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Old 04-13-2009   #1
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Default Are we just going to ignore the run?

We got maybe one chance at getting a NT to stop the run a priority issue identified by team. Shaun Cody Phhht! Okam, yeah maybe. Trade up for Raji? Not happening. It has to be Brace in trade down or our pick in 2nd if he's there. Otherwise, oops there goes another running back.
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Old 04-13-2009   #2
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Default Re: Are we just going to ignore the run?

You don't need a guy like Brace to stop the run. If you did, then every team in the league would have a fat ass in the middle.

Tommie Harris weighs 295 and nobody runs over him.
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Old 04-13-2009   #3
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Default Re: Are we just going to ignore the run?

There's plenty of run stuffers in this draft, it doesn't just end with the BC boys. The trouble comes when trying to find a guy that can stuff the run AND rush the passer.
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Old 04-13-2009   #4
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Default Re: Are we just going to ignore the run?

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Originally Posted by badboy View Post
We got maybe one chance at getting a NT to stop the run a priority issue identified by team. Shaun Cody Phhht! Okam, yeah maybe. Trade up for Raji? Not happening. It has to be Brace in trade down or our pick in 2nd if he's there. Otherwise, oops there goes another running back.

3 of the 5 top ranked teams against the rush were 4-3 teams and of those teams the vikings have the only real notable "run stuffing DTs". The giants starting lineup is equatble to ours in size. So are the bears and eagles. I think Kollar's career has shown he can get good production from smaller guys and I expect our DTs to be more at home shooting the gaps and penetrating instead of attempting to be run stuffing DTs. Honestly I've been pretty frustrated having drafted two DTs whose big postives coming out of college where their speed and getting to the QB and putting them in roles that don't suit them well. Then again that has seemed the hallmark of the Richard smith defense.

I'm not saying this team NEEDS a top 10 defense to go to the playoffs but, if we can get to the first step of getting towards middle of the pack and more importantly having them get third down stops we'll be a team that's tough to beat with our offense.

I equate this the same way some people are the board are gung ho that we NEED a big power back to compliment Slaton. Power/speed whatever we need a guy that can pick up carries and get in the endzone.
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Old 04-13-2009   #5
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Default Re: Are we just going to ignore the run?

Fili Moala in the 3rd

Good run stuffer but not big enough for the 3-4 NT. Great value if he's there
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Old 04-13-2009   #6
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Default Re: Are we just going to ignore the run?

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Originally Posted by Goldensilence View Post
3 of the 5 top ranked teams against the rush were 4-3 teams and of those teams the vikings have the only real notable "run stuffing DTs". The giants starting lineup is equatble to ours in size. So are the bears and eagles. I think Kollar's career has shown he can get good production from smaller guys and I expect our DTs to be more at home shooting the gaps and penetrating instead of attempting to be run stuffing DTs. Honestly I've been pretty frustrated having drafted two DTs whose big postives coming out of college where their speed and getting to the QB and putting them in roles that don't suit them well. Then again that has seemed the hallmark of the Richard smith defense.

I equate this the same way some people are the board are gung ho that we NEED a big power back to compliment Slaton. Power/speed whatever we need a guy that can pick up carries and get in the endzone.
Good post, I agree on both points.

As far as stopping the run, I think we need to get better at recognizing the situation & the play. I recently watched the Miami game, and the Oakland game, and while we gave up some big plays, there were several moments of good, solid run D.

Same thing on Offense. You could see the progress of our OLine as the year went on. If we can get more consistent at doing that.. then we won't see too many of those goal line stands against us.
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Old 04-13-2009   #7
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Default Re: Are we just going to ignore the run?

There are some later round big guys if that's what you want. The first 3 guys should be pretty good against the run.

Chris Baker-326 lbs.
Dorell Scott-314
Sammie Lee Hill-329
Terrance Knighton-317
Roy Miller-312
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Old 04-14-2009   #8
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Default Re: Are we just going to ignore the run?

Improving our LB's should help against the run also.
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Old 04-14-2009   #9
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Default Re: Are we just going to ignore the run?

So to summarize the above threads, I have nothing to worry about 'cause other teams defensive line can stop the run? The new defensive coaches (how many now have we had?) including Bush who was here last year, can now turn it around with basically the same guys because.......? Maybe we can have training films where our Dline watch other teams' dlines and our coaches can say "See? There you go!"

