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Old 07-23-2009   #1
barrett
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Default BRB's 4-3 "Under" in detail

The guys over at BattleRedBlog.com have posted a very in depth description of the 4-3 "Under" defensive scheme that they believe we will be running this season.

http://www.battleredblog.com/2009/7/...uction-the-4-3

I highly recommend checking it out. The more you know about the team, the more fun it is to follow them on their rise to eventual success. It goes into great detail about each position in the scheme and how the players on our roster can succeed in those spots.

Coincidentally, Chester Pitts mentions in an interview on 610 that the Texans will be running this scheme alot this year. He seems to think Cushing will excel in this system.

I've also heard it mentioned on two other blogs in the last 2 days. I don't know when this information came about but apparently we have found some insight into the type of D we could be running other than "AGRESSIVE".

Go Texans!
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Old 07-23-2009   #2
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Default Re: BRB's 4-3 "Under" in detail

Great article, this scheme shows why getting Antonio Smith and Brian Cushing fits really well.
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Old 07-23-2009   #3
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Default Re: BRB's 4-3 "Under" in detail

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A center-guard double team would require the guard to cross his face and leave the 1 technique in open space, while a guard-tackle double team would leave Mario Williams free. Both unfavorable
is it really that unfavourable when we dont have an impact 1 tech DT who can speed past a G in open space?
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Old 07-23-2009   #4
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Default Re: BRB's 4-3 "Under" in detail

The defense I like best is "Hike the ball. Tackle the ball."
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Old 07-23-2009   #5
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Default Re: BRB's 4-3 "Under" in detail

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is it really that unfavourable when we dont have an impact 1 tech DT who can speed past a G in open space?
Actually, I think the disadvantage to not having a legit 1-tech would be in run defense as opposed to pass defense.

DelJuan is the truest version of a 1-tech we have, but he's more adept at getting into the backfield than taking up blockers. So, in this scheme we are essentially lining up with 2 speedy DT that can get into the backfield. In this way, the center wil be forced to choose whether he blocks Amobi or DelJuan, allowing the other a 1-on-1 match-up which should allow them to get into the backfield after the QB.

In the passing game that will be adventageous for us since both are (supposedly) able to get into the backfield. But, in the running game this could present problems if one of our DT can't tie up blockers to free up the guys behind him.
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Old 07-23-2009   #6
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Default Re: BRB's 4-3 "Under" in detail

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Originally Posted by nero THE zero View Post
Actually, I think the disadvantage to not having a legit 1-tech would be in run defense as opposed to pass defense.

DelJuan is the truest version of a 1-tech we have, but he's more adept at getting into the backfield than taking up blockers. So, in this scheme we are essentially lining up with 2 speedy DT that can get into the backfield. In this way, the center wil be forced to choose whether he blocks Amobi or DelJuan, allowing the other a 1-on-1 match-up which should allow them to get into the backfield after the QB.

In the passing game that will be adventageous for us since both are (supposedly) able to get into the backfield. But, in the running game this could present problems if one of our DT can't tie up blockers to free up the guys behind him.
It sure would be nice if Frank Okam would all of the sudden catch fire and become all he can be. On paper he appears to be exactly what is needed at this position. On paper.

Last edited by MojoMan; 07-23-2009 at 12:26 PM.
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Old 07-23-2009   #7
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Default Re: BRB's 4-3 "Under" in detail

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Originally Posted by barrett View Post
Coincidentally, Chester Pitts mentions in an interview on 610 that the Texans will be running this scheme alot this year. He seems to think Cushing will excel in this system.
I was watching my recording of the January Rose Bowl this week between USC and Penn State and USC ran this quite a bit with Cushing right down on the line of scrimmage but playing upright like a 3-4 OLB. Anyway I gather this is the role the Texans envision for him since he is a relatively big backer even for a SAM who has the kind of size and strength to match up against a TE blocking down on him.
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Old 07-23-2009   #8
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Default Re: BRB's 4-3 "Under" in detail

Here's a link to some more info on the 4-3 under. On paper, it looks like it really fits our personnel. If ran properly, we might see a HUGE improvement on the D side of the ball.
http://www.trojanfootballanalysis.co...z_schemes.html
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Old 07-23-2009   #9
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Default Re: BRB's 4-3 "Under" in detail

We had quite a few defensive snaps with the under front; successful ones with Ryans, Bentley and Adibi in there together.

Cushing will be faster than Bentley, but he must guard against screen passes and short passes when the TE releases. Otherwise, there might be unhappy fans!

