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Old 08-07-2009   #21
Jackie Chiles
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Default Re: Dunta speak about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Originally Posted by Polo View Post
That doesn't make any sense. Why would they be locked into franchising him when they have no idea what the future holds...

I think you missed my point which was that they are even leaving the door open for the possibility. If you think that a 23 million dollar offer was being generous or fair, why would you franchise the dude two years in a row paying him that much in two years...

Seems like the team is being especially stubborn, maybe trying to send a message...sorta like law enforcement not negotiating with criminals in hostage situations...

Why continue to franchise a guy? Seems like that only would upset the player and the teams pocketbook...

I dunno, just seems stubborn that they won't agree to not franchise him again when so many teams have done the same thing...
They want to retain some leverage. If Dunta's two options are a 2nd year under the franchise tag or to sign long term with the Texans their chances are better than him hitting FA. They are probably also being a bit stubborn so that when they use the tag in the future guys don't think they can influence the team with a holdout.
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Old 08-07-2009   #22
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Default Re: Dunta speak about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Originally Posted by Texan JBZ View Post
Because draft picks are too damn valuable. Only two players have ever got the guarantee that their current team wouldn't tag them two years in a row. In both cases, both players bolted and left the team without any compensation. Hell, Al Davis didn't even offer that type of deal to Nnamdi when the Raiders tagged him, so what makes Dumbta believe Rick Smith should give that type of deal to him?
Shaun Alexander also got that guarantee but he stayed with Seattle (unfortunately for them). Other than those three I cannot think of anyone else.
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Old 08-07-2009   #23
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Default Re: Dunta speak about Returning and the Franchise tag

It all just sounds to me like both sides are concerned about Dunta getting re-injured. The Texans don't want to lose him or give him a long-term deal until he proves he can stay healthy, and Dunta just wants a long-term deal, period.

He'll hold out until the first practice after preseason ends. Next offseason, the big problem will be that other teams ARE offering him big money. He'll probably get franchised again, although Smith doesn't know that yet, lol.
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Old 08-07-2009   #24
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Default Re: Dunta speak about Returning and the Franchise tag

IF i were Rick Smith i would agree to this deal. this team says again and again that anything other than the playoffs is a failure and i see this defense a lot more intimidating with DR in the backfield. lets be honest there is no way that Deltha O'Neal, Fred Bennett, a second year pro that didn't play CB his rookie year and two rooks stand a chance against an NFL passing attack. i don't care how good the pass rush or the LB corps are. and if he doesn't play well then don't resign him and draft someone. if he does, sign him long term.
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Old 08-07-2009   #25
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Default Re: Dunta speak about Returning and the Franchise tag

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IF i were Rick Smith i would agree to this deal. this team says again and again that anything other than the playoffs is a failure and i see this defense a lot more intimidating with DR in the backfield. lets be honest there is no way that Deltha O'Neal, Fred Bennett, a second year pro that didn't play CB his rookie year and two rooks stand a chance against an NFL passing attack. i don't care how good the pass rush or the LB corps are. and if he doesn't play well then don't resign him and draft someone. if he does, sign him long term.
Hes not sitting out the whole season though, those guys aren't going to have to play his position in the games that actually count.
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Old 08-07-2009   #26
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Default Re: Dunta speak about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Originally Posted by Texan JBZ View Post
Because draft picks are too damn valuable. Only two players have ever got the guarantee that their current team wouldn't tag them two years in a row. In both cases, both players bolted and left the team without any compensation. Hell, Al Davis didn't even offer that type of deal to Nnamdi when the Raiders tagged him, so what makes Dumbta believe Rick Smith should give that type of deal?
Because Dunta wants to leave next year giving the team no compensation? That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

If he means what he says that he will not show until the first week of the season, then Smith ought to pull the tag while his plane is on its way to Houston. Spend a year unemployed or at the vet minimum.
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Old 08-07-2009   #27
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Default Re: Dunta speak about Returning and the Franchise tag

I think that the reason that Dunta wants more than the 23.5 mill gaurantee long term contract is that he feels that he can be franchised for that amount over 2 years and is saying that the Texans brass is going to pay me that amount anyway over the next two years by placing the tag on him. So I believe that he is trying to use that as leverage against the Texans (salary cap space) to get a bigger gauranteed money over time. I.E.

W/Franchise Tag next two years = est 22.5 million

Long term contract = est 6 years 55 mill w/ 24.0 million gauranteed.

