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Old 01-21-2005   #1
MarleyFan
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Default Moss to the Raiders???

I heard Buchannon and a #1, to Minnisota for Randy Moss. It was being talked about on local radio, so it might be just a rumour!!!
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Old 01-21-2005   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarleyFan
I heard Buchannon and a #1, to Minnisota for Randy Moss. It was being talked about on local radio, so it might be just a rumour!!!
Well right now Oakland is picking at #7, but I'm still not sure if I would take that trade if i was the Vikings, but if they do I could see them picking up Mike Williams if he isn't already taken at #7.
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Old 01-21-2005   #3
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Moss would be a perfect fit with the raiders. no rules, no boundiers
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Old 01-21-2005   #4
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I would be surprised if this comes to pass to be honest. That being said I can clearly understand why there maybe a certain amount of truth to the story as well. With the vertical passing game of Oakland and Kerry Collins big arm Moss might actually see his production increase.
The flip side is that the Vikes are screaming for help on the defensive side of the ball and with the issues that Moss brings to the locker room and press room they might be tempted to deal him.

On a somewhat related note I strongly suspect we will see either Larry Johnson or Priest Holmes leave KC during the offseason for similar reasons...lots of weapons on offense and begging for some defense.
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Old 01-21-2005   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreJ
Well right now Oakland is picking at #7, but I'm still not sure if I would take that trade if i was the Vikings, but if they do I could see them picking up Mike Williams if he isn't already taken at #7.
picking up Mike Williams? idk about the Raiders but Porter, Moss and Williams would be to many "ball hogs" for me. They would prob get mabye secondary for the loss of Buchannon or o-line
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Old 01-22-2005   #6
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(this post is a bunch of out of context statements from other posts about Randy Moss)


Space Time Randy Ratio
You find it acceptable for other teams to give up star players and draft picks for Randy Moss
Yet in the same discussions are you willing to diminish the effect Randy Moss has on the Vikings offense to justify it.

About that vikes offense.

Go take a harder look at Culpepper in the games Randy Moss played in , and the ones he didn't (take note he played in 2 games but was limited to a couple plays)



Pep -
---------------------------Moss Healthy
5 -
1 -
2 -
5 -
5 -
-------------Total
18 - in 5 games
---------------------------Moss gets injured
1 -
1 -
1 -
4 -
2 -
----------------
9 - in 5 games 1.9 per game average 28.8 TD's over 16 games
----------------------------Moss is Back and still injured
1 -
2 -
1 -
3 -
3 -
2 -
-----------------Total
12 - in 6 games
-----------------
30 Td's in games moss played, 2.72 per game average 43.52 TD's over 16 games.

Randy Moss had 13 Td's, thats 33% of the TD's culpepper threw in 11 games.

I don't have alot of games without moss to give a better average, but you can still CLEARLY see the dramatic drop off in production without Moss.

Now here is why I think this whole Randy Moss Trade talk is insanity.

Are you willing to take that much drop in offensive production, and replace it with Defensive production that may or may not have a dramatic effect, and a draft pick that may or may not bust?

You could trade Randy Moss for Ray Lewis and a 1st round pick. Ray Lewis isn't going to match the defensive production gained equal to the offensive production lost. Then you throw in a draft pick that is a complete wildcard. Unless you end up with a Hall of Fame defensive player or pro bowl offensive player out of that pick, you are not getting a fair trade. And that pick isn't going to have a big impact his first year unless it is a huge jackpot.

Offense and Defense
The only way you can justify trading Moss is if you lessen his signifcance in the offense. And thats not an easy sell. Not one person has made any good arguement as to how this isn't going to be a handgrenade into the bedsheets of the offense.


24.7 points per game is how many the defense gave up.

25.7 in games moss plays.

24.4 in games he doesn't (indy packers detroit bears jags)

Without Moss Minnesota is no longer outscoring how many Points a game it's defense is giving up. Also you probally can drop that number of games moss doesn't play in since you don't get to play the worst defense in the nfl every week.

Trading your Strength to Improve your Weakness results in Mediocrity. When the strength is Offense and the weakness defense, because in a 1 for 1 or 1 and for potential , the effect offense is 2 fold that of defense (and a good reason they make 2 times as much money)
The realistic benifits do not out wieght the realistic detriment.