The thing though, when the opponent runs a spread offense, we would go to our nickel package, and Cushing may not see the field.

Maybe they will go to a 3-3 in a zone blitz, then Cushing can be of good use again.
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Old 07-23-2009   #10
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Default Re: BRB's 4-3 "Under" in detail

What are some examples of us running it last year? I'd like to go back and re-re-watch. Certain games or certain situations in specific games?

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Old 07-23-2009   #11
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Default Re: BRB's 4-3 "Under" in detail

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
The thing though, when the opponent runs a spread offense, we would go to our nickel package, and Cushing may not see the field.
According to who? From everything I've read his coverage skills have been lauded and I've gotten the impression that he will rarely leave the field.
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Old 07-23-2009   #12
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Default Re: BRB's 4-3 "Under" in detail

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Originally Posted by nero THE zero View Post
According to who? From everything I've read his coverage skills have been lauded and I've gotten the impression that he will rarely leave the field.
Same. I expect him to be a 3 down player, as 1st round picks should be.
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Old 07-23-2009   #13
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Default Re: BRB's 4-3 "Under" in detail

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What are some examples of us running it last year? I'd like to go back and re-re-watch. Certain games or certain situations in specific games?

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Check the games with Adibi in there; but NOT the Indy nor the Packer games.
They had multi-receiver sets a lot in those games.

We were still in many under fronts, just without the SAM (Bentley) 'cause we were in nickel a lot.
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Old 07-23-2009   #14
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Default Re: BRB's 4-3 "Under" in detail

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Originally Posted by rmartin65 View Post
Same. I expect him to be a 3 down player, as 1st round picks should be.
There had been LBs who were drafted higher than Cushing that didn't even start their first year, so it's not a big deal that Cushing is not their in obvious passing situation on third downs; especially when we're in our nickel package.
Right now I see Ryans and Adibi best fit for that.

Like I said, we were in some 3-3 last year and came in with zone blitzes that included the LBs; in those instances, I can see Cushing on the field.
We may see some 3-4 even, from what have been reported.

USC switch to a 3-4 very often in passing situations.
A lot of time, Cushing would be rushing the passer.

He will need a lot of reps in coverage.
You just need to check out one game, against Arizona, to know that.

He's just not use to it, that's all, not that he doesn't have the flexibility or the hands, anything like that. He just needs time.
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Old 07-23-2009   #15
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Default Re: BRB's 4-3 "Under" in detail

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Originally Posted by barrett View Post
What are some examples of us running it last year? I'd like to go back and re-re-watch. Certain games or certain situations in specific games?

I'm a sponge!
You can see it in the Monday Night game. It almost looks like there's a 5-2 being run because Bentley is on the line a lot.

The strange thing to me when I was watching that, is that it looked like Bentley was on the WEAK side and Adibi was on the Strong side (with the TE.) I didn't think that was the way the 4-3 Under was supposed to be lined up.

But it's been a while since I was able to look at that game (and it's buried on my DVR's old drive and I can't get to it now.)
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Old 07-24-2009   #16
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Default Re: BRB's 4-3 "Under" in detail

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Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
You can see it in the Monday Night game. It almost looks like there's a 5-2 being run because Bentley is on the line a lot.

The strange thing to me when I was watching that, is that it looked like Bentley was on the WEAK side and Adibi was on the Strong side (with the TE.) I didn't think that was the way the 4-3 Under was supposed to be lined up.

But it's been a while since I was able to look at that game (and it's buried on my DVR's old drive and I can't get to it now.)
Sometimes we don't change when their TE moves around.
Sometimes the offense just have a 5-man line, the TE could have moved out to the slot or somewhere.
It's also possible that you saw a 2-TE set?

We do use Adibi once a while on the LOS strong side.
We do use Bentley occasionally on the LOS weakside (but more than using Adibi strong side, I believe.)
Overall, we use Bentley more as a SAM, and Adibi more as a WILL.
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Old 07-24-2009   #17
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Default Re: BRB's 4-3 "Under" in detail

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
Sometimes we don't change when their TE moves around.
Sometimes the offense just have a 5-man line, the TE could have moved out to the slot or somewhere.
It's also possible that you saw a 2-TE set?

We do use Adibi once a while on the LOS strong side.
We do use Bentley occasionally on the LOS weakside (but more than using Adibi strong side, I believe.)
Overall, we use Bentley more as a SAM, and Adibi more as a WILL.
I was specifically looking at which LB was lining up over the TE. And I ws surprised to see that we weren't really lining up that way. It really looked to me like our base was a 4-3 variation where the SAM was lining up as a stand-up lineman so that it looked almost like a 5-2. The Will and Mike were lined up more over the guards (but set back.) And it was Adibi who was consistently on the strong side. Not because of shifts or 2 TE sets or anything like that.

