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Old 07-13-2009   #1
Texans_Chick
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Default KC Joyner Talks Texans, Duane Brown

KC Joyner aka the Football Scientist of NYT NFL Blog, ESPN insider, etc, just put up his Houston Texans Lab Results.

He basically reviews tapes of all the teams and then puts all that information together for his book Scientific Football. He is revealing some of his metrics on the NYT Fifth Down blog and asked me to ask him a question.

I gave him a bunch of questions to choose from and he chose those. I am hoping to get follow ups for the rest of the questions on my Chron blog.

I strongly suggest you go over there and read it. I also suggest that you go over there and leave some intelligent thoughtful comments about the post. For two reasons:

1. I believe that if we are to encourage thoughtful analysis of the team, we need to contribute to it. News is a marketplace. If writers know that if they write another Favre piece and it will get lots of page hits, then they will write a lot of fluffy garbage. Comments given to thoughtful Texans talk will encourage more of that sort of talk happening.

2. It's nice to leave comments on blog posts about subjects you have an interest in because those blog posts can educate fans that may not know as much about the team. I enjoy reading thoughtful comments made about other teams, and I am sure teams who are interested in the Texans would want to hear from fans who follow the team closely.
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Old 07-13-2009   #2
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Default Re: KC Joyner Talks Texans, Duane Brown

excellent stuff, thanks.

the question I would ask him would be what do the metrics say about Dunta Robinson pre/post injury POA? His impact on the defensive unit as he returned from ACL surgery, do his numbers reflect better POA week to week as well as the entire secondary unit?
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Old 07-13-2009   #3
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Default Re: KC Joyner Talks Texans, Duane Brown

Quote:
Originally Posted by beerlover View Post
excellent stuff, thanks.

the question I would ask him would be what do the metrics say about Dunta Robinson pre/post injury POA? His impact on the defensive unit as he returned from ACL surgery, do his numbers reflect better POA week to week as well as the entire secondary unit?
That was one of the questions. He has talked about Robinson's performance in the past but this is before he looked at all of last year's tapes.

Interview with ESPN's KC Joyner - dated January 19, 2009

Quote:
KC: "I've had good and bad things to say about Robinson over the years but in the case of a franchise tag, all I can say is look at his YPA metrics over the past five seasons:

2008 - 7.5
2007 - 8.0
2006 - 7.4
2005 - 9.3
2004 - 6.6

To put these into perspective, consider that a YPA of 7.5 or better will typically rank a cornerback in the upper half of the league. Robinson's YPA has been at or near the 7.5 mark twice, has been below it once and has been above it twice. If that's a franchise level cornerback, I'm a Pulitzer prize winner. He's worth re-signing at the right price but I wouldn't break the bank on him."
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Old 07-13-2009   #4
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Default Re: KC Joyner Talks Texans, Duane Brown

I don't understand this comment:

Quote:
I also have reservations about Brown’s pass-blocking skills because all but two of his sacks allowed were of the one-on-one variety. Those sacks are when the blocker is beaten in a one-on-one matchup and the defender gets to the quarterback within three seconds of the snap. They are the most difficult sacks to get
No, being double teamed is more difficult than going mano a mano. Mario would love it if everyone singled him because "that made things more difficult." Now for the LT, mano o mano is the hardest to defend because he is left on an island with no help. Bass ackwards.
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Old 07-13-2009   #5
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Default Re: KC Joyner Talks Texans, Duane Brown

Im guessing he meant they are the most rare
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Old 07-13-2009   #6
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Default Re: KC Joyner Talks Texans, Duane Brown

really great stuff (would rep you but have to spread around).

pretty much settles that situation (Dunta) for me at least.

regarding Brown I don't think he was mentally & physically ready for his rookie season, trial by error, his performance did taper off as the season wore him down. this year he should be improved in every area (reflected in his POA) so I'm looking foward see how well he does this season then comparing metrics, I think we'll all have a better understanding just how good of selection Duane Brown was/is?
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Old 07-13-2009   #7
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Default Re: KC Joyner Talks Texans, Duane Brown

Good article. Had to hurt the former Sage for Pres. fans to read about his lack of good decision making.

I left a post asking about Chris Myer's place on the line and if he thinks Caldwell will push him sooner then later.

I also mentioned two reasons that Brown could improve in that he's working on his conditioning in the off-season and OL coach Alex gibbs.

