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Old 08-08-2009   #81
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Originally Posted by ChampionTexan View Post
Two points:

The idea that Dunta doesn't want to be in Houston seems to me to fall into the category of "If you say it enough times with enough certainty, almost everyone will eventually buy into it hook, line and sinker". There's lots of instances of athletes demonstrating what appeared to be great animosity towards a city (or more correctly the franchise based in a certain city), and then signing on long-term. I've heard nothing from Dunta that makes me certain that he's dead-set on leaving Houston in the rearview mirror. Body language analysis, word parsing, and "I know a guy who knows Dunta" don't mean too much to me on things like this. Besides, I also know that even if I'm totally wrong, and Dunta is dead-set on leaving Houston, it's amazing how things can change if the Texans give him enough money (or the other 31 NFL teams don't give him enough money). Yes it's about money - it's always about money.

Second, if my first point is off-base, The Texans still have the ability to guarantee (if they so choose) that for at least the next two years, Dunta either plays football for them, or he doesn't play NFL football.
I don't think this is about being in Houston either. I think Robinson has no leverage, but is trying desperately to create some. I also think that RS has questionable people skills.
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Old 08-08-2009   #82
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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I've heard that RS is a jerk from more than one person and have heard stories from people I trust about ex-players that say this in private. My view is that RS may be a great talent evaluator but he doesn't have much finesse.
It certainly is beginning to look that way but as long as he can get the talent I can live with it. I mean look what A.J. Smith has done with the Chargers.
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Old 08-08-2009   #83
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Default Re: Dunta speak about Returning and the Franchise tag

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a) CB is more of a 'need' than WR. we don't need him.
b) Trade one malcontent who has an NFL resume for one who hasn't played a down?
I'll have to pass on that.
Malcom Jenkins is a CB not a WR.
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Old 08-08-2009   #84
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Originally Posted by ChampionTexan View Post
The idea that Dunta doesn't want to be in Houston seems to me to fall into the category of "If you say it enough times with enough certainty, almost everyone will eventually buy into it hook, line and sinker".
Spot on. Haven't seen anything at all that supports that oft-expressed view.
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Old 08-08-2009   #85
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/afcsouth/...-to-this-.html

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These were the incentives:

* Make the Pro Bowl.
* Play 60 percent of the team's defensive snaps.
* Play 53 percent of the team's defensive snaps and the Titans win 10 games.
* Play 53 percent of the team's defensive snaps and the Titans finish in the NFL's top five in total defense.

Also as a note a team can franchise a player up to three times.

I will say that it does seem that RS has not been making many players happy this past year. My question is, is it an our team related issue or is it that the soon to be FA want a deal done now before a new collective bargaining agreement is in place?

I know the security of a long term deal because of a signing bonus and the cap hit of what it would take to actually cut or trade a player kind of makes the contract guaranteed for a few years even when it is not.
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Old 08-08-2009   #86
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

I'm so ready for this issue to be over.

The only real solution is to allow Dunta to hold out. Then, at the end of the season, the organization will know his real value and can negotiate from a much more informed position.
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Old 08-08-2009   #87
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

When conceived the franchise tag was thought to be a special designation for a player. In essence, the idea was to say this player is so valuable, that we want extra time to be able to negotiate with them.

In essence, the FT protects the team of a potentially bad contact by giving the player a big one year contract in order to see if they want to give him a bigger deal. While a big one year contract may seem like its good for the player, there is no job security.

Also think about taxes. A $9 mill contract quickly loses about half of its value in taxes. Then remember that many of these players have very little skills outside of football. Can you really retire in your mid 20s or 30s and live into your 70s on about 4.5 mill? Do the math and compare it to your bills and check it out.

Another interesting thing about this discussion is that it helps to reveal other parts about you. Are you a pro labor guy(pro Dunta) or a pro managment person (FO). Do you have a strong opnion one way or the other can reveal alot of intersting things.

