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Old 07-12-2009   #1
infantrycak
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Default Kubiak Game Day Decisions

It's the off-season, how about some football talk and reflection. Here is a thread for people to identify a specific play/call/decision they question Kubiak on and then discussion ensues - maybe we can number them as we go along so we don't get cross conversation in an all encompassing thread.

That said, I don't have a specific thread starting moment, just the idea - either someone will plant a seed or it will die.

This isn't intended for draft picks, free agents, contract negotiations or anything other than decisions during and about the ongoing game.

If at all possible, look up the play by play and give the quarter and time designation so everyone is sure which play is being discussed.

Go forth and debate.
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Old 07-12-2009   #2
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Default Re: Kubiak Game Day Decisions

How about calling a bootleg pass play against the Colts when we could have easily gone "32 belly" and kicked a field goal to extend lead in the infamous Rosencopter game. If you run it up the middle it eats clock, you gain 1-2 yards, and either kick a field goal or put them deep in their territory.
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Old 07-12-2009   #3
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Default Re: Kubiak Game Day Decisions

Game 3 against the Titans last season.

McCareins makes a catch near the goal line. He was out of bounds and I could not stop screaming at my TV for a red flag. It never came. I saw our season go in the toliet then.

I can't help but think that Kubiak might have the worst record when it comes to challenges. I don't even think he even won one. One properly placed challenge can turn a game around and one game can turn an entire season around. Mistakes cannot be made. Especially regarding coaches challenges? I don't understand why he is so BAD at them. It got so bad to the point to where I absolutely dreaded having a challenge put out by Kubiak. He has no business challenging plays. Could these duties be relagated to Kyle Shannahan for this season?
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Old 07-12-2009   #4
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Default Re: Kubiak Game Day Decisions

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Originally Posted by wags View Post
How about calling a bootleg pass play against the Colts when we could have easily gone "32 belly" and kicked a field goal to extend lead in the infamous Rosencopter game. If you run it up the middle it eats clock, you gain 1-2 yards, and either kick a field goal or put them deep in their territory.
I know folks will differ, but I liked that play call there. Roll out and take a safe pass for a 1st (which substantially aids your effort to run out the clock) or run the ball as best you can and as you say set up the field goal or kick. Once Sage made the decision to pull the ball down, the onus was on him to just get the yards to make the kick easier. Slide or go down for 6 rather than Rosencoptering for 8. This play seems to me like a bad result placed on the coach without consideration of the intermediary step of a player who didn't do what he was coached. Just me maybe, but I can't fault Kubiak for the play because to do so seems like faulting Kubiak for not anticipating that his QB would go rogue on what he was supposed to do.
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Old 07-12-2009   #5
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Default Re: Kubiak Game Day Decisions

I'll bite.

Oakland game, deciding to go for it on 4th down and inches in the 4th quarter down by 9 or so points in the Oakland red zone(don't remember exactly), and calling a max protect play, only to have both receivers triple covered. If I remember correctly, we ran pretty much the same play on third down, with the same result. The pass was incomplete and we ended up losing, when a field would have made it a one possession game.
That was a pretty terrible call. However, I do think he has gotten better, especially at time management, as evidenced by all the successful 2 minute drills we have run (Miami, Packers).

And to the above poster, he does seem pretty clueless on challenges, something that needs to be addressed, probably with someone in the booth (coaches don't get to see the replay, they're dependent on people up there telling them if its worth a flag.)
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Old 07-13-2009   #6
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Default Re: Kubiak Game Day Decisions

When Kubes was calling the plays, he couldn't properly manage the game. (clock management, challenges, etc) When he started letting Shanahan call the plays, he had more time to concentrate on the other aspects of the game.
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Old 07-13-2009   #7
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Default Re: Kubiak Game Day Decisions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
When Kubes was calling the plays, he couldn't properly manage the game. (clock management, challenges, etc) When he started letting Shanahan call the plays, he had more time to concentrate on the other aspects of the game.
OK, further clarification of the intent of the thread. Specific instances with whatever conclusions you want to draw after that. General statements are actually the opposite of what I intend here. If you have an opinion about Kubiak pro or con, give an example or examples. That way we can dissect the plays.
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Old 07-13-2009   #8
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Default Re: Kubiak Game Day Decisions

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
OK, further clarification of the intent of the thread. Specific instances with whatever conclusions you want to draw after that. General statements are actually the opposite of what I intend here. If you have an opinion about Kubiak pro or con, give an example or examples. That way we can dissect the plays.
So my questioning him for not throwing a challenge isn't what you're looking for? If so... then this thread is way above my head. I can't compete with you guys. I don't even know the plays in the book.
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Old 07-13-2009   #9
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Default Re: Kubiak Game Day Decisions

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Originally Posted by NitroHonda View Post
So my questioning him for not throwing a challenge isn't what you're looking for? If so... then this thread is way above my head. I can't compete with you guys. I don't even know the plays in the book.
Not at all. I just mean name a specific play where he should have thrown a challenge and did not or tossed the flag and shouldn't have.

