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Old 04-23-2009   #41
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Default Re: NFL Top 10 Rookies of 2008

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Originally Posted by BigBull17 View Post
2nd overall for a 3-4 end when you run a 4-3 isn't a good idea. I think he'll be an ok player, but he wasn't the wisest pick for that team. As long as the guys arond him are 4 lb's, another end, and a nose, they will be fine. He's playing out of position.
40 tackles, 4 sacks (2 against NE and 1 against the Giants), 1 forced fumble on the 2nd worst team in the league.

He had a decent year, he just didn't have a great year. Give the guy a couple years.
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Old 04-23-2009   #42
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Default Re: NFL Top 10 Rookies of 2008

Slaton having more yards should be a non-factor in the CJ/Slaton debate. Johnson played in one-less game than Slaton and had <60 less yards, a better YPC, and same amount of touchdowns. The point is moot.

You talk about how CJ didn't have to carry his team because of the Titans defense, but fail to mention how anemic the rest of his offense is, especially without VY. Just look at the playoff game when he left with an injury. Also, Slaton had a much more productive offense around him (which he attributed to) with Andre Johnson and Owen Daniels.

CJ shouldn't be above Ryan, probably not even Flacco, and I could even see a case for Forte; but Slaton shouldn't be ranked ahead of him based one their first year in the league. I haven't seen any rankings like this in the national media that has Slaton above CJ, only on these boards.

I think the OTs were too low, Clady should be up there.
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Old 04-23-2009   #43
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Default Re: NFL Top 10 Rookies of 2008

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Originally Posted by SteveSlaton20 View Post
I like Joe Flacco better than Matt Ryan tbh

Matt had more talents around him than Joe did.
And plus Joe won 2 playoff games, Matt didn't.
Flacco was only asked to do one thing - don't screw up. Can't see that as top 10 expectations.

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Slaton having more yards should be a non-factor in the CJ/Slaton debate. Johnson played in one-less game than Slaton and had <60 less yards, a better YPC, and same amount of touchdowns. The point is moot.
Please with the one less game. Slaton was injured and only had 4 carries in one game, and but for that game would have equaled out the .1 ypc better YPC. To be fair, yes they were both very good rookie RB's.

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You talk about how CJ didn't have to carry his team because of the Titans defense, but fail to mention how anemic the rest of his offense is, especially without VY.
LOL--well I guess we can only hope y'all stick with that dummy Fisher who is keeping VY on the bench.

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Just look at the playoff game when he left with an injury. Also, Slaton had a much more productive offense around him (which he attributed to) with Andre Johnson and Owen Daniels.
And CJ had an excellent OL and outstanding D around him.
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Old 04-23-2009   #44
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Default Re: NFL Top 10 Rookies of 2008

Ok, forget that missed game. Slaton had 17 more carries and only 58 more yards. You don't think CJ would have made up those 58 Yards?

But thats not the point. Johnson did more for his team. With Lendale we were limited, we stuck in Johnson and did nothing else and look what happened. Pretty much the same defense, same o-line (traded Jacob Bell with Jake Scott) and offensive weapons.

You won't admit it but VY helped the running game, tremendously. Defenses had to worry about his abilities out of the backfield... they forgot about those when Collins was in the game. Put it like this, do you think we would have made the playoffs in '07 with Collins at QB? I don't. I don't think we would have had the running game that we did that year with LenDale/Chris Brown. VY helped that running game get moving. IMO, Collins had success this season only because we could still run the ball, which I attribute to the insertion of Johnson. Put VY in the lineup and the running game gets better (while the passing game suffers, but you should get the point.)
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Old 04-23-2009   #45
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Default Re: NFL Top 10 Rookies of 2008

Slaton had more of a burden to carry than Johnson who split carries with LenDale

Johnson was probably a little better than Slaton imo
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Old 04-23-2009   #46
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Default Re: NFL Top 10 Rookies of 2008

See, I don't get that. He split carries and still had the same year Slaton did statistically. Not sure how that helps Slaton's case. We ran the ball more, I'm sure, but Houston also had a guy who could stretch the field in AJ.