That's why this issue is so interesting for me: because this issue goes far beyond DR and the FO but taps into each poster's individual values.
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Old 08-08-2009   #88
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Originally Posted by ChampionTexan View Post
Two points:

The idea that Dunta doesn't want to be in Houston seems to me to fall into the category of "If you say it enough times with enough certainty, almost everyone will eventually buy into it hook, line and sinker". There's lots of instances of athletes demonstrating what appeared to be great animosity towards a city (or more correctly the franchise based in a certain city), and then signing on long-term. I've heard nothing from Dunta that makes me certain that he's dead-set on leaving Houston in the rearview mirror. Body language analysis, word parsing, and "I know a guy who knows Dunta" don't mean too much to me on things like this. Besides, I also know that even if I'm totally wrong, and Dunta is dead-set on leaving Houston, it's amazing how things can change if the Texans give him enough money (or the other 31 NFL teams don't give him enough money). Yes it's about money - it's always about money.

Second, if my first point is off-base, The Texans still have the ability to guarantee (if they so choose) that for at least the next two years, Dunta either plays football for them, or he doesn't play NFL football.
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I don't think this is about being in Houston either. I think Robinson has no leverage, but is trying desperately to create some. I also think that RS has questionable people skills.
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Spot on. Haven't seen anything at all that supports that oft-expressed view.
It's just something I believe. I've come to that conclusion on my own (I think) and I could certainly be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time nor likely the last. I just really don't think he plans on staying here once he's free of that franchise tag next season (he hopes).

I don't repeat it with any desire or need to acquire converts though. Just my take.
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Old 08-08-2009   #89
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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It's just something I believe. I've come to that conclusion on my own (I think) and I could certainly be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time nor likely the last. I just really don't think he plans on staying here once he's free of that franchise tag next season (he hopes).

I don't repeat it with any desire or need to acquire converts though. Just my take.
Agreed. The thing for me is that numerous sources have reported Dunta being offered a more than acceptable contract for his services that he turned down. Then he spews this crap about how Smith promised not to franchise him, but now Dunta is spinning it trying to get everyone's sympathy by saying Smith told him he wasn't worth the franchise tag.

Yes, the idea that Dunta doesn't want to play in Houston is pure speculation, but that doesn't mean there isn't significant evidence that Dunta wants out. Now, perhaps it is less about wanting out of Houston and more about wanting to see how much he is worth and wanting to shop himself around, but regardless his agent is a moron for having him turn down the contract numerous sources report we offered him.

So in summary, I strongly believe we can at least say this: Dunta doesn't love Houston as much as we may have thought he did.
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Old 08-08-2009   #90
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Originally Posted by awtysst View Post
When conceived the franchise tag was thought to be a special designation for a player. In essence, the idea was to say this player is so valuable, that we want extra time to be able to negotiate with them.

In essence, the FT protects the team of a potentially bad contact by giving the player a big one year contract in order to see if they want to give him a bigger deal. While a big one year contract may seem like its good for the player, there is no job security.

Also think about taxes. A $9 mill contract quickly loses about half of its value in taxes. Then remember that many of these players have very little skills outside of football. Can you really retire in your mid 20s or 30s and live into your 70s on about 4.5 mill? Do the math and compare it to your bills and check it out.

Another interesting thing about this discussion is that it helps to reveal other parts about you. Are you a pro labor guy(pro Dunta) or a pro managment person (FO). Do you have a strong opnion one way or the other can reveal alot of intersting things.

That's why this issue is so interesting for me: because this issue goes far beyond DR and the FO but taps into each poster's individual values.
Rep your way.

This issue has layers.

Pro Management: The front office doesn't want to rush into a long-term deal. I am beginning to wonder if the Texans don't want to pull the same thing they did with Domanick Davis--Extra money for a player that might have one or two more seasons, at best, left in the tank. Then there's the hope that they can line up a trade and move Dunta off but still get something for it.

Pro Labor: Dunta thinks he has plenty left in the tank, possibly sees the FO restricting his ability and desire to get a long-term deal (either with Texans or another team, which Texans aren't allowing him to seek).

If he suits up for week 1, it doesn't do anything special for me in terms of what I think about him. Couldn't they get him to sign the tender but make an amendment that holds him out of contact & strenuous activity during camp and preseason? Just get him with the team, in the meetings, on the field doing running and to at least be there? This does seem like it's become a little childish on both sides.