*shoots fiction basketball into fictional hoop*
Swish baby.


Radom Stats and Projections

Moss Carear Average 12.85 TD's per season

.8 td's a game 4.81 points a game from Randy Moss is what you lose. I think it is resonable to expect to get back a 65% -75% of that from someone like a good stopgap. 3.12 --- 3.60 points per game. 1.69 ---- 1.21 difference.

25.7 - 1.69 = 24.01 65%

25.7 - 1.21 = 24.58 75%

If that draft pick isn't a good player you screwed yourself RoYAL.
and even if he is how much is he going to help the defense?



Quote: Moss gets hurt every year? :confused2
BTW, don't say Winfield doesn't make a difference on the D when you admit injuries happen.(On why Minnesota Collapses at the end of the year)


Defensive Collapse
An above average CB on a Terrible defense doesn't have that much of an effect does he. Vikes have had bad defense for a number of consecutive years. The vikes have very little depth at any position except for RB. and TE, and they were already using up that depth at TE since Klinesasser was hurt.

This was a problem before Winny joined the team. And was still a problem after he joined a team, and is the most striking constant durring each collapse in the second half of the season. The defense starts the year pretty good and finishes poorly.

Actaully this year, the Vikes didn't play well on defense at all durring any time durring the season. What did happen in the second half of the year was LESS PRODUCTION FROM THE OFFENSE.
Trading Randy To Improve the Team is a Myth
The Vikes will have 30 million in cap room, they do not need to trade Randy Moss to improve the team.

Red : "we are trading Randy Moss to improve other areas of this team"


Press Guy: "can't you just buy more help in free agency? "


Red: " MOooooooooooooooooRE? ???"

The Vikings can afford help, they were able to do it last year, all they did was get Winfield. The Owner is a cheapskate.


Phillip Bucahnon-
you think a small #2 CB that has never had more than 6 passes defensed in a season, plus the #7 pick in the draft is viable?

viable: per webster #3 capable of working, functioning, or developing adequately



Big Shoes to Fill
And 12 TD's a year is going to have to go somewhere. It's not realistic to expect the running game to just absorb that demand, or any one wr replacing moss. Where does it go? does it get evenly placed to everyone else? Are lets say 4 offensive players able to play at thier same level and on 3 more td's. Also whatever yardage production moss would have had? Thats asking alot. I don't think you would get more than 75% at best and that is if you replace Moss with a true #1 WR. Even while trying to add on this lost production , none of these players will demand the same respect from a defense unless they can dominate a game like Randy did.

I would like to see the look on Culpeppers face when you tell him.

We want you to throw 42 Touchdowns, but this time without Randy Moss, we will offer decent stop gaps for his lost production"
Oh, and Pep, not to add any more pressure, but if you can't do it, we'll lose every game by a field goal. Good Luck Champ.


Locker Room Cancer


Quote:The only way thats true is if you meant body size. I dare you to say that to a Vikes fan and see how many of Minny's OWN fans tell you otherwise.


I don't care what Lions fans think, why would I care what Vikes fans think. Randy Moss on the field antics are nothing compared to what Owens has done.


Quote:When's the last time Owens was in trouble with the law? Had drugs in his car?


I don't know, I know when the last time Randy did. In 2002.

And Steve McNair had a gun in his glovebox and was drunk driving.
Which do you think is worse?

If Randy Moss was thought of as a nicer guy we would just gloss over his incidents wouldn't we? All Moss has been convicted of is misdermeanors. Careless Driving and Weed. No assault on a traffic cop, no lawsuit from said traffic cop, I'm inclined to believe there was no substance to that. Since it was never even brought up in a courtroom. Not exactly a hardened criminal.

But you know what, I fail to see how either incident with either player makes them a cancer to thier football team. These are off the field issues that don't invole anyone but Moss McNair, and the 50's Leave it to Cleaver image of the NFL.


You want an example of a locker room cancer?

Running your teamates off the team: Kobe Bryant

A guy that goes around starting fights. Bill Romanoski.

A guy that invites players over to parties to snort coke off the back of strippers. Micheal Irvin.

A guy that slanders teamates and coaches in the media and sidelines. Owens.

