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Old 06-10-2009   #1
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Default Contract Negotiations

The Texans are involved in some slow moving contract negotiations right now. While every case is different, are there patterns. Some things that come to mind are:

- the players are turning down good offers due to greed.
- the team is taking a hard line approach; the player has been franchised/has been tendered/is under contract and is easily replaceable so there is nothing to talk about.
- the front office has some analysis paralysis; fear of making a costly blunder stops them from making medium to high offers to medium to high performers.
- this is strictly business as usual in the NFL and there is nothing to discuss.

I'm sure that as with most topics there is no black and white answer, and that reality is a combination of these and other factors. Anyone have any thoughtful opinions on the issue?
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Old 06-10-2009   #2
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Default Re: Contract Negotiations

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Originally Posted by Runner View Post
The Texans are involved in some slow moving contract negotiations right now. While every case is different, are there patterns. Some things that come to mind are:

- the players are turning down good offers due to greed.
- the team is taking a hard line approach; the player has been franchised/has been tendered/is under contract and is easily replaceable so there is nothing to talk about.
- the front office has some analysis paralysis; fear of making a costly blunder stops them from making medium to high offers to medium to high performers.
- this is strictly business as usual in the NFL and there is nothing to discuss.

I'm sure that as with most topics there is no black and white answer, and that reality is a combination of these and other factors. Anyone have any thoughtful opinions on the issue?
I probably don't have any thoughtful opinions, but I'll state my worthless one nonetheless.

As you say, it's a combination of things, but I really think the team is trying to set itself up to conduct business like the Eagles, Pats, Steelers, etc. That's probably a good thing for the long-term health of the franchise. However, they haven't had to deal with success until now, and even that's pretty meager. So they haven't really had to deal with trying to keep their homegrown players under contract and happy, and now they're working their way through it. Frankly, I think they're stumbling through it. Both sides are always going to strive to get the better end of the negotiations, but I think ownership doesn't have a solid baseline in mind that they should operate from. They're still learning.
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Old 06-10-2009   #3
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Default Re: Contract Negotiations

We will make fair offers. If a player wants more, we will fight because 1) we made a fair offer and 2) we don't want copycats.
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Old 06-10-2009   #4
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Default Re: Contract Negotiations

I would say uncertainty with the CBA, the agents/players have a higher opinion of their value, and the agents are trying to leverage the Texans potential (as in - you need our player to take the next step). Uncertainty and growing pains is my opinion.

I could live without all three if need be. We have more depth than ever, but there are still few players that I would feel the need to lock up. Ryans has lost a step, Robinson is damaged goods and we can always find a pass catching TE for this offense that cannot get into the end zone.
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Old 06-10-2009   #5
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Default Re: Contract Negotiations

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Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro View Post
I would say uncertainty with the CBA, the agents/players have a higher opinion of their value, and the agents are trying to leverage the Texans potential (as in - you need our player to take the next step). Uncertainty and growing pains is my opinion.

I could live without all three if need be. We have more depth than ever, but there are still few players that I would feel the need to lock up. Ryans has lost a step, Robinson is damaged goods and we can always find a pass catching TE for this offense that cannot get into the end zone.

I'm not sure how replaceable OD is if the Texans want to take the next step. He has a solid base in the offense with yards and catches, but needs to add red zone effectiveness. A new tight end has to start from a lower level to reach the same "next step". He seems worth a 4-5 year deal with a decent guarantee to me. Of course, we don't know if the Texans offered him a fair deal or if he's demanded an unfair deal or ...
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Old 06-10-2009   #6
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Default Re: Contract Negotiations

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Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro View Post
I would say uncertainty with the CBA, the agents/players have a higher opinion of their value, and the agents are trying to leverage the Texans potential (as in - you need our player to take the next step). Uncertainty and growing pains is my opinion.

I could live without all three if need be. We have more depth than ever, but there are still few players that I would feel the need to lock up. Ryans has lost a step, Robinson is damaged goods and we can always find a pass catching TE for this offense that cannot get into the end zone.
All of KT's points in that first sentence are excellent, but I think the bolded portion explains a lot.
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Old 06-10-2009   #7
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Default Re: Contract Negotiations

The biggest issue is that the Texans have more leverage than the players. Ryans is under contract. Daniels while technically not under contract, as RFA has no option, but to sign his tender 1 year tender at almost 3 million or not play. Dunta with the franchise tag really is similiar to Daniels, either sign the 1 year nearly 10 million tender or do not play. Especially, with the rules of the uncapped year, the players are all trying to get the long term deal because the club will be able to place all of them in the same situation next off-season. From the Texans purest business standpoint, they are under no rush or even obligation to get a long term deal done with any of them.