I apologise for the sarcasm, but I am very frustrated at seeing a 303lb (roster weight) Travis Johnson and 302 lb Okoye both #1 picks not do the job. And I understand it is not simply an issue of "fat" or Okam would be a hall of famer. DelJuan Robinson looked "promising" I guess is the word but sheesh. We are going to put the eggs in our basket in the hands of linebackers that are lighter so they can fade with a TE or help against a WR? Our heaviest LB from last year Greenwood is gone (no issue for me). Chaun Thompson is a back up and Demeco at 250 will probably get the hell beat out of him again. It would be nice to see Dlinemen and occasionally a LB get in a QB's personal space, but not if the QB gets the rock to a RB that ends up down field.

May be Bush and Kollar can do an imitation of our Oline coaches and keep the Dline on the field more games and improve the "routes to the QB" and close the running lanes. I for one hope our defensive back field can shut down the passing game and keep everything in front of them. I want our linebackers to attack the line. Maybe that will be enough.

McShay and Kiper (I know but they were at least on the air) last night said BJ Raji and QB Sanchez could cause the most trade talk. I also realize our #1 DT selections have been pretty poor so far, but Raji seems as near to "can't miss" as I've seen. Kiper called him "one of a kind that collapses the pocket, stops the run and can get to the QB." A radio talk show I listened to Saturday said basically same thing.

Last night, I am working out trade up scenarios for Raji. I just think that would cost a 4th and I do not want to give it up. Sigh.

At least I now know stopping the run is no longer one of our priority areas. I have a call in to Smith and Kubiac to inform them.
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Old 04-14-2009   #10
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Default Re: Are we just going to ignore the run?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf6151 View Post
There are some later round big guys if that's what you want. The first 3 guys should be pretty good against the run.


Roy Miller-312
This is who I want. If I'm not mistaken, though, he may be more of a pass rushing DT.
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Old 04-14-2009   #11
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Default Re: Are we just going to ignore the run?

Sammie Lee Hill should be available in the 6th. That is my guy.
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Old 04-14-2009   #12
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Default Re: Are we just going to ignore the run?

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Originally Posted by El Tejano View Post
This is who I want. If I'm not mistaken, though, he may be more of a pass rushing DT.
Miller is the complete package.

He can collapse the pocket and is sturdy against the run.

He isn't great at either of those, but he is good at both of them. He will drop to the 4th round because he doesn't really stand out. He is just a solid player.
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Old 04-14-2009   #13
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Default Re: Are we just going to ignore the run?

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Originally Posted by badboy View Post
So to summarize the above threads, I have nothing to worry about 'cause other teams defensive line can stop the run? The new defensive coaches (how many now have we had?) including Bush who was here last year, can now turn it around with basically the same guys because.......? Maybe we can have training films where our Dline watch other teams' dlines and our coaches can say "See? There you go!"

I apologise for the sarcasm, but I am very frustrated at seeing a 303lb (roster weight) Travis Johnson and 302 lb Okoye both #1 picks not do the job. And I understand it is not simply an issue of "fat" or Okam would be a hall of famer. DelJuan Robinson looked "promising" I guess is the word but sheesh. We are going to put the eggs in our basket in the hands of linebackers that are lighter so they can fade with a TE or help against a WR? Our heaviest LB from last year Greenwood is gone (no issue for me). Chaun Thompson is a back up and Demeco at 250 will probably get the hell beat out of him again. It would be nice to see Dlinemen and occasionally a LB get in a QB's personal space, but not if the QB gets the rock to a RB that ends up down field.

May be Bush and Kollar can do an imitation of our Oline coaches and keep the Dline on the field more games and improve the "routes to the QB" and close the running lanes. I for one hope our defensive back field can shut down the passing game and keep everything in front of them. I want our linebackers to attack the line. Maybe that will be enough.

McShay and Kiper (I know but they were at least on the air) last night said BJ Raji and QB Sanchez could cause the most trade talk. I also realize our #1 DT selections have been pretty poor so far, but Raji seems as near to "can't miss" as I've seen. Kiper called him "one of a kind that collapses the pocket, stops the run and can get to the QB." A radio talk show I listened to Saturday said basically same thing.

Last night, I am working out trade up scenarios for Raji. I just think that would cost a 4th and I do not want to give it up. Sigh.

At least I now know stopping the run is no longer one of our priority areas. I have a call in to Smith and Kubiac to inform them.
I'm a little bit curious. Considering the draft isn't for almost two weeks (and assuming it's not fair to criticize them for something that hasn't happened yet), what could they have done to this point that would have made you feel more positive about things, and what opportunities have been missed by Smithiak that would have convinced you that stopping the run was as high a priority as you want it to be?
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Old 04-14-2009   #14
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Default Re: Are we just going to ignore the run?