Giving specific examples makes the rubber hit the road.

I'm just saying let's get more specific on the problems. It is well and good to say he should have done X, so let's discuss what Y and Z were as alternatives.
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Old 07-13-2009   #10
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Default Re: Kubiak Game Day Decisions

I think Nitro's sighting is dead on. I would argue that above all else Kubiak's #1 short coming as a coach is his challenge management. Let it be known that I am a HUGE Kubiak supporter. I like how he runs this team. I think gameday management is his weakest point. Not from a play calling perspective but more so from all the little things. The biggest little thing is the challenges. I don't expect him to be able to know if a play should be challenged. I expect him to have a staff in place that does. It's something so basic. Pay a guy to watch the TV coverage. They have the best camera angles and the fastest replays. Sometimes I am near a heart attack waiting for reliant to get their sh!t together on the big screen. I don't know what the rules are or if there are any regarding that stuff but I don't want him basing his call on the jumbo-tron.

Anyway, Nitro. I think you're dead on with what Infrantry is asking for. I think what he doesn't want is what I just complained about.
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Old 07-13-2009   #11
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Default Re: Kubiak Game Day Decisions

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Originally Posted by barrett View Post
I think Nitro's sighting is dead on. I would argue that above all else Kubiak's #1 short coming as a coach is his challenge management. Let it be known that I am a HUGE Kubiak supporter. I like how he runs this team. I think gameday management is his weakest point. Not from a play calling perspective but more so from all the little things. The biggest little thing is the challenges. I don't expect him to be able to know if a play should be challenged. I expect him to have a staff in place that does. It's something so basic. Pay a guy to watch the TV coverage. They have the best camera angles and the fastest replays. Sometimes I am near a heart attack waiting for reliant to get their sh!t together on the big screen. I don't know what the rules are or if there are any regarding that stuff but I don't want him basing his call on the jumbo-tron.

Anyway, Nitro. I think you're dead on with what Infrantry is asking for. I think what he doesn't want is what I just complained about.
No you are dead wrong. I want any opinion expressed here, but I started this thread for people to provide specific examples to support their opinions.

I guess since you declined that obvious invite for examples, you clearly have none.

See how that works?

Now back up and either play along or don't participate. You are free to start your own threads.

SO THIS IS CLEAR - COME UP WITH ANY PRO OR CON ON KUBIAK'S GAME DAY DECISIONS AND WHEN YOU DO SO, REFERENCE SPECIFIC PLAYS OR DECISIONS.

Spare me the "he doeesn't want" comments on an open ended thread.
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Old 07-13-2009   #12
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Default Re: Kubiak Game Day Decisions

Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
Not at all. I just mean name a specific play where he should have thrown a challenge and did not or tossed the flag and shouldn't have.

Giving specific examples makes the rubber hit the road.

I'm just saying let's get more specific on the problems. It is well and good to say he should have done X, so let's discuss what Y and Z were as alternatives.
I did name a specific play. Let me try it again with a bit more detail...

Third game against the Titans last season...

Late in the second quarter, Justin McCareins caught a long lob from Collins. About 35 yards. He caught the pass as he was going out of bounds on the 3 or 4 yard line. He clearly did not have both feet in. I remember screaming for an EASY challenge. It never came. The Titans eventually scored and the score went from 12-14 to 12-21 going into the half.

Anyway, I'm not saying that winning that particular challenge would have changed the outcome of the game but winning it would have at least changed the momentum the Titans had going into the half. We were warring with the Titans and holding our ground pretty well. I think that the non-challenge call may have destroyed any momentum we had.

A single mistake that definitely altered the course of the game. I don't even think that they were in FG range. If so, it was going to be a LONG kick. Maybe not a problem for Birionas but we had to at least make him work for his kicks.

This was a Kubiak decision.
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Old 07-13-2009   #13
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Default Re: Kubiak Game Day Decisions

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Originally Posted by NitroHonda View Post
I did name a specific play. Let me try it again with a bit more detail...
Look back and you will see you are quoting me responding to Marcus.

I am not saying I am going to respond to every play mentioned either (I may keep a list for people to refer to) - I just raised the topic for people to discuss. For example, I remember the play you are talking about and it being controversial, but frankly without video I couldn't take a stance so I will let it go to others with better memory.

Just thought folks might have fun talking football and in specifics rather than generalities.
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Old 07-13-2009   #14
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Default Re: Kubiak Game Day Decisions

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
Look back and you will see you are quoting me responding to Marcus.
I know. I still wanted clarification on exactly what you were looking for with this thread. I probably expected a response to my attempt at posting but it didn't come in the form that you apparently were looking for from others. I'm the one who brought up challenges in the first place and you were telling those who responded to me were not what you intended. Doesn't matter. I'm happy with the thread thus far. Moving on...