They're both going to be very good for a long time, we know that much.
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Old 04-23-2009   #47
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Default Re: NFL Top 10 Rookies of 2008

Yes they are
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Old 04-23-2009   #48
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Default Re: NFL Top 10 Rookies of 2008

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Originally Posted by Bulluck53 View Post
Ok, forget that missed game. Slaton had 17 more carries and only 58 more yards. You don't think CJ would have made up those 58 Yards?

But thats not the point. Johnson did more for his team. With Lendale we were limited, we stuck in Johnson and did nothing else and look what happened. Pretty much the same defense, same o-line (traded Jacob Bell with Jake Scott) and offensive weapons.

You won't admit it but VY helped the running game, tremendously. Defenses had to worry about his abilities out of the backfield... they forgot about those when Collins was in the game. Put it like this, do you think we would have made the playoffs in '07 with Collins at QB? I don't. I don't think we would have had the running game that we did that year with LenDale/Chris Brown. VY helped that running game get moving. IMO, Collins had success this season only because we could still run the ball, which I attribute to the insertion of Johnson. Put VY in the lineup and the running game gets better (while the passing game suffers, but you should get the point.)
You can go ahead a forget about that (had a higher YPC average) argument too, because Slaton ran against much tougher run defenses last season (Remember, Chris Johnson doesn't have to play against the Titans' defense twice a season......btw how many 100 yard performances did y'all give up last year and who were they to?) a .1 difference is hardly a difference at all.

Slaton trailed only DeAngelo Williams and Adrian Peterson in explosive plays last season....not bad for a guy who doesn't run a 4.28
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Old 04-23-2009   #49
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Default Re: NFL Top 10 Rookies of 2008

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Originally Posted by Statis22 View Post
Johnson was probably a little better than Slaton imo
I don't think so. He did nothing to seperate himself from Slaton or Forte which is why it's rediculous he got and is still getting as much pub as he is. As far as I'm concerned all three of these backs should be listed in consecutive order as a 3 way tie until one emerges as a clear cut better player (especially Slaton and Johnson, because they're so damn close production wise.)
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Old 04-24-2009   #50
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Default Re: NFL Top 10 Rookies of 2008

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Originally Posted by Carr Bombed View Post
You can go ahead a forget about that (had a higher YPC average) argument too, because Slaton ran against much tougher run defenses last season (Remember, Chris Johnson doesn't have to play against the Titans' defense twice a season......btw how many 100 yard performances did y'all give up last year and who were they to?) a .1 difference is hardly a difference at all.

Slaton trailed only DeAngelo Williams and Adrian Peterson in explosive plays last season....not bad for a guy who doesn't run a 4.28
Their production last season was equal, we can go back and forth looking at stats to help our cases but big picture they had the same numbers. Johnson played a big part in his teams success, and his team was the most successful last season (which is what those stats refer to) so there you go.

Slaton will always have good games against the Titans. Why? Its matchups. Our DEs are taught to pursue, not contain. The Texans zone-blocking scheme opens up cut-back lanes for the backs. DEs who don't contain are susceptible to the cut-back. There you go.
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Old 04-24-2009   #51
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Default Re: NFL Top 10 Rookies of 2008

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Originally Posted by Bulluck53 View Post
Their production last season was equal, we can go back and forth looking at stats to help our cases but big picture they had the same numbers. Johnson played a big part in his teams success, and his team was the most successful last season (which is what those stats refer to) so there you go.
Slaton ALSO played a big part in his team's successes, he just didn't have one of the league's best defenses to get him stops, wins, and the ball back where he could make even more plays. He was added to the talent we have and Houston went from the 14 ranked offense to the 3rd......his impact on this team can't be questioned, but if only our defense could be like Tenn's.....maybe it's Slaton that get's voted to the probowl and Slaton that gets ranked the #1 rookie on NFLN, because if you get right down to it, that's the only real difference.