*I think what Dunta and his agent is looking at is the contract that DeAngelo Hall signed with the Redskins earlier this year which was 6yr 54 million w/22.5 gauranteed as a starting point in negotiations. Chris Gamble's deal was also for 6yr 53 million w/23 million gauranteed in 2008. All 3 of these guys were drafted in the first round of the 2004 draft Hall at #8, Dunta at #10 and Gamble at #28.

*Here is all 3 stats side by side.

D.H. GS - 72 - TKL - 301 Sacks - 1 FF - 3 INT - 22 PD - 57
C.G. - 77 - - 355 - 1 - 4 - 20 - 46
D.R . - 68 - - 329 - 4 - 5 - 13 - 45
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Old 08-07-2009   #28
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Default Re: Dunta speak about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Originally Posted by Jackie Chiles View Post
They want to retain some leverage. If Dunta's two options are a 2nd year under the franchise tag or to sign long term with the Texans their chances are better than him hitting FA. They are probably also being a bit stubborn so that when they use the tag in the future guys don't think they can influence the team with a holdout.
I'm all for that. It's time the vets learn that Casserly is gone.
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Old 08-07-2009   #29
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Default Re: Dunta speak about Returning and the Franchise tag

Maybe Smith is trying to make sure we get SOMETHING in return if DROB bolts. How many players have we just let walk? That's the only arguement that makes sense to me. Maybe both of them picked the wrong battle to fight cuz it's looking like a lose-lose proposition.
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Old 08-07-2009   #30
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Default Re: Dunta speak about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Originally Posted by Runner View Post
If being tagged two years in a row is so heavily favored toward Dunta, why isn't Smith willing to waive it next year?

Both these guys are being stubborn when it makes perfect sense for either side to give in.
Why does it make sense for either side to give in?

You've stated repeatedly (correctly I might add) that the terms of the long-term contract Dunta turned down are nothing more than speculation to those of us on this board. The widely held belief that Dunta's overrated and not worth the franchise tender amount is also only speculation, and the reality is nobody knows the Texans true belief about the value of Dunta Robinson if (and "if" is a huge component of this theory) he can return to pre-injury or almost pre-injury form.

Could it be that the Texans truly do view Dunta as a top-5 CB if he can get back to 95% (just to arbitrarily put a number on it) or better of his pre-injury form? Could it be that while Dunta may not be a top 5 "Shut-down" CB, that there are other skills he brings to the table in addition to a not quite "Shut-down" coverage ability? If the Texans are concerned about Dunta's recovery, but can make a 1-time payment of $10 Million to put themselves in a position to benefit from a full/close to full recovery, but risk zero beyond that if Dunta never fully recovers, why shouldn't they afford themselves that opportunity?

Nobody knows anything for sure - and I don't know what the Texans viewpoint of the value of a fully healthy Dunta is, but if the CBA negotiated by Dunta's union gives the Texans the clear-cut ability to pay handsomely for a year of his services, and then make a one-sided decision about whether they want him back, why should they not avail themselves of that? It's a smart business move, and a smart football move.

The risk is that Dunta holding out until after the last pre-season game costs them a victory or two in the first part of the season. If Smith/Kubiak/McNair genuinely view that as worth the risk (which is the $9.957 Million Dollar question), how can you trivialize that as mere stubborness?
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Old 08-07-2009   #31
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Default Re: Dunta speak about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Originally Posted by ChampionTexan
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If being tagged two years in a row is so heavily favored toward Dunta, why isn't Smith willing to waive it next year?

Both these guys are being stubborn when it makes perfect sense for either side to give in.
Why does it make sense for either side to give in?

You've stated repeatedly (correctly I might add) that the terms of the long-term contract Dunta turned down are nothing more than speculation to those of us on this board. The speculation that Dunta's overrated and not worth the franchise tender amount is also pretty much an opinion of outsiders, and the reality is nobody knows the Texans true belief about the value of Dunta Robinson if (and "if" is a huge component of this theory) he can return to pre-injury or almost pre-injury form.

Could it be that the Texans truly do view Dunta as a top-5 CB if he can get back to 95% (just to arbitrarily put a number on it) or better of his pre-injury form? Could it be that while Dunta may not be a top 5 "Shut-down" CB, that there are other skills he brings to the table in addition to a not quite "Shut-down" coverage ability? If the Texans are concerned about Dunta's recovery, but can make a 1-time payment of $10 Million to put themselves in a position to benefit from a full/close to full recovery, but risk zero beyond that if Dunta never fully recovers, why shouldn't they afford themselves that opportunity?