What I do know: The Texans are willing to give him $10 million for one year. I don't care if that only comes out to $5 million. That's a problem a lot of us would love to face in life. He can make $5 million this year or nothing at all for the year. If he has enough coin to make it a year without getting paid, he'd do OK with $5 million for one year per the FT salary.

If Dunta is concerned about getting hurt, how much more is the FO worried? I'd be scared to death no matter what Dunta says about how he feels.

We're on the brink of making the playoffs, possibly starting a pretty stable team for the next few years. Some people here, especially with Reeves getting injured, are buying into exactly what Dunta has been hoping for: That something would happen that would force the FO hand.

And they responded by adding two more cornerbacks.

That's a silent commentary, by management, about whether they're going to cave to Dunta or not.
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Old 08-08-2009   #91
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Default Re: Dunta speak about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Malcom Jenkins is a CB not a WR.
Cranial flatulence episode.
For some reason I was thinking about Crabtree.

Still, I'd rather have the known quantity over an unproven rookie.

What's Jenkins' deal anyway; length of the contract or the money?
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Old 08-08-2009   #92
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Default Re: Dunta speak about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Originally Posted by Hervoyel View Post
I believe the following things and I base that belief on nothing more than what I've read in the papers and seen on television. I base it on the feeling Dunta gives me when he talks on camera about this and on his choice of words when I read him quoted.

Dunta wants to leave Houston. I don't have a doubt in my mind that he's gone the moment he becomes a free agent.
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Aaron Glen was on 610 the other morning, it's linked in the other Dunta thread, in the interview they told Aaron, Dunta turned down $23M guaranteed, and Glenn goes that would have been one of the highest paid CB in football.
I've had this feeling about Robinson since the end of last season. The evidence isn't conclusive, but it is just a feeling. I'm not saying it isn't about money; I just think it is also about changing teams. Part of it is the feeling I get watching his interviews. Part of it is the unverified, mid-season rumor that he actually wanted out of Houston. But most of it is the history of the franchise tag.

More often than not, tagged players don't re-sign with the tagging team. I've read articles suggesting that is because the tag often increases the acrimony of the negotiations by severely limiting the player's options, leading the player to do whatever it takes to generate soem leverage. Anyway, once the Texans applied the tag, I just went to hoping they would get the deals with Ryans and Daniels worked out.

If Robinson returns, I will be very surprised.
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Old 08-08-2009   #93
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Default Re: Dunta speak about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Critical of Smith? Why? I believe the reports out there about what was offered to Dumbta, DeMeco, and Owen. All three of these guys would have been among the Top 5 paid players at their positions if they had signed their contract offers. What more can Smith do? Its not like the Texans are afraid to pay their players good money. Schaub is the highest paid QB this season. AJ is paid in the Top 5 of WRs. Winston is paid very well too. These guys are full of crap. I can see if they came out and vehemently dismissed these contract offers as falsified statements by the media. Not one of these guys or their agents have refuted what the media has leaked out about their contract negotitations. I can't sit here and blame Smith if he's not letting guys run the contract negotiatios. It's his job to what is best for the organization and keep them out of salary cap hell.

I'm okay with the way that the Texans are running things right now. If you look at the better organizations around the NFL, they very seldom fold to a disgruntled player. The Eagles, Patriots, Ravens, Steelers, and Giants usually never give in. The teams that are poorly run, such as the Redskins, Raiders, and Cowboys seem to always give into the players and overpay for them. It looks like my Texans are following the former rather than the latter, which is a good thing for us fans whether we realize it or not.
Haven't gotten thru reading the entire thread, but so far this is the best one I've read yet.

Kudos!
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Old 08-08-2009   #94
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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That was a very good read. Makes me feel a little better about Dunta. Well, I never really had any hard feelings against him. I just don't think he's a very good Corner Back. Well, he's not a very good Cover corner anyway.

Quote:
“He said I wasn’t a franchise tag-worthy player,”
I can't believe Rick Smith actually said that to him.