Moss has never raped or killed anyone. Yet Kobe Bryant plays in the NBA, and Jason Williams is working on a comeback. The worst thing Moss has done was walk off the field 2 seconds early. Matt Birk got pissed yelled at Moss. Moss said he would make it up to the team, and he did in the next game scoring 2TD's

Cancer He is Not. Occasionally a problem? Yes, but a Kitten compared to the examples. And NOTHING worthy of trading him.
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Last edited by Ihategeeks; 01-22-2005 at 01:14 AM.
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Old 01-22-2005   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ihategeeks
(this post is a bunch of out of context statements from other posts about Randy Moss)


Space Time Randy Ratio
You find it acceptable for other teams to give up star players and draft picks for Randy Moss
Yet in the same discussions are you willing to diminish the effect Randy Moss has on the Vikings offense to justify it.

About that vikes offense.

Go take a harder look at Culpepper in the games Randy Moss played in , and the ones he didn't (take note he played in 2 games but was limited to a couple plays)



Pep -
---------------------------Moss Healthy
5 -
1 -
2 -
5 -
5 -
-------------Total
18 - in 5 games
---------------------------Moss gets injured
1 -
1 -
1 -
4 -
2 -
----------------
9 - in 5 games 1.9 per game average 28.8 TD's over 16 games
----------------------------Moss is Back and still injured
1 -
2 -
1 -
3 -
3 -
2 -
-----------------Total
12 - in 6 games
-----------------
30 Td's in games moss played, 2.72 per game average 43.52 TD's over 16 games.

Randy Moss had 13 Td's, thats 33% of the TD's culpepper threw in 11 games.

I don't have alot of games without moss to give a better average, but you can still CLEARLY see the dramatic drop off in production without Moss.

Now here is why I think this whole Randy Moss Trade talk is insanity.

Are you willing to take that much drop in offensive production, and replace it with Defensive production that may or may not have a dramatic effect, and a draft pick that may or may not bust?

You could trade Randy Moss for Ray Lewis and a 1st round pick. Ray Lewis isn't going to match the defensive production gained equal to the offensive production lost. Then you throw in a draft pick that is a complete wildcard. Unless you end up with a Hall of Fame defensive player or pro bowl offensive player out of that pick, you are not getting a fair trade. And that pick isn't going to have a big impact his first year unless it is a huge jackpot.

Offense and Defense
The only way you can justify trading Moss is if you lessen his signifcance in the offense. And thats not an easy sell. Not one person has made any good arguement as to how this isn't going to be a handgrenade into the bedsheets of the offense.


24.7 points per game is how many the defense gave up.

25.7 in games moss plays.

24.4 in games he doesn't (indy packers detroit bears jags)

Without Moss Minnesota is no longer outscoring how many Points a game it's defense is giving up. Also you probally can drop that number of games moss doesn't play in since you don't get to play the worst defense in the nfl every week.

Trading your Strength to Improve your Weakness results in Mediocrity. When the strength is Offense and the weakness defense, because in a 1 for 1 or 1 and for potential , the effect offense is 2 fold that of defense (and a good reason they make 2 times as much money)
The realistic benifits do not out wieght the realistic detriment.

*shoots fiction basketball into fictional hoop*
Swish baby.


Radom Stats and Projections

Moss Carear Average 12.85 TD's per season

.8 td's a game 4.81 points a game from Randy Moss is what you lose. I think it is resonable to expect to get back a 65% -75% of that from someone like a good stopgap. 3.12 --- 3.60 points per game. 1.69 ---- 1.21 difference.

25.7 - 1.69 = 24.01 65%

25.7 - 1.21 = 24.58 75%

If that draft pick isn't a good player you screwed yourself RoYAL.
and even if he is how much is he going to help the defense?



Quote: Moss gets hurt every year? :confused2
BTW, don't say Winfield doesn't make a difference on the D when you admit injuries happen.(On why Minnesota Collapses at the end of the year)


Defensive Collapse
An above average CB on a Terrible defense doesn't have that much of an effect does he. Vikes have had bad defense for a number of consecutive years. The vikes have very little depth at any position except for RB. and TE, and they were already using up that depth at TE since Klinesasser was hurt.

This was a problem before Winny joined the team. And was still a problem after he joined a team, and is the most striking constant durring each collapse in the second half of the season. The defense starts the year pretty good and finishes poorly.