Oh yeah, you're lying to yourself if you think the only reason why Slaton had success against y'all was because of "the system"......Houston isn't the only team that runs this system (alot of teams work out of some kind of zone) He was just the only back that hung 100 on you twice and it wasn't just because of a system....it was individual effort. In both games y'all had him stopped (nothing to do with blockers or system) and he slipped out of y'all's grasp for his biggest running plays of the game......that's why he put up 100+ yards in both games.
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Old 04-24-2009   #52
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Default Re: NFL Top 10 Rookies of 2008

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Originally Posted by Carr Bombed View Post
Slaton ALSO played a big part in his team's successes, he just didn't have one of the league's best defenses to get him stops, wins, and the ball back where he could make even more plays. He was added to the talent we have and Houston went from the 14 ranked offense to the 3rd......his impact on this team can't be questioned, but if only our defense could be like Tenn's.....maybe it's Slaton that get's voted to the probowl and Slaton that gets ranked the #1 rookie on NFLN, because if you get right down to it, that's the only real difference.
Maybe...

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Oh yeah, you're lying to yourself if you thing the only reason why Slaton had success against y'all was because of "the system"......Houston isn't the only team that runs this system (alot of teams work out of some kind of zone) He was just the only back that hung 100 on you twice and it had nothing to do with a system....it was individual effort. In both games y'all had him stopped (nothing to do with blockers or system) and he slipped out of y'all's grasp for his biggest running plays of the game......that's why he put up 100+ yards in both games.
Whoa there, I didn't mean it as a knock toward him. Slaton is a perfect fit for this system. I have no doubt the guy can play and that he runs hard and is hard to tackle. But do you think he is a better back than Adrian Peterson or Thomas Jones simply because he had more success against the Titans than they did? Football is a game of match-ups and you're offense matches up well against our defense. Do you think the Texans have beat the Jaguars so many times because they were always better? Nope, but they match up better with Jax than they do anyone else.

I really like Slaton as a player, I've said so many times, I just think CJ is better. Call it bias if you want, I see what I see.
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Old 04-24-2009   #53
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Default Re: NFL Top 10 Rookies of 2008

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Originally Posted by Bulluck53 View Post
Maybe....
There is no "maybe" about it.....that is litteraly the main and only difference between these two players and why Johnson is held in such a high regard with the media......team success, team success that had largely to do with the other side of the football. I mean could you imagine what kind of success Slaton and this team would've had with that defense?


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But do you think he is a better back than Adrian Peterson or Thomas Jones simply because he had more success against the Titans than they did?
When did I ever say that......I was talking about how the guy ran against some of the most toughest run defenses in the league last season and despite that he put up the same exact season CJ did.....we don't even know how CJ would've responded having to face that defense twice last season.

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Football is a game of match-ups and you're offense matches up well against our defense. Do you think the Texans have beat the Jaguars so many times because they were always better? Nope, but they match up better with Jax than they do anyone else.
The reason why they beat Jacksonville is because we have always played tougher against Jacksonville due to alot of ex jag players that played on our team that got up for those games and got the team fired up for those games......it has nothing to do with systems, we've had two different head coaches, two different DC's, and three different OC's and a totally revamped roster and we still beat Jacksonville. Nothing to do with "System" or matchups....we formed a rivalry early on, because of those ex Jag players we picked up early on and always got up for those games which helped form a healthy rivalry.

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I really like Slaton as a player, I've said so many times, I just think CJ is better. Call it bias if you want, I see what I see.
Well, since there's nothing CJ has done that "is better" than Slaton.....it has to be just straight bias, so that's what I'm going to call it. Like I said, these players are basically tied and nobody is going to know who is clearly better until they prove it on the field. (BTW, CJ didn't do that last season) Nothing CJ did last season on the field said "I'm better than Slaton......or Forte for that matter."
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Old 04-24-2009   #54
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Default Re: NFL Top 10 Rookies of 2008

You're going to fight this to the death aren't you?