It's totally in line with what I'm thinking.

If the Texans are thinking like me, I can't see why they won't make the silly promise(which I wouldn't have a problem breaking next season if it comes down to it) and give him every opportunity to be ready week 1.

That is unless Dunta let his mouth get the best of him while they were in negotiations.

I mean if Smith said that about Dunta, can you imagine what Dunta said about Smith?
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Old 08-08-2009   #95
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Default Re: Dunta speak about Returning and the Franchise tag

Dunta just wants out of Houston. As soon as he started pointing to New England and Tennessee and how they handled their best players, he proved to me that he wants out because each of those guys went to different teams.

The only reason he stated he would be in camp is not about loving the team or anything. It's because if he goes to camp he can then prove to other teams that he can play still. If we promise not to tag next year then he knows he's going to stay in Houston, then why go to camp if he don't have to?

I say promise not to tag him. We need another starter in camp at CB and we don't need him coming in the last week of camp and not know our defense and that screw us up in our chance for the playoffs. If he doesn't play good then he will have to stay in Houston cuz noone will want him. IF he plays well and we make it to the playoffs, winning cures everything and maybe he wants to stay. If not, that's good too - Thanks Dunta for helping us reach the playoffs we wish you well. Just like Dunta mentioned, New England and Tennessee are two playoff teams that don't allow any player to be bigger than the club. We can do the same and hopefully our season is a big one and will help us land a good FA CB.
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Old 08-08-2009   #96
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Default Re: Dunta speak about Returning and the Franchise tag

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There is no reason to get involved in the details of all this. The bottom line is simple: Dunta says he wants to come back in time to be ready to play the first game. That is all I care about. I just want him to play the first game at the best of his ability.

The real question is, do you trust his judgment on how much work he needs to be ready? If you trust him to come in early enough to be ready -- even if that is next week -- then all is good. If you don't trust him to know how much work he needs to be ready, then the first game could be a bad game for him.

The next question is, do you trust the coaches to know whether he is ready? If the coaches think he isn't ready, they won't play him as if he were.

The last question is, can the rest of the team (including Bennett, Molden, Quin and MccCain) beat the Jets if the coaches decide Dunta isn't ready to play?

Personally, I think Dunta knows how to play and when he is ready. He is a leader for a reason; he loves to play. He also knows that this season is his league-wide interview. I think he will try to come in on time, and I think he will come in early enough to play well. I think he will come in at least a week earlier than John McClain predicted, because that is what is best for him.

If he doesn't come in on time, I trust the Texans coaches to recognize the fact. They will use him sparingly, and in situations where he is likely to succeed.

Finally, I like the Texans' mix of cornerbacks. I think Bennett, Molden and Quin together can help the team beat the Jets. The Titans game is a completely different story, but that will be a tough game anyway. Regardless, I think Dunta will be ready by then. That is over 6 weeks away, so it is possible Reeves will be back by then as well.

Basically, I'm an optimist. I think Dunta is willing to play when it counts and his holdout won't impact the team's win-loss record.
Well, I sure wish I shared that optimism, but I'm sorry, it ain't happening. Dunta said so himself in the article that even though he's "in shape", he'll be behind the curve in learning the new defensive system.

So if we lose a couple of early games, in part because "the best cornerback on the team" didn't know where he was supposed be, or busts a coverage, this argument that "it's just business" gets a little specious, doesn't it?
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Old 08-08-2009   #97
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
Spot on. Haven't seen anything at all that supports that oft-expressed view.
To me, it all depends on if we're getting good information about his contract offer. If so, it looks like this to me:

1. In initial talks, RS tells Dunta he won't be tagged because he plans on offering him a sweet deal to stay.
2. RS offers Dunta a big deal which RS assumes will be accepted.
3. Dunta turns deal down because he wants to leave Houston.
4. RS tags Dunta to keep him from leaving.
5. Dunta gets ticked because he was told he wouldn't be tagged and now he can't leave.
6. Dunta offers to end hold out if he won't be tagged in the future because then he'll have to opportunity to go.