Actaully this year, the Vikes didn't play well on defense at all durring any time durring the season. What did happen in the second half of the year was LESS PRODUCTION FROM THE OFFENSE.
Trading Randy To Improve the Team is a Myth
The Vikes will have 30 million in cap room, they do not need to trade Randy Moss to improve the team.

Red : "we are trading Randy Moss to improve other areas of this team"


Press Guy: "can't you just buy more help in free agency? "


Red: " MOooooooooooooooooRE? ???"

The Vikings can afford help, they were able to do it last year, all they did was get Winfield. The Owner is a cheapskate.


Phillip Bucahnon-
you think a small #2 CB that has never had more than 6 passes defensed in a season, plus the #7 pick in the draft is viable?

viable: per webster #3 capable of working, functioning, or developing adequately



Big Shoes to Fill
And 12 TD's a year is going to have to go somewhere. It's not realistic to expect the running game to just absorb that demand, or any one wr replacing moss. Where does it go? does it get evenly placed to everyone else? Are lets say 4 offensive players able to play at thier same level and on 3 more td's. Also whatever yardage production moss would have had? Thats asking alot. I don't think you would get more than 75% at best and that is if you replace Moss with a true #1 WR. Even while trying to add on this lost production , none of these players will demand the same respect from a defense unless they can dominate a game like Randy did.

I would like to see the look on Culpeppers face when you tell him.

We want you to throw 42 Touchdowns, but this time without Randy Moss, we will offer decent stop gaps for his lost production"
Oh, and Pep, not to add any more pressure, but if you can't do it, we'll lose every game by a field goal. Good Luck Champ.


Locker Room Cancer


Quote:The only way thats true is if you meant body size. I dare you to say that to a Vikes fan and see how many of Minny's OWN fans tell you otherwise.


I don't care what Lions fans think, why would I care what Vikes fans think. Randy Moss on the field antics are nothing compared to what Owens has done.


Quote:When's the last time Owens was in trouble with the law? Had drugs in his car?


I don't know, I know when the last time Randy did. In 2002.

And Steve McNair had a gun in his glovebox and was drunk driving.
Which do you think is worse?

If Randy Moss was thought of as a nicer guy we would just gloss over his incidents wouldn't we? All Moss has been convicted of is misdermeanors. Careless Driving and Weed. No assault on a traffic cop, no lawsuit from said traffic cop, I'm inclined to believe there was no substance to that. Since it was never even brought up in a courtroom. Not exactly a hardened criminal.

But you know what, I fail to see how either incident with either player makes them a cancer to thier football team. These are off the field issues that don't invole anyone but Moss McNair, and the 50's Leave it to Cleaver image of the NFL.


You want an example of a locker room cancer?

Running your teamates off the team: Kobe Bryant

A guy that goes around starting fights. Bill Romanoski.

A guy that invites players over to parties to snort coke off the back of strippers. Micheal Irvin.

A guy that slanders teamates and coaches in the media and sidelines. Owens.

Moss has never raped or killed anyone. Yet Kobe Bryant plays in the NBA, and Jason Williams is working on a comeback. The worst thing Moss has done was walk off the field 2 seconds early. Matt Birk got pissed yelled at Moss. Moss said he would make it up to the team, and he did in the next game scoring 2TD's

Cancer He is Not. Occasionally a problem? Yes, but a Kitten compared to the examples. And NOTHING worthy of trading him.
THANK YOU. Wonderful post.
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Old 01-22-2005   #8
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Did you have to quote the entire thing? o_O

I would want to agree with Ihategeeks, but that doesn't explain how Randy's lack of effort in the Divisional Round can be tolerable.

I mean, one blunder bends the wood board. That show of motivation just broke it IMO.

C'mon, 3 dropped passes? Ankle or not, Moss should have made those. One, I know he clearly pulled a Pinkston on.
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Old 01-22-2005   #9
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Quote:
You want an example of a locker room cancer?

Running your teamates off the team: Kobe Bryant

A guy that goes around starting fights. Bill Romanoski.

A guy that invites players over to parties to snort coke off the back of strippers. Micheal Irvin.

