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Old 08-13-2009   #201
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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It's fun arguing with yourself......just as long as it doesn't turn physically violent.
I have fun with my self all the time. Arguing, I mean. Was not sure if I needed to clarify....
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Old 08-13-2009   #202
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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I have fun with my self all the time. Arguing, I mean. Was not sure if I needed to clarify....
Wise to do so, especially with TB running around here
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Old 08-13-2009   #203
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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I have fun with my self all the time. Arguing, I mean. Was not sure if I needed to clarify....
Probably wise you did, it can take years of posting to live down certain posts around here. LOL
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Old 08-13-2009   #204
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Originally Posted by Specnatz View Post
1 year (this year) = $10 million

2nd year (next year franchise price tag) = $12 million


so two years would be $22 mil

Others fail to see what runner was saying so he thought he would argue with himself. I guess he could not find a
actually, Runner won't concede or can't comprehend the nuances that some of us are arguing. He is trying to argue, it seems to me, that the team having the option to franchise Dunta again next year = the same cost as signing him to a long term contract. That argument, in fact, is way off base. However, instead of acknowledging posts which counter that argument, he performs a one man play mocking any counter argument to his.
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Old 08-13-2009   #205
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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actually, Runner won't concede
I can concede. I conceded on the likelihood of Dunta getting a Gamble like offer a few posts back after I argued against it for a month or more. I'll change my opinion based on new evidence or a convincing case made for the counterpoint. I'm not likely to change it for bluster, made up "facts", or wishes.


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actually, Runner won't ... can't comprehend the nuances that some of us are arguing. He is trying to argue, it seems to me, that the team having the option to franchise Dunta again next year = the same cost as signing him to a long term contract.
Funny you say I can't comprehend something, since you are the one saying that I am arguing the part I've bolded in your quote. I have never said that, and it is most definitely not my point. I think your comprehension needs some work in this case.

My point is that Gamble type money is a lot for Dunta for a long term contract. Separate from that, $22M for Dunta is a lot of money for two years. Both of these options Rick Smith seems to think are ok - i.e. he made the Gamble offer, and he is reserving the right to franchise Dunta two years in a row.

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However, instead of acknowledging posts which counter that argument, he performs a one man play mocking any counter argument to his.
This gets to the point. I am not mocking posts counter to my argument, because that wasn't my argument. It was a strawman built by you and attributed to me.

I am mocking posts that have to twist what I say and put words into my mouth so that they can "prove I'm wrong". That was the point of my play, in case you still missed it.
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Old 08-13-2009   #206
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

I get what Runner is saying: R. Smith wants the option to either 1) pay D.Rob $23 million guaranteed, or 2) $22 million for two franchise tag years.

Either way, Runner believes that this is probably too much to pay a non-elite CB like D.Rob, but obviously R. Smith does not see it this way or he would not have offered the original guarantee and would provide D.Rob with the confirmation of not franchising him next season.

Back to the point of this thread, I do believe that #23 will be playing the first game. He's not going to throw away $600,00+ a game in order to prove a point that he's already lost. R. Smith holds all the cards. It's his deck right now.
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Old 08-13-2009   #207
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Actually the use of the word 'Coon ass' is derogative against both 'race' and 'ethnicity' alike. As mentioned before, it is used to connect a certain group of people to certain attributes so as to dehumanize them.



This is a case of what is called Orientalism. How an ethnic group embraces others perception of self, making it part of their own identity. Coon-ass, N-worders are examples of this. Actually, post-colonial nationalist India is pretty much based on how India was seen by Great Britan during to colonial period, embraced and institutionalized.
This makes my Liberal Arts (not political liberal) heart smile.
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Old 08-14-2009   #208
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
I get what Runner is saying: R. Smith wants the option to either 1) pay D.Rob $23 million guaranteed, or 2) $22 million for two franchise tag years.

Either way, Runner believes that this is probably too much to pay a non-elite CB like D.Rob, but obviously R. Smith does not see it this way or he would not have offered the original guarantee and would provide D.Rob with the confirmation of not franchising him next season.