The Peterson/Jones reference was backing my system comment. Both teams use power running attacks, which is what the Titans have been built to stop for years, hence we do better against those kinds of teams. The Texans use more of a finesse approach to their ground game, which relies on speed from everybody on the field. Slaton fits that perfectly and literally runs through our defense. Again its not a knock or excuse, Cecil needs to fix this or the end result will be more like our second meeting from last year.

I'll give you the Jacksonville series, but if you don't realize that football is a game of match ups then I don't know what to say.
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Old 04-24-2009   #55
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Default Re: NFL Top 10 Rookies of 2008

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You're going to fight this to the death aren't you?

The Peterson/Jones reference was backing my system comment. Both teams use power running attacks, which is what the Titans have been built to stop for years, hence we do better against those kinds of teams. The Texans use more of a finesse approach to their ground game, which relies on speed from everybody on the field. Slaton fits that perfectly and literally runs through our defense. Again its not a knock or excuse, Cecil needs to fix this or the end result will be more like our second meeting from last year.

I'll give you the Jacksonville series, but if you don't realize that football is a game of match ups then I don't know what to say.
Honestly why are you talking about "Jones".....it was DeAngelo Williams and Peterson that he trailed....

And yes there are "systems" in the NFL, but every team has a "system" and the top 2 NFL rushing defenses can stop ANY SYSTEM (or should be able to)......I mean Slaton only put up 100+ rushing yards against the #2 rushing defense in the entire league and you atcually think we're going to buy the "it's not Slaton it's the system" routine. Give me a break Houston isn't the only team that runs out of the zone. They're just the only team that had a 100 yard rusher against y'all last season and they did it twice.......with the same runner.

Another thing I don't understand is how every damn team in this league has a "rushing system" of some sort, so obviously they're going to run up against their "so called mismatches" (doubt those mismatches are the #2 run defenses in the league though and doubt they could have a player that hangs 100+ on that #2 and above rushing defense), but here you are trying to hold that against Slaton.

The only thing you're doing is fishing, fishing and searching,.....fishing and searching for excuses for reasons why CJ is clearly better than Slaton and Forte, or why he has some how seperated himself or outplayed those two, when it's obvious he hasn't. Deep down inside you know that all these arguments clearly prove there is no difference, thus meaning the guy is overhyped. CJ isn't better than Forte and he's sure isn't better than Slaton "at this point"......why? Because there wasn't ONE thing he did on the field last season that proved he was not ONE single thing. These players still have to go into next season and settle it on the field and please spare me the "system" crap when Slaton ran against some of the toughest run defenses than any RB in the league, let alone what a rookie RB could run against.
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Old 04-24-2009   #56
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Default Re: NFL Top 10 Rookies of 2008

Matt Ryan
Clady
Matt Forte
Joe Flacco
Chris Johnson
Steve Slaton
Eddie Royal
Mayo
Desean Jackson
Jake Long

I'll put Johnson over Slaton slightly, because many people forget that Chris Johnson had to be in a time share with Lendal White which made his stats a little less and no doubt in my mind that Johnson would have had at least 2 or 3 more TD's and maybe even 5 more had Lendale White not been there bruising in the red zone for them. It was harder on the Titans as well running the ball, because that is practically all they did since they didn't have a passing game and teams were stacking the box against them and they were still getting a lot of yards every week.

They both had great seasons for rookies, but I would have to slightly give the nod to Johnson, but Forte did more for his team than both of them did. Forte completely carried that entire offense for the Bears last season in the running game and in passing game as well practically. Slaton was great for us but he didn't carry our offense. He had a lot of help from Johnson, Daniels, and Walter which CJ and Forte didn't have.
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Old 04-24-2009   #57
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Default Re: NFL Top 10 Rookies of 2008

Johnson and Slaton are both good RB's.