Nobody knows anything for sure - and I don't know what the Texans viewpoint of the value of a fully healthy Dunta is, but if the CBA negotiated by Dunta's union gives the Texans the clear-cut ability to pay handsomely for a year of his services, and then make a one-sided decision about whether they want him back, why should they not avail themselves of that. It's a smart business move, and a smart football move.

The risk is that Dunta holding out until after the last pre-season game costs them a victory or two in the first part of the season. If Smith/Kubiak/McNair genuinely view that as worth the risk (which is the $9.957 Million Dollar question), how can you trivialize that as mere stubborness?
Well, first of all I don't trivialize $10M. It's a lot for Dunta; it's a lot for the Texans to pay. However, it is also one of the few truly known variables in the situation. It is a given.

Other than that, you make a good point. I've listened to so much trashing of Dunta by fans I'm not really considering what the football minds might think. While I don't think Smith and Kubiak are perfect talent evaluators, I need to think about the view of the expert versus that of the hebetude.
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Old 08-07-2009   #32
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Default Re: Dunta speak about Returning and the Franchise tag

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It seems like removing the franchise tag is a simple thing. It only protects the Texans if he he plays very well this year and would then command a big free agent contract. If he only plays average, they wouldn't want to pay him $12M anyway. I hope Rick Smith isn't just being stubborn and trying to save face, or worse yet delaying the signing just to send a message.

It was also good to hear Dunta doesn't sound as irrational and spiteful as he's been painted here. He knows he needs to be in camp. He needs to consider pulling the trigger too. He and Smith are both being very stubborn.
I do not think a GM or a coach would ever tell a player that they are not worth franchising. Dunta is not an stupid and his agent is not a complete moron, could this be spin to put D-Rob into a more positive light because he has been taking a PR hit on message boards.

As far as the ICOU and Haynesworth go there were stipulations attached to if the franchise tag could be used again. ProBowl, so much of the Defensive plays and something else. I wonder if Dunta would accept any of these conditions like others have done, as he is put it.
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Old 08-07-2009   #33
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Default Re: Dunta speak about Returning and the Franchise tag

There is no reason to get involved in the details of all this. The bottom line is simple: Dunta says he wants to come back in time to be ready to play the first game. That is all I care about. I just want him to play the first game at the best of his ability.

The real question is, do you trust his judgment on how much work he needs to be ready? If you trust him to come in early enough to be ready -- even if that is next week -- then all is good. If you don't trust him to know how much work he needs to be ready, then the first game could be a bad game for him.

The next question is, do you trust the coaches to know whether he is ready? If the coaches think he isn't ready, they won't play him as if he were.

The last question is, can the rest of the team (including Bennett, Molden, Quin and MccCain) beat the Jets if the coaches decide Dunta isn't ready to play?

Personally, I think Dunta knows how to play and when he is ready. He is a leader for a reason; he loves to play. He also knows that this season is his league-wide interview. I think he will try to come in on time, and I think he will come in early enough to play well. I think he will come in at least a week earlier than John McClain predicted, because that is what is best for him.

If he doesn't come in on time, I trust the Texans coaches to recognize the fact. They will use him sparingly, and in situations where he is likely to succeed.

Finally, I like the Texans' mix of cornerbacks. I think Bennett, Molden and Quin together can help the team beat the Jets. The Titans game is a completely different story, but that will be a tough game anyway. Regardless, I think Dunta will be ready by then. That is over 6 weeks away, so it is possible Reeves will be back by then as well.

Basically, I'm an optimist. I think Dunta is willing to play when it counts and his holdout won't impact the team's win-loss record.
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Old 08-07-2009   #34
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Default Re: Dunta speak about Returning and the Franchise tag

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To me it seems more and more like the team is handling this the wrong way...

Why in the hell would you franchise a guy two years in a row that you think isn't worth a big contract...
A most excellent question...
...I await a reasonable answer from Mr. Smith.
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Old 08-07-2009   #35
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Default Re: Dunta speak about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Originally Posted by JimC
There is no reason to get involved in the details of all this. The bottom line is simple: Dunta says he wants to come back in time to be ready to play the first game. That is all I care about. I just want him to play the first game at the best of his ability.