Going along with badboy's sentiments I got to thinking about out LBs. It seems the staff is wanting smaller faster LBs- Adibi, June, etc. (maybe?) But we also want the DL to collapse the pocket. I wonder if the DL is consistently getting into the backfield, the offense would have to run more plays closer to the LOS (if the play can't develop) and the LBs would be forced to close in on the WR/RBs that catch the ball quickly.

With that said, I made a thread a while back about the team getting more QB sacks. I made the arguement that it starts with 1st and 2nd down, and our ability to stop the offense from any gains (or much) on these downs. This forces the offense into 3rd and longs and that's when you have the best chances for pressure and/or a sack. Qb has to let the play develop more to get the extra yards for a 1st down.

The majority of the defenses last year that were leading in sacks also had good run defenses.
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Old 04-14-2009   #15
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Default Re: Are we just going to ignore the run?

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Originally Posted by Ole Miss Texan View Post
Going along with badboy's sentiments I got to thinking about out LBs. It seems the staff is wanting smaller faster LBs- Adibi, June, etc. (maybe?) But we also want the DL to collapse the pocket. I wonder if the DL is consistently getting into the backfield, the offense would have to run more plays closer to the LOS (if the play can't develop) and the LBs would be forced to close in on the WR/RBs that catch the ball quickly.

With that said, I made a thread a while back about the team getting more QB sacks. I made the arguement that it starts with 1st and 2nd down, and our ability to stop the offense from any gains (or much) on these downs. This forces the offense into 3rd and longs and that's when you have the best chances for pressure and/or a sack. Qb has to let the play develop more to get the extra yards for a 1st down.
The majority of the defenses last year that were leading in sacks also had good run defenses.

That's primarily if its 3rd & really long. 3rd & longs are technically classified as anything 5 yards or more for the 1st. With the speed on the outside these days, that's a 3 step, quick slant with the ball coming out of the qb's hands before the D-linemen are even off their blockers. In both situations, your Lb's are the key though.
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Old 04-14-2009   #16
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Default Re: Are we just going to ignore the run?

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That's primarily if its 3rd & really long. 3rd & longs are technically classified as anything 5 yards or more for the 1st. With the speed on the outside these days, that's a 3 step, quick slant with the ball coming out of the qb's hands before the D-linemen are even off their blockers. In both situations, your Lb's are the key though.
True, and we're getting quicker more athletic LBs. I think if you consistently stop the run on the first two downs, you should get the offense into 3rd & 7, 3rd & 8's and maybe even 3rd & 10's. Now you've got your DL pinning their ears back and your 2 LBs covering and an extra DB enters the field to cover as well. 5 DBs and 2 coverage LBs.

Now you get into what play the offense is running. you've got 3 options (to be simple). 1. Throw it short and let the RB/WR run past the 1st down marker 2. Throw it right around the 10yd marker or 3. Throw it farther past and gain more yards.

With 1... the QB gets rid of it quickly and there really isn't much chance of a sack. For options 2 and 3, you've got a better chance of putting pressure on the QB. The more guys you have up close... the less likely the offense converts a 1st down using option #1. Then you run the risk of them throwing over the top in which case your DBs gotta be able to cover.
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Old 04-14-2009   #17
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Default Re: Are we just going to ignore the run?

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Miller is the complete package.

He can collapse the pocket and is sturdy against the run.

He isn't great at either of those, but he is good at both of them. He will drop to the 4th round because he doesn't really stand out. He is just a solid player.
Yeah, I like Miller alot.
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Old 04-14-2009   #18
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Default Re: Are we just going to ignore the run?

Hopefully with a tweak here and there on offense they will be putting up points the whole game and forcing other team's hand. Hard to keep calling runs when the only thing running is the clock.

I think we'd all like to see the perfect D but if we only get to fix one thing I'm going for fixing the back 7. The D-line is the strength of this D and that's not saying too much. OLB, DB's galore at the draft makes Timekiller a happy fan.
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Old 04-14-2009   #19
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Default Re: Are we just going to ignore the run?

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Originally Posted by badboy View Post
So to summarize the above threads, I have nothing to worry about 'cause other teams defensive line can stop the run? The new defensive coaches (how many now have we had?) including Bush who was here last year, can now turn it around with basically the same guys because.......? Maybe we can have training films where our Dline watch other teams' dlines and our coaches can say "See? There you go!"