I know he says a 7.5 is upper tier, but I can't help but wonder how his numbers compare to an Elite CB like Nnamdi or Champ Bailey.
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Old 07-13-2009   #8
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Default Re: KC Joyner Talks Texans, Duane Brown

Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
I don't understand this comment:



No, being double teamed is more difficult than going mano a mano. Mario would love it if everyone singled him because "that made things more difficult." Now for the LT, mano o mano is the hardest to defend because he is left on an island with no help. Bass ackwards.
Leave that as a comment over there.
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Old 07-13-2009   #9
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Default Re: KC Joyner Talks Texans, Duane Brown

certainly am excited to see how Brown performs in year two. I feel like that rookie baptism was as good as you can hope for. He's seen the best. Now we get to see if his conditioning and 1 year of experience under his belt can show large improvement.
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Old 07-13-2009   #10
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Default Re: KC Joyner Talks Texans, Duane Brown

Quote:
Originally Posted by barrett View Post
certainly am excited to see how Brown performs in year two. I feel like that rookie baptism was as good as you can hope for. He's seen the best. Now we get to see if his conditioning and 1 year of experience under his belt can show large improvement.
I have followed Joyner for years. I even bought his book one year. I love the indepth statistical work that he does. Having said that, his conclusions are often very poor. For instance, his book that I bought after the '04 season predicted that David Carr and Kyle Boller would be the two next great quarterbacks. So, when reading his stuff, I kind of ignore his opinion and conclusions but focus on all the statistics that he compiled- they can be helpful.
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Old 07-13-2009   #11
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Default Re: KC Joyner Talks Texans, Duane Brown

Brown is one of the players I think will have a very good year this season, especially if we have a solid running back corps.
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Old 07-13-2009   #12
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Default Re: KC Joyner Talks Texans, Duane Brown

Quote:
Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
I have followed Joyner for years. I even bought his book one year. I love the indepth statistical work that he does. Having said that, his conclusions are often very poor. For instance, his book that I bought after the '04 season predicted that David Carr and Kyle Boller would be the two next great quarterbacks. So, when reading his stuff, I kind of ignore his opinion and conclusions but focus on all the statistics that he compiled- they can be helpful.
I've learned that the the only way you are going to read someone that you always agree with is to write stuff yourself. Same thing applies for candidates for public office--won't agree with someone's position 100% of the time unless you are running. Of course, some writers and politicians flip flop a lot and contradict themselves, which further complicates things.

Your advice is good about picking out the stats from the opinion from all those NFL stat peoples. That's sort of what I'm trying to do with the Football Outsiders Almanac series of posts. Get the numbers out for greater discussion. Trying to connect the numbers to the people who know about the team.

After the 2004 season wasn't a completely delusional time to be high on David Carr. His early season stats that season were very good until teams figured out that he was a nicklehead and couldn't throw against Cover-2.

Then the 2005 team was a full team implosion and the staff on the 2006 team learned that he couldn't read defenses and didn't have the work ethic they expected in an NFL QB.

/not intending for this to become an ocho viejo thread
//don't do it.
///seriously
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Old 07-13-2009   #13
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Default Re: KC Joyner Talks Texans, Duane Brown

Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
I don't understand this comment:



No, being double teamed is more difficult than going mano a mano. Mario would love it if everyone singled him because "that made things more difficult." Now for the LT, mano o mano is the hardest to defend because he is left on an island with no help. Bass ackwards.
Maybe he was talking about the "within three seconds" part as being difficult?
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Old 07-13-2009   #14
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Default Re: KC Joyner Talks Texans, Duane Brown

Hill should improve numbers, making the solo efforts stick out & a better gauge of his ability.
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Old 07-13-2009   #15
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Default Re: KC Joyner Talks Texans, Duane Brown

Quote:
Originally Posted by Runner View Post
Maybe he was talking about the "within three seconds" part as being difficult?
That's how I read it as well.
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Old 07-13-2009   #16
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Default Re: KC Joyner Talks Texans, Duane Brown

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texans_Chick View Post
/not intending for this to become an ocho viejo thread
//don't do it.
///seriously
::giggles::
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Old 07-13-2009   #17
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Default Re: KC Joyner Talks Texans, Duane Brown

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
I don't understand this comment:

Quote:
I also have reservations about Brown’s pass-blocking skills because all but two of his sacks allowed were of the one-on-one variety. Those sacks are when the blocker is beaten in a one-on-one matchup and the defender gets to the quarterback within three seconds of the snap. They are the most difficult sacks to get

No, being double teamed is more difficult than going mano a mano. Mario would love it if everyone singled him because "that made things more difficult." Now for the LT, mano o mano is the hardest to defend because he is left on an island with no help. Bass ackwards.
I think he's right, but he said it in a funny way...