Just noticed your edit. Makes perfect sense now. Just a tad bit of confusion going on. No biggie. We're back on track now.
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Old 07-13-2009   #15
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Default Re: Kubiak Game Day Decisions

Quote:
Originally Posted by NitroHonda View Post
I know. I still wanted clarification on exactly what you were looking for with this thread. I probably expected a response to my attempt at posting but it didn't come in the form that you apparently were looking for from others. I'm the one who brought up challenges in the first place and you were telling those who responded to me were not what you intended. Doesn't matter. I'm happy with the thread thus far. Moving on...

Just noticed your edit. Makes perfect sense now. Just a tad bit of confusion going on. No biggie. We're back on track now.
Cool. So let's all move on with specific comments, pro or con, with specific examples on which anyone can comment (and I by no means intend to comment on each). Periodically if the thread goes anywhere, I will number and summarize the plays being discussed for folks to reference.

#1 - Rosencopter play
#2 - failure to call challenge on McCairens completion in 1st Titans game of 2008.
#3 - Oakland game 4th quarter 4th an inches call.

Carry on.
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Old 07-13-2009   #16
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Default Re: Kubiak Game Day Decisions

Speaking of 4th down calls...

In the same Titans game that I'm referring to... I'm watching it right now thanks to barret's suggestion that we purchase NFL rewind...

*sigh*

About 5:20 left in the 3rd. 4th down and 4 yards to go. Striking distance for Kris Brown. We go for it. Passed for one yard to Slaton. Fail.

The bigger slap in the face was that Kubiak did it AGAIN in the 4th quarter with 7:12 to go. 4th down and two yards to go. We hand it off to Slaton. Fail.

Why go with Slaton on both accounts? We could have easily kicked both of them in and at least made the game interesting.

Ugh. Are you sure you want to do this thread, infantry? Because right about now I want Kubiak tar and feathered! Lol. Just a poor coaching game overall. Going for it against a stiffling defense not once but twice seems silly. Especially to Slaton which is probably who everyone's looking for since the RB would be the dumpoff man.

I also just noticed that Kubiak challenged Griffin's INT of Schaub at 6:33 and lost that challenge. I went back and reviewed it. He had NO business throwing the red flag then. None whatsoever. It was a clean clear INT. Nothing to dispute.

So we've got a blown challenge, a bad challenge, and two poor 4th down decisions. This game was all on Gary Kubiak.
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Old 07-13-2009   #17
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Default Re: Kubiak Game Day Decisions

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Originally Posted by run-david-run View Post
I'll bite.

Oakland game, deciding to go for it on 4th down and inches in the 4th quarter down by 9 or so points in the Oakland red zone(don't remember exactly), and calling a max protect play, only to have both receivers triple covered. If I remember correctly, we ran pretty much the same play on third down, with the same result. The pass was incomplete and we ended up losing, when a field would have made it a one possession game.
That was a pretty terrible call. However, I do think he has gotten better, especially at time management, as evidenced by all the successful 2 minute drills we have run (Miami, Packers).

And to the above poster, he does seem pretty clueless on challenges, something that needs to be addressed, probably with someone in the booth (coaches don't get to see the replay, they're dependent on people up there telling them if its worth a flag.)
I like going for it in that situation. It's a lot easier to go 30 yards for a TD with plenty of time, then have to run the hurry up for a field goal, than the other way around.

If you need a TD to win the game with time running out the odds are against you. If you just need a field goal there's a very good chance a quality offense will win that game.
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Old 07-13-2009   #18
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Default Re: Kubiak Game Day Decisions

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I like going for it in that situation. It's a lot easier to go 30 yards for a TD with plenty of time, then have to run the hurry up for a field goal, than the other way around.

If you need a TD to win the game with time running out the odds are against you. If you just need a field goal there's a very good chance a quality offense will win that game.
I think I read that Kubiak went for it 17 times last year but only successfully converted two. That's a bad ratio anyway you look at it. Real bad.

I guess my question is... Do you still go for it knowing his 4th down numbers?

Oh god, I want Kubiak so fired right now. I need sleep because I'm a Kubiak fan.
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Old 07-13-2009   #19
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Default Re: Kubiak Game Day Decisions

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Originally Posted by NitroHonda View Post
I think I read that Kubiak went for it 17 times last year but only successfully converted two. That's a bad ratio anyway you look at it. Real bad.

I guess my question is... Do you still go for it knowing his 4th down numbers?

Oh god, I want Kubiak so fired right now. I need sleep because I'm a Kubiak fan.
We went for it on 4th down 23 times last year and converted 14. 61% was good enough for 8th best in the NFL.
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Old 07-13-2009   #20
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Default Re: Kubiak Game Day Decisions

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Originally Posted by Goatcheese View Post
We went for it on 4th down 23 times last year and converted 14. 61% was good enough for 8th best in the NFL.
Looks like my numbers were WAYYYYYY off base. I need to do a better job of checking the numbers.

Then I have to concur with you. You must go for it in that scenario.
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