner, but what we should be considering our #2, not our #1. I'm sure someone will offer him stupid money to play.

I just don't think we should match stupid money to keep him here.
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Old 08-09-2009   #112
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

I do not like how either sides have dealt with the situation, but of course things happen this way.

I still dont understand why a lot of people are calling for him to be traded, he shows(as always) his heart and commitment for the Texans.
The business side of this situation has made it seem that Dunta is not commited but this happends in any profession.He will be back to his normal self(if not better) and playing his heart out on the field this year, which has always been one of my favorite things about going to a Texans game is watching Dunta and how he makes the whole team's mentality different as a whole.
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Old 08-09-2009   #113
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
That makes sense, if the contract offered was in fact a sweet deal. Which I don't think it was.

In the interview, Dunta says something to the effect of, "why would they want to franchise me two years in a row, & pay me $22 million, when they didn't want to give me $23 million to begin with." & then the comment about RS saying Dunta wasn't worth the tag.....
From the article quoted by the OP:
Quote:
Robinson, who has not talked publicly about the situation since April, would not say how much the Texans offered him long-term. But he noted that the reported $23 million guarantee is almost what the Texans would be forced to pay him for only two seasons of work if he were franchised next year as well.
TK - You've either seen another quote from Dunta (which I would love to get a link to), or you are interpereting this quote completely differently than I am.

What I interperet is more along the lines of "If I can get almost $23 million by being franchised for two years, why should I sign a LT deal that only guarantees me a little bit more, yet ties me up for 4-5 years?"
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Old 08-09-2009   #114
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Default Re: Dunta speak about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Originally Posted by Runner View Post
It seems like removing the franchise tag is a simple thing. It only protects the Texans if he he plays very well this year and would then command a big free agent contract. If he only plays average, they wouldn't want to pay him $12M anyway. I hope Rick Smith isn't just being stubborn and trying to save face, or worse yet delaying the signing just to send a message.

It was also good to hear Dunta doesn't sound as irrational and spiteful as he's been painted here. He knows he needs to be in camp. He needs to consider pulling the trigger too. He and Smith are both being very stubborn.
The problem about agreeing to non-franchise the second year for certain incentives reached is:

1. Then you have set a team precedent that you will do that for much better players.
2. More likely than not, if the player is any good and they meet their no-franchise the second year incentives, they will bolt.

All the players who have had this sort of no-franchise the second year deal have at least one pro-bowl, most more....
Haynesworth, Samuels, Clements bolted.
Briggs ended up signing a long term deal.

Dunta Robinson was statistically the worst CB for the Texans. If they agree to do this for Robinson, then they will have to do it for much better players. Robinson was franchised to buy more time for a long term deal that couldn't be worked out. He wouldn't have been franchised had the Texans had other players that needed to be franchised.
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Old 08-09-2009   #115
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Default Re: Dunta speak about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Originally Posted by Texans_Chick View Post
The problem about agreeing to non-franchise the second year for certain incentives reached is:

1. Then you have set a team precedent that you will do that for much better players.
2. More likely than not, if the player is any good and they meet their no-franchise the second year incentives, they will bolt.

All the players who have had this sort of no-franchise the second year deal have at least one pro-bowl, most more....
Haynesworth, Samuels, Clements bolted.
Briggs ended up signing a long term deal.

Dunta Robinson was statistically the worst CB for the Texans. If they agree to do this for Robinson, then they will have to do it for much better players. Robinson was franchised to buy more time for a long term deal that couldn't be worked out. He wouldn't have been franchised had the Texans had other players that needed to be franchised.
Spot on.
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Old 08-09-2009   #116
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Originally Posted by ChampionTexan View Post
From the article quoted by the OP:


TK - You've either seen another quote from Dunta (which I would love to get a link to), or you are interpereting this quote completely differently than I am.

What I interperet is more along the lines of "If I can get almost $23 million by being franchised for two years, why should I sign a LT deal that only guarantees me a little bit more, yet ties me up for 4-5 years?"
Same quote, we're just reading it differently. I'm reading it as I stated earlier, and you're reading it wrong.


Guys look, I've just decided to stay away from these Dunta Robinson threads. Not because I don't like the discussion in a slower than slow offseason, but I think I get a bad rap, for the things I say. Kinda like T.O. I say the truth, and some people are just not ready for the truth.

But if this goes the way the old David Carr threads went.. I'll end up sounding very negative, and detrimental to the team.

I'm open to the fact that I may be wrong about #23.... and I'll have no problem saying so in the future. right now, all I want is what's best for the team.

If that means RS folds to get Dunta into camp so he can lead our backfield, then so be it.

I know I'm breaking some of your hearts, by keeping my perspective to myself.... but I think it's for the best.
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Old 08-09-2009   #117
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
Same quote, we're just reading it differently. I'm reading it as I stated earlier, and you're reading it wrong.


Guys look, I've just decided to stay away from these Dunta Robinson threads. Not because I don't like the discussion in a slower than slow offseason, but I think I get a bad rap, for the things I say. Kinda like T.O. I say the truth, and some people are just not ready for the truth.
You know, when you do it to yourself, it just gets funny.
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Old 08-10-2009   #118
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

Here's a more detailed discussion of this:


More Dunta Robinson talks, the less sense he makes


I don't hate Robinson. I just think that he shouldn't be talking about how eager he is to be a Texan, or how he is a team player, etc. Actions speak louder than words. The more he talks, the worse it looks for him.

In the blog post, I talk about previous players who have received the same contractual arrangement that Robinson is seeking, how some people think that teams should never agree to that, and some on DR's value.
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Old 08-10-2009   #119
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Default Re: Dunta speak about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Originally Posted by painekiller View Post
Then give us the right to match any offer. Oh that right, you can't do that because the union would be mad.

He is only hurting himself right now.
That would be the Transition tag.
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Old 08-10-2009   #120
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

Well, when I'm wrong I like to be wrong in a spectacular fashion.

I now believe Dunta probably did turn down some form of "Gamble-like" money. I don't know about terms, but $20M+ guaranteed wouldn't surprise me. To review other positions based on this assumption:

Should he have taken the long term deal - yes!

Is he a bad person - no!

Is he over-evaluating his value - probably. I don't know what he could get as a free agent.

Is he a bad cornerback - no!

Would his presence this year help the team on the field - yes!

Lockerroom cancer or defensive leader - defensive leader.

Should the Texans cut him - no.

Do I still see fault in Rick Smith - yes.
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