That said, I bet Slaton's smarter.....nanny, nanny, boo, boo..

Johnson sounds as smart as a bag of buttholes.

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Old 04-24-2009   #58
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Default Re: NFL Top 10 Rookies of 2008

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Ok, forget that missed game. Slaton had 17 more carries and only 58 more yards. You don't think CJ would have made up those 58 Yards?
Sure since they basically had identical ypc, given the same carries they would have had the same yards - that is kind of definitional.

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But thats not the point. Johnson did more for his team.
Ummm, way backwards. Y'all went from having a good running game to having a great running game. We went from having no running game to a pretty good one and our O operates off having a running game. That was a tremendous help for us.

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You won't admit it but VY helped the running game, tremendously.
Didn't realize your VY comment was limited to the running game - of course he helps that. Overall I don't think the detriment to the passing game is worth the improvement to the running game, but that's another debate (which apparently Fisher agrees with me on).

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Put it like this, do you think we would have made the playoffs in '07 with Collins at QB? I don't.
Hard to tell, but while we are conjecturing, I don't think you would have been 13-3 last year with VY at the helm.

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Originally Posted by Bulluck53 View Post
See, I don't get that. He split carries and still had the same year Slaton did statistically. Not sure how that helps Slaton's case.
Not sure how splitting carries helps CJ. Either way they had similar carries and similar results. What someone else was doing with the ball, either handing off to Lenwhale or tossing to Daniels on the other plays is separate.

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They're both going to be very good for a long time, we know that much.
Agreed both are good and hopefully don't have careers shortened by injury.
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Old 04-24-2009   #59
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Default Re: NFL Top 10 Rookies of 2008

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Originally Posted by Frak The Jags View Post
List is crap, in my opinion...

I would have Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco AND Steve Slaton before Chris Johnson.

But thats just me...
Then your list wouldn't be credible...

I think it's about right, I think Slaton should be ahead of Royal though. I also feel the o-linemen are rated a little too low too.
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Old 04-24-2009   #60
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Default Re: NFL Top 10 Rookies of 2008

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Originally Posted by Carr Bombed View Post
Honestly why are you talking about "Jones".....it was DeAngelo Williams and Peterson that he trailed....

And yes there are "systems" in the NFL, but every team has a "system" and the top 2 NFL rushing defenses can stop ANY SYSTEM (or should be able to)......I mean Slaton only put up 100+ rushing yards against the #2 rushing defense in the entire league and you atcually think we're going to buy the "it's not Slaton it's the system" routine. Give me a break Houston isn't the only team that runs out of the zone. They're just the only team that had a 100 yard rusher against y'all last season and they did it twice.......with the same runner.

Another thing I don't understand is how every damn team in this league has a "rushing system" of some sort, so obviously they're going to run up against their "so called mismatches" (doubt those mismatches are the #2 run defenses in the league though and doubt they could have a player that hangs 100+ on that #2 and above rushing defense), but here you are trying to hold that against Slaton.
We didn't play Deangelo Williams. We did play Thomas Jones and the Jets, though, and he didn't has many yards as Slaton. That's why i said Thomas Jones.

The Titans defense is not infallible, they have a weakness. And that weakness in the run defense is the cut back. It always has been, and Slaton and the Texans offense is built to open up those lanes. Hence, Slaton killed us in that way both games last year. I've said time and time again I'm not trying to take away his success against us, but there has to be a reason he had that success and no one else did, and I believe the system helped him a lot in those games. System seems to have a negative connotation when it comes to discussions like this, I don't see it that way. You plug anybody into the wrong system and they will never flourish.

You think I'm fishing? I'm merely stating my opinion. I apologize that it doesn't fit in with everyone else's on this board.
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