I apologise for the sarcasm, but I am very frustrated at seeing a 303lb (roster weight) Travis Johnson and 302 lb Okoye both #1 picks not do the job. And I understand it is not simply an issue of "fat" or Okam would be a hall of famer. DelJuan Robinson looked "promising" I guess is the word but sheesh. We are going to put the eggs in our basket in the hands of linebackers that are lighter so they can fade with a TE or help against a WR? Our heaviest LB from last year Greenwood is gone (no issue for me). Chaun Thompson is a back up and Demeco at 250 will probably get the hell beat out of him again. It would be nice to see Dlinemen and occasionally a LB get in a QB's personal space, but not if the QB gets the rock to a RB that ends up down field.

May be Bush and Kollar can do an imitation of our Oline coaches and keep the Dline on the field more games and improve the "routes to the QB" and close the running lanes. I for one hope our defensive back field can shut down the passing game and keep everything in front of them. I want our linebackers to attack the line. Maybe that will be enough.

McShay and Kiper (I know but they were at least on the air) last night said BJ Raji and QB Sanchez could cause the most trade talk. I also realize our #1 DT selections have been pretty poor so far, but Raji seems as near to "can't miss" as I've seen. Kiper called him "one of a kind that collapses the pocket, stops the run and can get to the QB." A radio talk show I listened to Saturday said basically same thing.

Last night, I am working out trade up scenarios for Raji. I just think that would cost a 4th and I do not want to give it up. Sigh.

At least I now know stopping the run is no longer one of our priority areas. I have a call in to Smith and Kubiac to inform them.
Working a trade for Raji is going to cost a hell of a lot more then a 4th. Realistically we'd probably have to trade into the top 10.Took a third and sixth alone to get Baltimore from the 28th to 18th. You're looking at giving up at LEAST a third. Got the NT you want but likely shafting the rest of our draft. Hell honestly if all someone wanted was a fourth to move up to land him...I'd do it but I don't see it coming at that cost.

My point still is looking at the other top 10 teams in run defense 7-10 were 4-3 defenses. Minnesota #1 has the Williams "twins". Pitt and Baltimore 2 3-4s. Active quick Lbers. Now it gets interesting Eagles # 4 starters Bunkley and Patterson listed as 292 and 307. Not exactly the hamburger munching DTs you are talking a bout. Bears DTs Harris and Dvoracek 295 and 307. Haynesworth is gone but he's listed at 320 and his fellow starter Tony Brown...a whopping....290. Kris Jenkins with the Jets ok...THAT's you hamburger gobbling DT 349 Coleman 295. Next Washington's starters hover around 300 one being 302 and other 298. Giants Cofield 306 and Robbins 317. Miami runs a 3-4.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorysta...1&d-447263-n=1

Of the 4-3 defenses here in the top ten there's a not a lot of hamburger gobbling DTs you are pining for. The Dts we have are really not that different in size Okoye 306 and Johnson 317. I think the biggest difference we'll see in our defense is no longer have a DEs drop in coverage. We've got LBers that can cover space in the flats. With Dunta healthy for at least this coming season we'll likely, get this idea, see him covering the other teams best WR no matter what side he's on. I think by subtracting Greenwood,Weaver and Richard Smith our front 7 is better by default. Not saying our run defense is solved but I think we'll be better out of the gate.

I think Smith has done a good job this offseason of not painting us into a corner where we can go 1st round. We can roll with the offense, though I think we need an upgrade at C and RG. When have we been able to say that though? I don't think we NEED to go defense in the first round, just think that's likely where we'll go unless we trade back. Depending on where we trade back to, if possible, then you start debating value and BPA. Is the 4th best LB in draft better then best C in draft? Who becomes a reach on that first and second round border?

It's just nice to know this draft isn't necessarily about NEEDs anymore but about upgrading spots. For a Texan fan...that's a luxury.
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Old 04-14-2009   #20
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Default Re: Are we just going to ignore the run?

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Originally Posted by bah007 View Post
Miller is the complete package.

He can collapse the pocket and is sturdy against the run.

He isn't great at either of those, but he is good at both of them. He will drop to the 4th round because he doesn't really stand out. He is just a solid player.
in our member mock draft selecting for the Chiefs I took Miller in the 5th #131st overall. I beleive he also fits the Texans scheme, if he were to slide to Texans 5th rd. pick I'm on board
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