Basically, both sides are acting in their best interests. This is business as usual.
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Old 06-10-2009   #8
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Default Re: Contract Negotiations

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Originally Posted by Runner View Post
I'm not sure how replaceable OD is if the Texans want to take the next step. He has a solid base in the offense with yards and catches, but needs to add red zone effectiveness. A new tight end has to start from a lower level to reach the same "next step". He seems worth a 4-5 year deal with a decent guarantee to me. Of course, we don't know if the Texans offered him a fair deal or if he's demanded an unfair deal or ...
I'm not saying that I necessarily think OD is expendable. But, it wouldn't be a "new tight end" taking his place. Joel Dreesen signed an unexpectedly high contract in February. He performed well last season, better than OD in the red zone, IMO, and would be able to fill in admirably (though probably not to OD full potential.)

I think there's substance to the idea that the TE is a product of this offense. The vertical nature of our passing game often leaves the middle open to exploit. Obviously the TE has to be able to carry out the task, and OD has a great football IQ, but he's not exceptionally big nor is he exceptionally fast.

He'll obviously be with the Texans this season, and maybe for a couple more after that, depending on what happens with the CBA. But, in his particular case, I'd be real careful of the value I place on him.
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Old 06-10-2009   #9
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Default Re: Contract Negotiations

I like hearing that Rick Smith is hard to work with... Just imagine the other option: 'Man, I can't believe he gave us this deal!' At the same time I'm glad Daniels got his unsigned butt off the practice field, that's one nasty slip from his own financial crisis.

I think it's way too early to say the Texans' are stumbling, slow-paced, or hard-lining guys on contract negotiations. It's also too early to say the players are being greedy, don't want to play for the team, or are just in it for a buck.

What we're seeing here is completely normal negotiating tactics. The team uses it's (CBA-negotiated) strategies: RFA tenders, Franchise tender, and ultimately the contract value that's offered. The players are in turn using their leverage: not signing the tenders, not showing up for OTAs/camp, and (eventually) the possibility of playing for another team.

There's a long time before the start of camp and the season, and I expect that most of these contract issues will get worked out by then. If they don't, then it will be time to start criticizing the FO and Players.
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Old 06-10-2009   #10
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Default Re: Contract Negotiations

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Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro View Post
I would say uncertainty with the CBA, the agents/players have a higher opinion of their value, and the agents are trying to leverage the Texans potential (as in - you need our player to take the next step). Uncertainty and growing pains is my opinion.

I could live without all three if need be. We have more depth than ever, but there are still few players that I would feel the need to lock up. Ryans has lost a step, Robinson is damaged goods and we can always find a pass catching TE for this offense that cannot get into the end zone.
Agreed. All of our 2006 guys will eventually be compelled to settle for what we offer them otherwise they risk being RFA until 2012. I am concerned why there hasn't been more movement on players like Pitts and KWalter though. Walter should be a fairly simply extension and I don't know if they've even begun negotiations.
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Old 06-10-2009   #11
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Default Re: Contract Negotiations

I agree the CBA issues are big contributors, especially for those who have to go through RFA double jeopardy. The relatively weak NFL players union strikes again.
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Old 06-10-2009   #12
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Default Re: Contract Negotiations

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I'm not sure how replaceable OD is if the Texans want to take the next step. He has a solid base in the offense with yards and catches, but needs to add red zone effectiveness. A new tight end has to start from a lower level to reach the same "next step". He seems worth a 4-5 year deal with a decent guarantee to me. Of course, we don't know if the Texans offered him a fair deal or if he's demanded an unfair deal or ...
I think OD might be the most expendable out of the 3 actually. It has been shown time and time again that rookie TE's can come in and be very productive in the passing game right away if they're good players. Daniels did real well as a rookie,but Carr was still here and it held his numbers down but he played really well.

I want to sign Daniels really really bad, but it depends on what he is demanding.

I think Ryans is the most important guy to lock up. He stays healthy on the field even when he's hurt, and is a leader as well. We need to keep the quality guys on our defense. We simply can't afford to lose our defensive players that can play well for a long time and many years. Dunta has acted like a spoiled brat and turned down a great offer and has shown to be the most injury prone out of all of them, so I think Ryans is the most important guy to sign, and OD and Dunta become a toss up depending on what both of them want and what we have behind them. If Casey shows that he's really really good right out of the gate, then I'd have no problem trading Daniels to save the money in order so we could have a low cost productive TE just like Daniels has been the last few years. We could easily get at least a 2nd rounder for him and maybe even a first rounder perhaps. It just depends on how much money he thinks he should get. And this is a put up or shut up year for Dunta. He had better be performing lights out this season after acting like such a baby. If not, he can to walking after this season, and he had better show up at camp very soon.
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Old 06-10-2009   #13
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Default Re: Contract Negotiations

Forget Dunta until he proves he's 100%.

Pay DR & OD

The time has come to pay up Uncle BOB.

The honeymoon is over BOB you are going to have to start paying out vet. money.