None of this has any basis in truth or reality other than this is what it looks like to me looking at it from the outside. And the reason it looks like this to me is:

1. Dunta turned down a deal that is really more than he's worth (IF we have the right numbers about his deal.)
2. Dunta was extremely ticked off about getting tagged.
3. Dunta really wants assurances that he won't get tagged in the future.

So, he's not really interested in a deal that will keep him here. If he was, he would have taken that first deal that was offered.

That's why I think he wants to leave.
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Old 08-08-2009   #98
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Originally Posted by awtysst View Post
When conceived the franchise tag was thought to be a special designation for a player. In essence, the idea was to say this player is so valuable, that we want extra time to be able to negotiate with them.

In essence, the FT protects the team of a potentially bad contact by giving the player a big one year contract in order to see if they want to give him a bigger deal. While a big one year contract may seem like its good for the player, there is no job security.

Also think about taxes. A $9 mill contract quickly loses about half of its value in taxes. Then remember that many of these players have very little skills outside of football. Can you really retire in your mid 20s or 30s and live into your 70s on about 4.5 mill? Do the math and compare it to your bills and check it out.

Another interesting thing about this discussion is that it helps to reveal other parts about you. Are you a pro labor guy(pro Dunta) or a pro managment person (FO). Do you have a strong opnion one way or the other can reveal alot of intersting things.

That's why this issue is so interesting for me: because this issue goes far beyond DR and the FO but taps into each poster's individual values.
Taxes aren't quite that bad (yet). More like 40%, so a $9.95 million deal nets about $6 million. With that kind of money you can get very secure investments paying 5% a year. So the interest alone would be about $300K a year ($200K after taxes). Let me check my bills - YES! I can live on that. I don't care how sorry someone's other life skills are, to be set for life based on one years income is pretty sweet.

I definitely agree with you that most people's opinion has a lot to do with their individual values and a little with the specific facts in a particular case.
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Old 08-08-2009   #99
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Default Re: Dunta speak about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Originally Posted by HJam72 View Post
It all just sounds to me like both sides are concerned about Dunta getting re-injured. The Texans don't want to lose him or give him a long-term deal until he proves he can stay healthy, and Dunta just wants a long-term deal, period.
We do know the Texans offered him a long term deal. It just wasn't big enough for Dunta. IMHO, from reading Dunta's side, it sounds like they weren't willing to agree to pay him $23 million guaranteed.

I can't imagine Dunta turning his nose up at $23 million guaranteed.
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Old 08-08-2009   #100
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
To me, it all depends on if we're getting good information about his contract offer. If so, it looks like this to me:

1. In initial talks, RS tells Dunta he won't be tagged because he plans on offering him a sweet deal to stay.
2. RS offers Dunta a big deal which RS assumes will be accepted.
3. Dunta turns deal down because he wants to leave Houston.
4. RS tags Dunta to keep him from leaving.
5. Dunta gets ticked because he was told he wouldn't be tagged and now he can't leave.
6. Dunta offers to end hold out if he won't be tagged in the future because then he'll have to opportunity to go.

None of this has any basis in truth or reality other than this is what it looks like to me looking at it from the outside. And the reason it looks like this to me is:

1. Dunta turned down a deal that is really more than he's worth (IF we have the right numbers about his deal.)
2. Dunta was extremely ticked off about getting tagged.
3. Dunta really wants assurances that he won't get tagged in the future.

So, he's not really interested in a deal that will keep him here. If he was, he would have taken that first deal that was offered.

That's why I think he wants to leave.
Excellent post. Rep your way. This is exactly what I have been saying, but you did a much better job breaking it down step by step. At first, the contract could have just been speculation. Now, it has been reported by numerous sources, and I think I remember reading even a guy from ESPN verifying the contract offer or quoting a figure very close to what was first rumored. I really believe it's just wishful thinking for the people that still believe Dunta wants to stay in Houston. IF Rick Smith said any of the things that have been rumored, it is almost a guarantee he said this because he believed the offer to Dunta was so good and so fair there was no way D-Rob would turn it down. What RS didn't realize is that Dunta wasn't going to accept because he is tired of being in Houston.
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