The real question is, do you trust his judgment on how much work he needs to be ready? If you trust him to come in early enough to be ready -- even if that is next week -- then all is good. If you don't trust him to know how much work he needs to be ready, then the first game could be a bad game for him.

The next question is, do you trust the coaches to know whether he is ready? If the coaches think he isn't ready, they won't play him as if he were.

The last question is, can the rest of the team (including Bennett, Molden, Quin and MccCain) beat the Jets if the coaches decide Dunta isn't ready to play?

Personally, I think Dunta knows how to play and when he is ready. He is a leader for a reason; he loves to play. He also knows that this season is his league-wide interview. I think he will try to come in on time, and I think he will come in early enough to play well. I think he will come in at least a week earlier than John McClain predicted, because that is what is best for him.

If he doesn't come in on time, I trust the Texans coaches to recognize the fact. They will use him sparingly, and in situations where he is likely to succeed.

Finally, I like the Texans' mix of cornerbacks. I think Bennett, Molden and Quin together can help the team beat the Jets. The Titans game is a completely different story, but that will be a tough game anyway. Regardless, I think Dunta will be ready by then. That is over 6 weeks away, so it is possible Reeves will be back by then as well.

Basically, I'm an optimist. I think Dunta is willing to play when it counts and his holdout won't impact the team's win-loss record.
Nice second post.
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Old 08-07-2009   #36
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Default Re: Dunta speak about Returning and the Franchise tag

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To me it seems more and more like the team is handling this the wrong way...

Why in the hell would you franchise a guy two years in a row that you think isn't worth a big contract...
Because Dunta isn't running the organization, though I think he thinks he is.

Seriously though, I think Rick Smith isn't wanting to let go of players who were drafted highly...without getting compensation for them.

David Carr refused to be traded, so Rick Smith had to grant him a release.

Now Dunta's trying to do the same thing. He just wants out of Houston, and he wants to be a free agent. We used the franchise tag on him to keep him here.

I think Rick Smith is bound and determined that the players we draft, especially the ones like Dunta and OD and DeMeco--guys the Texans did a good job of picking in the draft(s)--that those guys are not going to start with us and then go off as free agents and make someone else better.

If so, that's a pretty good way to retain talent or at least get something in return if they want to leave. Whether that is a good strategy in the long run or not, I don't know. It could make future drafted players skiddish to come here, thinking they are doomed to play here forever with no easy "out."

Going to be interesting to see how this shakes out.
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Old 08-07-2009   #37
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Default Re: Dunta speak about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Originally Posted by Wolf6151 View Post
Maybe we could trade Dunta to New Orleans for Malcolm Jenkins who's holding out on N.O. training camp and not happy with their 1st round offer. Opinions?
a) CB is more of a 'need' than WR. we don't need him.
b) Trade one malcontent who has an NFL resume for one who hasn't played a down?
I'll have to pass on that.
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Old 08-07-2009   #38
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Default Re: Dunta speak about Returning and the Franchise tag

I'd like to see Rick Smith's spreadsheets.
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Old 08-07-2009   #39
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Default Re: Dunta speak about Returning and the Franchise tag

Quote:
Originally Posted by GP View Post
Because Dunta isn't running the organization, though I think he thinks he is.

Seriously though, I think Rick Smith isn't wanting to let go of players who were drafted highly...without getting compensation for them.
You may be over-analyzing the situation. I think the explanation is simple: the Texans, as an organization, don't want to create a policy that gives franchise players an incentive to hold out.

Right now, Dunta has nothing to gain by holding out; neither does the next franchise player. If he can get some kind of guarantee that the franchise tag will only be used once, then the next franchised player will have a reason to hold out to get the same guarantee.

I don't know who the team's next franchise player will be (Mario? Andre Johnson? Shaub?), but whoever it is I don't want them to have anything to gain by holding out. I want them in camp making our team as good as it can be... I bet Smith feels the same way.
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Old 08-07-2009   #40
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Default Re: Dunta speak about Returning and the Franchise tag

Here is a statement that Dunta made in the Solomon artical:

He said I wasn’t a franchise tag-worthy player,” Robinson said. “If that’s the case, then why pay me franchise-level money? And possibly two years in a row? Doesn’t make sense to me.”

Everyone raise their hand that believes Rick Smith said that.
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