Back to the point of this thread, I do believe that #23 will be playing the first game. He's not going to throw away $600,00+ a game in order to prove a point that he's already lost. R. Smith holds all the cards. It's his deck right now.

Ultimately, we do not know a good value for DR because he hasn't played any snaps 100% since 2007. If he plays a much better 2009, the Texans may actually want to pay him more than $23 m or franchise tag him again, especially with escalating salaries at premium positions.
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Old 08-14-2009   #209
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

Yes, it's hard to know what Dunta is worth. It appears that the Texans think he might be worth a lot to them, judging by their actions. They seem to value him more than many fans. This will be an intetesting season to see what Dunta has got to offer.
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Old 08-14-2009   #210
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

I dunno why to you guys keep arguing about how Robinson is upset with the
money and/or the terms of the deal he's been offered by the Texans so far ?
Doesn't it seem more and more apparent to you that he doesn't want to be in Houston and/or he wants to be in another city for whatever reason(s) which have nothing at all to do with money, contract terms, etc. ?
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Old 08-14-2009   #211
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Originally Posted by nunusguy View Post
I dunno why to you guys keep arguing about how Robinson is upset with the
money and/or the terms of the deal he's been offered by the Texans so far ?
Doesn't it seem more and more apparent to you that he doesn't want to be in Houston and/or he wants to be in another city for whatever reason(s) which have nothing at all to do with money, contract terms, etc. ?
If all he was upset about was the city, why hasn't he signed the tender and shown up to camp, since there's absolutely nothing that's negotiable other than possibly the 2010 franchise tag?
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Old 08-14-2009   #212
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Yes, it's hard to know what Dunta is worth. It appears that the Texans think he might be worth a lot to them, judging by their actions. They seem to value him more than many fans. This will be an intetesting season to see what Dunta has got to offer.
& that's what people aren't looking at enough imo. The texans actions seem to suggest that they think he's going to be able to come back as strong as he was prior to the injury. With the possibility of this team being the best he's ever been apart of pass rush wise & him being back 100%, i have to say based on his production in years past I think he's gonna have a great season for us this year. I don't know what people are looking at as far as his stats go, but his look fine to me up until 2007 when he got hurt. His ints went down from his rookie year simply b/c we've essentially had a pass rush since 2004 & teams had no need to really throw his way....not when they could get what they wanted off of P-burnt, Faggins, Sanders & a young Bennett on the other side.

Another thing is, I don't wanna hear this crap about about him not having any pro bowls or MVPS thereby the texans shouldn't even consider vacating the franchise tag option for next year. we all know he got robbed his rookie year & up until last year, meco didn't have a pro bowl under his belt. If this were going on with him at the beginning of last year, would anybody be advocating we let him go or questioning his worth to this franchise? I doubt it. good db's don't grow on trees. Both sides need to make some concessions & get him into camp. Dunta has already stated what he wants, The FO is just trying to play hardball.
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Old 08-14-2009   #213
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Originally Posted by ChampionTexan View Post
If all he was upset about was the city, why hasn't he signed the tender and shown up to camp, since there's absolutely nothing that's negotiable other than possibly the 2010 franchise tag?
Think about it... why would he give in (sign the tender and show up for camp) while facing the one tool the Texans have preventing his wish to leave the team?

It may be the only thing negotiable, but for a player wanting out, it is the most important thing to negotiate. If he doesn't punish the Texans the only way he can (by holding out) then he might get the franchise tag -- the only thing between him and a clean getaway -- again. All Dunta can do is give the Texans the bare minimum for their dollar and be disgruntled while he does so. This happens just about every year in the NFL.

I am past Dunta at this point. I just hope the team works out deals with Ryans and Daniels.
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Old 08-14-2009   #214
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Originally Posted by Texans Chick
Ultimately, we do not know a good value for DR because he hasn't played any snaps 100% since 2007. If he plays a much better 2009, the Texans may actually want to pay him more than $23 m or franchise tag him again, especially with escalating salaries at premium positions.
Fan attitude is a poor barometer of a player's worth. When the team makes an offer and then franchises a player, we have at least one point of reference to speak of D.Rob's worth. Obviously, the FO disagrees with you or they would not have offered $23 million and a franchise tag of almost $10 million.