It was a surprise to me to see that.

In the second half, Bentley started coming out (because he got tweaked or something) and Greenwood took Adibi's spot and Adibi moved up to the line in Bentley's spot. They also started playing more of a standard 4-3 with the 3 LB's closer together set back from the line.

If you've got the game available, take a look and verify that I was seeing what I thought I was seeing. Maybe I was hallucinating.
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Old 07-24-2009   #18
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Default Re: BRB's 4-3 "Under" in detail

Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBar View Post
Here's a link to some more info on the 4-3 under. On paper, it looks like it really fits our personnel. If ran properly, we might see a HUGE improvement on the D side of the ball.
http://www.trojanfootballanalysis.co...z_schemes.html
Wow that was super informative! Thanks Doc! One of the most enlightening moments of this offseason for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
We had quite a few defensive snaps with the under front; successful ones with Ryans, Bentley and Adibi in there together.

Cushing will be faster than Bentley, but he must guard against screen passes and short passes when the TE releases. Otherwise, there might be unhappy fans!

The thing though, when the opponent runs a spread offense, we would go to our nickel package, and Cushing may not see the field.

Maybe they will go to a 3-3 in a zone blitz, then Cushing can be of good use again.
So one of the main things I learned from that great link that Doc sent me is that the real key to this defense is how consistent it is. It seams like if the offense is in a 2 WR, 3 WR, 2 TE or Pro set it all seems to maintain the same 11 guys. I know it's theoretical but it looks like Cushing could stay on that TE in man to man and if it switches to a 3 WR. It appears that he only comes out in a spead set with 4 WR's.
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Old 07-24-2009   #19
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Default Re: BRB's 4-3 "Under" in detail

Sounds like the 43Under is going to fit Cushing, Adibi and Smith perfectly. Of course Mario too but I doubt I'm the only one who believes Mario Williams is a freight train in any scheme. Ryans is a tackling machine but its sounds like MLB requires a little more "knock you the hell out" attitude than he's ever shown. As long as Dunta shows up I think CB will be fine (and probably even if he doesn't). Two biggest concerns are still safety and DT. Surprise!!! Doesn't sound like safety is more involved with run stopping/containing plays than coverage but when Eugene Wilson is the best coverage man we've got in the back...well...I think that says it all. DT is overloaded with that dirty "p" word. Amobi, Okam, is Travis Johnson still a first round pick? ONE of them has to show up or I think this defense will be marginally better. Hopefully fitting the defense to the DEs and LBs will be enough to counter the mediocre play I somewhat expect from the DTs. Overall I think the defense has improved but anxiously await getting to see it.
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Old 07-26-2009   #20
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Default Re: BRB's 4-3 "Under" in detail

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
I was specifically looking at which LB was lining up over the TE. And I ws surprised to see that we weren't really lining up that way. It really looked to me like our base was a 4-3 variation where the SAM was lining up as a stand-up lineman so that it looked almost like a 5-2. The Will and Mike were lined up more over the guards (but set back.) And it was Adibi who was consistently on the strong side. Not because of shifts or 2 TE sets or anything like that.

It was a surprise to me to see that.

In the second half, Bentley started coming out (because he got tweaked or something) and Greenwood took Adibi's spot and Adibi moved up to the line in Bentley's spot. They also started playing more of a standard 4-3 with the 3 LB's closer together set back from the line.

If you've got the game available, take a look and verify that I was seeing what I thought I was seeing. Maybe I was hallucinating.
When I have the time, I will.
Actually, I've recheked the first quarter.
(But I have also in the middle of studying the Packers game.
Maybe I will just keep an eye for examples in that game.)

In the first quarter of the MNF game, I believe we employed the "under" fronts 3 times with Bentley close to the LOS. (With one lineman shifting a little.)

On 2-14 of the first drive (false start on the Jags)

Toward the end of the first when the Jags started out from their one.
Both times were on first down.
One resulted in a 4 yard run by MJD (tackled by Adibi & Ferguson).
The other resulted in no gain by Taylor (tackled by Bentley & Weaver).

Instances where I migh have seen Adibi on the strong side, or Bentley on the weakside would find the Texans in a different front.

I think we used the "over" front and the "miami" fronts more then the "under" and other fronts (throughout the season.)

Especially in the first quarter of this game.
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