I bet if you looked at the numbers then his statement would be true...

I think it's more likely that a defender gets a sack going against a double team when the QB is sitting in the pocket for a while trying to decide where to go with the ball vs. getting a quick '3 second sack'...

Of course for a defender it is easier to face single covg. vs double covg. but I don't think that's what he was getting at...

As an offensivelineman, if you're giving up a lot of quick sacks then that is really bad...That's 100% on you..

Atleast when you are double teaming on longer developing passing plays you can say that other factors came in to play as to why you are being credited with giving up a sack...
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Old 07-13-2009   #18
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Default Re: KC Joyner Talks Texans, Duane Brown

Hill may be our most important pick. I still don't think Brown will cut it compared to his draft position. He had a pretty bad year by that breakdown. I know he's only a rookie, so I'm holding out hope, but I don't have much. I've said it a million times: I think he can be an adequate or slightly better NFL LT by his second contract. I don't think he will reach that status while on his first contract.
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Old 07-14-2009   #19
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Default Re: KC Joyner Talks Texans, Duane Brown

Quote:
Originally Posted by beerlover View Post
regarding Brown I don't think he was mentally & physically ready for his rookie season, trial by error, his performance did taper off as the season wore him down. this year he should be improved in every area (reflected in his POA) so I'm looking foward see how well he does this season then comparing metrics, I think we'll all have a better understanding just how good of selection Duane Brown was/is?
My thoughts on Brown:

1. The best thing he has going for him is being signed off by Alex Gibbs and starting with him week one. Everybody talks about Steve Slaton, and they should, but I'm not sure he has the same sort of season as he did last year without Gibbs. I am not saying Gibbs = magic fairy dust that fixes all tackles, but it is the closest thing to magic out there. If Brown has it in him to be a LT, Gibbs will find it. Gibbs likes converted tight ends, and so do a lot of teams that rely on quick offensive linemen.

2. When Brown came into the draft, he didn't know what sort of team wanted him. There are fat man linemen teams and less-fat man linemen teams. It's hard to prepare for a draft when you don't know how fat a team wants you to be. Even with his girthiness, he had nice measurables through the combine. From the moment of the draft to all the stuff rookies have to do in the offseason isn't much time to drop weight in a quality way.

He says he has dropped weight prior to this camp while maintain muscle. I guess the Texans believe in him, otherwise they would have kept a vet behind him, though the turnstile qualities of Salaam left some to be desired.
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Old 07-14-2009   #20
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Default Re: KC Joyner Talks Texans, Duane Brown

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texans_Chick View Post
My thoughts on Brown:

1. The best thing he has going for him is being signed off by Alex Gibbs and starting with him week one. Everybody talks about Steve Slaton, and they should, but I'm not sure he has the same sort of season as he did last year without Gibbs. I am not saying Gibbs = magic fairy dust that fixes all tackles, but it is the closest thing to magic out there. If Brown has it in him to be a LT, Gibbs will find it. Gibbs likes converted tight ends, and so do a lot of teams that rely on quick offensive linemen.

2. When Brown came into the draft, he didn't know what sort of team wanted him. There are fat man linemen teams and less-fat man linemen teams. It's hard to prepare for a draft when you don't know how fat a team wants you to be. Even with his girthiness, he had nice measurables through the combine. From the moment of the draft to all the stuff rookies have to do in the offseason isn't much time to drop weight in a quality way.

He says he has dropped weight prior to this camp while maintain muscle. I guess the Texans believe in him, otherwise they would have kept a vet behind him, though the turnstile qualities of Salaam left some to be desired.

I have some doubts about my own ability to recognize a great LT prospect early since I was very high on Seth Wand in 2004. That being said, I'm excited about Brown because of his athleticism, work ethic, intelligence, desire to be good, and what I thought was a good rookie season- particularly considering his lack of college experience at the position. By the way, if something happens to Brown, I have supreme confidence in Rashod Butler to step in and be an above average starting LT.
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