Who knows what he would have been offered as a FA. That is nothing but fan WAGs at this point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nunusguy
I dunno why to you guys keep arguing about how Robinson is upset with the
money and/or the terms of the deal he's been offered by the Texans so far ?
Doesn't it seem more and more apparent to you that he doesn't want to be in Houston and/or he wants to be in another city for whatever reason(s) which have nothing at all to do with money, contract terms, etc. ?
D.Rob has always been outspoken, and up to this point, he has said nothing but wanting to stay in Houston. He has never dissed the city or Texans fans, so it's pure speculation on everyone's part to assume that he doesn't want to be here.

This is business, though, and it seems that Texans fans are wringing hands over a situation that happens to most teams over time. We'll see how it plays out, but #23 will be a Texans player in 2009 so I'm gonna' wish him the best as it benefits our team.
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Old 08-14-2009   #215
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Originally Posted by nunusguy View Post
I dunno why to you guys keep arguing about how Robinson is upset with the
money and/or the terms of the deal he's been offered by the Texans so far ?
Doesn't it seem more and more apparent to you that he doesn't want to be in Houston and/or he wants to be in another city for whatever reason(s) which have nothing at all to do with money, contract terms, etc. ?
Absolutely not. I have seen nothing personally that tells me he wants to go elsewhere. He just wants the security of a long term deal with $ he think he is worth. I interpret the info we know + what is speculated as "reliable info" such as the Gamble type contract as DR thinks he is going to be a healthy enough starter that deserves his kind of deal. He also thinks that his efforts to rehab and come back last year to start should be worth re-imbursing him for. Texans seem to think maybe you are healthy and we just want to see and on the latter, we appreciate your hard work but don't forget we paid you to rehab. Dunta thinks this will probably not be his last contract but the one most like to put him in a great financial set up.

Something else that for the most part is not being focused on is the team not want to give up 2nd year tag as may be precedent setting.
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Old 08-14-2009   #216
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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& that's what people aren't looking at enough imo. The texans actions seem to suggest that they think he's going to be able to come back as strong as he was prior to the injury. With the possibility of this team being the best he's ever been apart of pass rush wise & him being back 100%, i have to say based on his production in years past I think he's gonna have a great season for us this year. I don't know what people are looking at as far as his stats go, but his look fine to me up until 2007 when he got hurt. His ints went down from his rookie year simply b/c we've essentially had a pass rush since 2004 & teams had no need to really throw his way....not when they could get what they wanted off of P-burnt, Faggins, Sanders & a young Bennett on the other side.

Another thing is, I don't wanna hear this crap about about him not having any pro bowls or MVPS thereby the texans shouldn't even consider vacating the franchise tag option for next year. we all know he got robbed his rookie year & up until last year, meco didn't have a pro bowl under his belt. If this were going on with him at the beginning of last year, would anybody be advocating we let him go or questioning his worth to this franchise? I doubt it. good db's don't grow on trees. Both sides need to make some concessions & get him into camp. Dunta has already stated what he wants, The FO is just trying to play hardball.
Wow, Mr T, where do I begin?

*There is NO evidence he will be 100% healthy, but Texans are willing to pay him top 5 $ or $23million guaranteed plus more over a long term deal. Dunta WAS offered a long term security contract from info provided but he declined. Seems like the Texans have compromised. Has DR?

*Rookie year was very good, but how much do you reward anyone in any profession whose productivity decreases and/or is inconsistent as his?

* How can you compare Ryans who never misses a play let alone a game to DR's playing time?

*Would this be going on with him at beginning of last season? Maybe not but at that time, he still had another injury plagued year to go. You seem to be downplaying the last two years. I can hear you telling your employer "You know boss, due to my injuries the last two years I have offered you minimal productivity. I want a huge raise based on what I did before that injured time." Well good luck with that.