A guy that slanders teamates and coaches in the media and sidelines. Owens.
Actually, Romanowski and Irvin are the complete opposites of locker room cancers.
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Old 01-22-2005   #10
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True. Irvin has a lurid past but he was never a locker room "cancer" or problem.
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Old 01-22-2005   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GotMojo80
picking up Mike Williams? idk about the Raiders but Porter, Moss and Williams would be to many "ball hogs" for me. They would prob get mabye secondary for the loss of Buchannon or o-line
I think you miss the point GotMojo80. The Vikings would get Buchanon and the Raiders #7 overall pick. The Raiders would get Moss. The Vikings could then draft (with the Raider's #7 pick), Mike Williams to replace the now departed Randy Moss. Does that make sense now?
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Old 01-22-2005   #12
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I thought I read where the Raiders were thinking about drafting one of the top receivers in the draft..meaning they probably wouldn't care to pick up Moss in a trade.
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Old 01-22-2005   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huge
Actually, Romanowski and Irvin are the complete opposites of locker room cancers.
If Irvin was snorting coke by himself I would agree

If Romanowski wasn't putting his own teamates on the IR I would agree.


Oh wait, so I guess I don't agree. What is a locker room cancer? Someone that litterally gives his teamates cancer?
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Old 01-22-2005   #14
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Quote:
If Irvin was snorting coke by himself I would agree

If Romanowski wasn't putting his own teamates on the IR I would agree.


Oh wait, so I guess I don't agree. What is a locker room cancer? Someone that litterally gives his teamates cancer?
I would define a "locker room cancer" as somebody that is constantly causing distractions that become detrimental to the team.

Irvin's drug incident was one incident. Romo punching out a teammate was one incident that occured near the end of his 15 year career.

Leonard Little got drunk one night and got behind the wheel and ended up killing somebody. A few years later, he was busted for DUI again. But I still wouldn't call him a "locker room cancer". A low-life POS but not a cancer.

Irvin and Romo did whatever it took to help their teams win. Their off the field incidences does not detract from the team players that they were. To me, that takes them out of the "cancer" category.
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Old 01-22-2005   #15
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I always thought all the Cows were doing crack [except for maybe Aikman... concussions are his high].

Crack is more of a team-bonder for the Cows anyways...
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Old 01-22-2005   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gg no re
I always thought all the Cows were doing crack [except for maybe Aikman... concussions are his high].

Crack is more of a team-bonder for the Cows anyways...

What a silly post. Are you not aware that concussions can sometimes be fatal? Are you not aware that concussions can have and often do have long term effects on the person suffering one? Guess not. I don't remember the Steeler players name but I heard him say that he suffered one during a game and had double vision for years, horrible headaches and sometimes memory loss even over the simplest things....his address, his phone number, his birthdate.

I'm fairly confident Troy Aikman never got "high" from having a concussion.
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Old 01-23-2005   #17
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Quote:
Irvin's drug incident was one incident.
No his drug incident was 1 time being caught, It wasn't the only time it happened.



Quote:
Romo punching out a teammate was one incident that occured near the end of his 15 year career.
Romo has been starting fights with teamates his entire 15 year career.
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Old 01-23-2005   #18
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WWJD: I apologize if I made you mad, but please take my humor attempt lightly. You know that joking term "I guess he took too many hits to the head".

I'm well aware concussions and other injuries are not cool, but I was hoping it would bring a chuckle if you read the stuff Aikman posts up on NFL.com, that is, how he's an armchair QB in a pro QB's body. [especially that Offense and Defense Efficiency Rating he made himself] >_>
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Old 01-23-2005   #19
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No need to apologize...I didn't find the post funny surely but I don't get mad over internet opinions. You're entitled to post here and if that's your opinion ....I saw Troy suffer a few concussions in person and it was never funny. It actually was the reason he ended up retiring and I don't blame him for that.

As for his rating system I've seen it; I don't understand it but I don't understand any of that stuff. Some people really put a lot of stock in ratings and I guess he wanted to try something new. I've read a few people opinions on it being a good system but like I said I don't understand that stuff.
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Old 01-23-2005   #20
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if Moss leaves the Vikings.. I see him going to the Ravens. The Ravens would want him.. and would pay for him (they wanted T.O. last year) and Ray Lewis would keep Moss in check. Plus, they have defensive players to spare for a trade, and Moss has said before that he wouldnt mind playing for the Ravens. Also, im sure he wants to go to a team that would be competitive, and the Raiders and Redskins are definatly not sure things like the Ravens.
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