I know it's hard to open your checkbook but you can do it.
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Old 06-10-2009   #14
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Default Re: Contract Negotiations

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The biggest issue is that the Texans have more leverage than the players. Ryans is under contract. Daniels while technically not under contract, as RFA has no option, but to sign his tender 1 year tender at almost 3 million or not play. Dunta with the franchise tag really is similiar to Daniels, either sign the 1 year nearly 10 million tender or do not play. Especially, with the rules of the uncapped year, the players are all trying to get the long term deal because the club will be able to place all of them in the same situation next off-season. From the Texans purest business standpoint, they are under no rush or even obligation to get a long term deal done with any of them.

Basically, both sides are acting in their best interests. This is business as usual.
Spot On
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Old 06-10-2009   #15
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Default Re: Contract Negotiations

McNair being cheap has to be one of the biggest myths in the history of Houston sports.
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Old 06-10-2009   #16
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Default Re: Contract Negotiations

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I think OD might be the most expendable out of the 3 actually. It has been shown time and time again that rookie TE's can come in and be very productive in the passing game right away if they're good players. Daniels did real well as a rookie,but Carr was still here and it held his numbers down but he played really well.

I want to sign Daniels really really bad, but it depends on what he is demanding.

I think Ryans is the most important guy to lock up. He stays healthy on the field even when he's hurt, and is a leader as well. We need to keep the quality guys on our defense. We simply can't afford to lose our defensive players that can play well for a long time and many years. Dunta has acted like a spoiled brat and turned down a great offer and has shown to be the most injury prone out of all of them, so I think Ryans is the most important guy to sign, and OD and Dunta become a toss up depending on what both of them want and what we have behind them. If Casey shows that he's really really good right out of the gate, then I'd have no problem trading Daniels to save the money in order so we could have a low cost productive TE just like Daniels has been the last few years. We could easily get at least a 2nd rounder for him and maybe even a first rounder perhaps. It just depends on how much money he thinks he should get. And this is a put up or shut up year for Dunta. He had better be performing lights out this season after acting like such a baby. If not, he can to walking after this season, and he had better show up at camp very soon.
LOL, I always wondered how BS rumors like these get started, and I guess now I see how. Dunta Robinson played in the first 57 straight games of his career. In the 57th game, he got taken out in an accident that can happen to any NFL player. Most NFL players that blow out their ACL miss a year and a half. NFL players that blow out multiple ligaments and rip the hamstring from the bone might be expected to take a little longer. Robinson came back and played in 11 games last year. So if anything, he rushed back too soon.

People can bellyache about his contract situation all they want, but it's just flat inaccurate to say he's injury prone. And there's no questioning the guy's toughness.
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Old 06-10-2009   #17
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Default Re: Contract Negotiations

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McNair being cheap has to be one of the biggest myths in the history of Houston sports.
I don't think it's a myth, because I haven't heard too many people say he's cheap. I have heard tons of people say he's spent money unwisely, and given some of the contracts that have been handed out, that's hard to argue.
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Old 06-10-2009   #18
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Default Re: Contract Negotiations

The primary problem that is going on with these contract negotiations with the Texans is that other poorly run franchises are setting the precedent that players want to follow, and the better run franchises are refusing to concede. And they shouldn't. For example, look at Dunta's situation. Nate Clements signed for a ton of money that he has yet to show that he's worth, Nnamdi signed for QB-type money, the Colts overpaid for Hayden (although it was more reasonable than the others), and what Dan Snyder gave DeAngelo Hall is completely laughable. Yet, these teams are responsible for making players believe they are worth money that better run teams are simply not going to pay them.

Look at OD's situation. The Broncos gave Daniel Graham a bad contract, and Winslow is basically stealing from the Bucs right now. But these types of deals make OD and his agent look at the market and say that if these players who are not on his same level are getting these types of contracts, then he should too. But the Texans are being smarter, just like the Pats, Eagles, Panthers, and Steelers who refuse to let bad contracts hamstring their success. I like what the Texans are doing. Who says that James Casey can't be the same or even better than OD? Nobody knows. I do know this. The Falcons gave up a second rounder for Tony Gonzalez who is at the end of his career. If Owen was so valuable, then certainly a team would be willing to give up a first round pick for him when he still has 8-10 solid years of production left. Same with Dunta.

Players should try to get as much as they can as soon as they can, because NFL careers are very short compared to other pro sports. But they can't be upset that these franchises are doing what they have to do in order to keep their business successful and thriving. Following the lead of the Raiders, 49ers, Redskins, and Cowboys can prove to be disastrous.
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Old 06-10-2009   #19
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Default Re: Contract Negotiations

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I don't think it's a myth, because I haven't heard too many people say he's cheap.
You must not listen to sports talk radio or read this message board then.
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Old 06-10-2009   #20
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Default Re: Contract Negotiations

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Originally Posted by eriadoc View Post

People can bellyache about his contract situation all they want, but it's just flat inaccurate to say he's injury prone. And there's no questioning the guy's toughness.
I didn't say in a blanket statement that he was injury prone.

I said that he was the most injury prone out of the three Eriadoc, and that has been the case with the recent history of the 3. Maybe he's played more seasons and all, but in the last 3 years he's been more injury prone than the other two.
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