* If you are going to bring up how good DR looked playing across from inferior CB, you then have to agree that his rookie year stats were pumped up because teams went at him rather that who played the other side that year.

Sorry, but you come across as A DR fan not willing to look at the whole picture. "I like him. I want him to play so pony up Texans".
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Old 08-14-2009   #217
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Fan attitude is a poor barometer of a player's worth. When the team makes an offer and then franchises a player, we have at least one point of reference to speak of D.Rob's worth. Obviously, the FO disagrees with you or they would not have offered $23 million and a franchise tag of almost $10 million.

Who knows what he would have been offered as a FA. That is nothing but fan WAGs at this point.



D.Rob has always been outspoken, and up to this point, he has said nothing but wanting to stay in Houston. He has never dissed the city or Texans fans, so it's pure speculation on everyone's part to assume that he doesn't want to be here.

This is business, though, and it seems that Texans fans are wringing hands over a situation that happens to most teams over time. We'll see how it plays out, but #23 will be a Texans player in 2009 so I'm gonna' wish him the best as it benefits our team.
That is all very true. He's not said anything other than that he's a team player and he wants to get back to the Texans. What he's said and what he's done however seem at odds.

When I look at this I see Dunta saying that he wants to stay in Houston BUT I also see widely reported that he turned down money that would have made him a very highly paid player at his position. I believe that I saw the words "top 5" used at some point.

Now if this can be relied upon then why would he do that? The obvious answer (assuming he's telling the truth about wanting to stay) is that he thinks he's worth more than that. If that's the case then he is wrong.

If he's got the idea in his head that he's worth being paid like the top 1 or 2 CB's in the game and is willing to hold out all of training camp...

...following a season where he was injured for the most part and only got on the field at the end playing at less than 100%

...Prior to a season where our defense will change (supposedly a great deal)

...Prior to a season where he expects to earn a long-term contract that's bigger than the big contract he turned down and so will need to play at a very high level

I'm sorry but the man is nuts. He's turned down a contract that was equal to what he might have expected if he'd played well for all of 2008 and now seems to be dead-set on doing everything in his power to hurt his ability to truly earn that same kind of contract in 2009. If he's telling the truth about wanting to be in Houston he's got a strange way of showing it.

Of course if he's telling us what we want to hear all while trying everything in his power to work his way out of town (with little regard to what it might cost you in the short term) then everything he's done makes perfect sense. Turn down the generous offer you got from your current team, hold out and demand that they agree not to franchise you again in 2010. If they agree then great, you're out of here the moment you become a free agent. If they don't then you play for your 9.whatever million and try again next year. You've lost nothing for trying. They franchise you again and you've made your money (but of course they won't) and if they don't you leave having charged them 9.something million for your last mediocre season there.

Dunta is a competitor in the purest form. He was the one face you could always see the pain of a loss on every single time it happened. He couldn't stand to sit back and watch David Carr play like crap and smile his way back to the locker room. Dunta had to speak up because I think losing kills that man inside. I feel that he wants to leave because he wants to win and I don't think he's sold on any of the changes the Texans have made this off-season. I think he'd take half the money we offered him to go to the Patriots just to win regularly.

That's what I think.
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Old 08-14-2009   #218
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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Wow, Mr T, where do I begin?

*There is NO evidence he will be 100% healthy, but Texans are willing to pay him top 5 $ or $23million guaranteed plus more over a long term deal. Dunta WAS offered a long term security contract from info provided but he declined. Seems like the Texans have compromised. Has DR?

*Rookie year was very good, but how much do you reward anyone in any profession whose productivity decreases and/or is inconsistent as his?

* How can you compare Ryans who never misses a play let alone a game to DR's playing time?

*Would this be going on with him at beginning of last season? Maybe not but at that time, he still had another injury plagued year to go. You seem to be downplaying the last two years. I can hear you telling your employer "You know boss, due to my injuries the last two years I have offered you minimal productivity. I want a huge raise based on what I did before that injured time." Well good luck with that.

* If you are going to bring up how good DR looked playing across from inferior CB, you then have to agree that his rookie year stats were pumped up because teams went at him rather that who played the other side that year.

Sorry, but you come across as A DR fan not willing to look at the whole picture. "I like him. I want him to play so pony up Texans".
The comparison to Meco was only in the sense that both are unhappy with their contract situations & prior to 2008, every texan fan knew that Meco was worth more than what his accolades would suggest. I was suggesting that If meco has another year like he had last year,down according to most, & he decided to take the same course of action dunta has, i seriously doubt some in here would feel the same way about him as they've come to feel about dunta.

& what are you talking about? The only games Dunta's missed in his career are all related to the same injury at the tail end of 07 & into 08. Every year prior to that, he was in the line up & starting. straight from the texans website: Pay special attention to the "GS" category.
Year Team G GS tckls solo ast sacks int yds avg lg td
2004 HOU 16 16 88 74 14 3 6 146 24.3 61 0
2005 HOU 16 16 87 68 19 1 1 1 1.0 1 0
2006 HOU 16 16 83 70 13 0 2 9 4.5 9 1
2007 HOU 9 9 35 30 5 0 2 6 3.0 10 0
2008 HOU 11 6 38 35 3 0 2 0 0.0 0 0

He doesn't have a history of missing games because of injury, just of being nicked up........find me a player in the NFL who doesn't. So yeah, excuse me if i give the guy a pass on injury issues. 2nd, he busted his hump to come back ahead of schedule & played pretty well too boot @ his self-proclaimed 85%. You go back & look at fred bennett's stats from last year, they compare very favorably & yet some in here think bennett is going to ascend as our #1 guy...shaky confidence & all & cast aside dunta. Really?

& yeah, you're right, there's no hard evidence to suggest he's 100%..but there's also no evidence to suggest he's not. I do know i've heard/read him say that his legs are stronger than they were last year during his comeback & the texans obviously want him back most likely as a starter judging by the money they've offered him. So i'll ask u, what does that "evidence" suggest? surely not status quo or regression.
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Old 08-14-2009   #219
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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I dunno why to you guys keep arguing about how Robinson is upset with the
money and/or the terms of the deal he's been offered by the Texans so far ?
Doesn't it seem more and more apparent to you that he doesn't want to be in Houston and/or he wants to be in another city for whatever reason(s) which have nothing at all to do with money, contract terms, etc. ?
I think it just boils down to money. Players pretty much consider themselves NFL players first, and "team colors" second. I remember when Bruce Matthews took an agent called Howard "hold em out" Slusher and didn't report to camp on time. There were fans calling into sports radio and crying but that was before the internet and the extreeeeeeeme fandom and extreeeeeeme interpinion. When he finally returned to the team they all called him "moneybags" and he went on to become a wildly popular player. Not saying Dunta will ever become anything near as good as Bruce was, but I guess I'm saying that judging a guy on his team contract negotiations isn't worth the time and effort to get all riled up if you axe me.
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Old 08-14-2009   #220
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Default Re: Dunta speaks about Returning and the Franchise tag

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I think it just boils down to money. Players pretty much consider themselves NFL players first, and "team colors" second. I remember when Bruce Matthews took an agent called Howard "hold em out" Slusher and didn't report to camp on time. There were fans calling into sports radio and crying but that was before the internet and the extreeeeeeeme fandom and extreeeeeeme interpinion. When he finally returned to the team they all called him "moneybags" and he went on to become a wildly popular player. Not saying Dunta will ever become anything near as good as Bruce was, but I guess I'm saying that judging a guy on his team contract negotiations isn't worth the time and effort to get all riled up if you axe me.
yep. Without knowing the EXACT details of the contract, and without knowing the EXACT thoughts of the FO and the EXACT thoughts of D.Rob, there seems to be a lot of emotion-based speculation going on.

But hey, it's a message board and that's what it's about. I'm just not going to demonize a guy without knowing the full truth, and I'm not talking trash about a player that I've always rooted for and will most likely root for this season. I'm not taking sides, simply because it's a blind pissing match to do so at this point in time. JMO.
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