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Old 04-13-2009   #41
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Default Re: Will vs. Sam

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Originally Posted by barrett View Post
I challenge you to find one scenario where we were blitzing from 10 yards behind the line of scrimmage.

I still think you're optimism is distorting and making too many assumptions about Frank Bush's vague chat responses.
Barrett, that's my point. When we blitzed, our blitzers moved up to the LOS... there was very little disguise... we all saw it!

Bush made two points in that chat session where he clearly stated that he was going to be different than Richard Smith:

1. DBs will be lined up closer to the LOS regularly, particularly the CBs.
2. Team will be aggressive in attempting to make big plays, even at the risk of giving some up. The quote was something like, "we will play defense to win and not to not lose".


Those two points clearly highlight philosophical differences, especially when he say, "this is how we're going to be different...". Of course I sound optimistic. Any description of changes from Richard Smith's defense, by definition, is going to sound like a fantasy.

I definitely tend to be optimistic. That being said, I was one of the first critics of Richard Smith on the board. So, if my perspective is biased with this coaching change, it probably has more to do with my pessimism towards Richard Smith- and, I'm not sure "pessimism" is possible regarding Richard Smith's abilities as a defensive coordinator.

Again, I'm not predicting that our defense will rate highly. I'm not sure how they will do in regards to YPG or PPG. What I have the utmost confidence in, is it will be significantly better on 3rd down, register many more sacks, create more turnovers, and be a heck of a lot more fun to watch.
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Old 04-13-2009   #42
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Default Re: Will vs. Sam

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Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
Barrett, that's my point. When we blitzed, our blitzers moved up to the LOS... there was very little disguise... we all saw it!

Bush made two points in that chat session where he clearly stated that he was going to be different than Richard Smith:

1. DBs will be lined up closer to the LOS regularly, particularly the CBs.
2. Team will be aggressive in attempting to make big plays, even at the risk of giving some up.
The quote was something like, "we will play defense to win and not to not lose".


Those two points clearly highlight philosophical differences, especially when he say, "this is how we're going to be different...". Of course I sound optimistic. Any description of changes from Richard Smith's defense, by definition, is going to sound like a fantasy.

I definitely tend to be optimistic. That being said, I was one of the first critics of Richard Smith on the board. So, if my perspective is biased with this coaching change, it probably has more to do with my pessimism towards Richard Smith- and, I'm not sure "pessimism" is possible regarding Richard Smith's abilities as a defensive coordinator.

Again, I'm not predicting that our defense will rate highly. I'm not sure how they will do in regards to YPG or PPG. What I have the utmost confidence in, is it will be significantly better on 3rd down, register many more sacks, create more turnovers, and be a heck of a lot more fun to watch.
Like I've said, the Texans had been doing that after the Lions' game.
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Old 04-13-2009   #43
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Default Re: Will vs. Sam

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From what I witnessed, the Texans played up closer to the line of scrimmage a fair bit. I think Bush will be able to do more just because I think our defense will have more talent and speed than it had last year.

What I don't want Bush to do is forget about opposing personnel to the fact where he's trying to play aggresively but it's not working. I think we'll be more talented next year, but I don't see us as a defense that can come out and dictate what an offense does on a week to week basis.

That's why I said I think the most noticeable difference in scheme will be the play of the D-line...

.

What you need to look at is how the defense aligned and played before the second losing streak. It was in the midst of that losing streak that Richard Smith was forced, one way or another, to change the defense.

Look at the game at Indy! If you watch that game with a critical eye, you realize that Richard Smith was so afraid of exposing his defense to the big play that he gave the game to Indy. Our offense was unstoppable that day. However, with the game in doubt in the second half and despite Mario William absolutely owning Tony Ugoh, our defense sat back in a soft shell and allowed the Colts to control the clock and march down for the game-icing score. It is that attitude that will change, according to Bush. I know our talent level on defense isn't elite but I'm not sure how any of you can argue that it's poor, given most of them have only been evaluated under R. Smith's defensive system.

Clearly, the defense has an elite DE and 2 first round DTs in addition to a probowl MLB. While not a talent-rich DBackfield, I've seen much worse. Believe me, a lot of DCs could do much more with those players than he has. You will see that soon enough, I suppose.
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Old 04-13-2009   #44
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Default Re: Will vs. Sam

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Like I've said, the Texans had been doing that after the Lions' game.
Really?.. Okay, watch the game at Indy and then tell me that again!
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Old 04-13-2009   #45
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Default Re: Will vs. Sam

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Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
I guess that's a huge plus for Adibi.

But why move Adibi to Will when they brought Greenwood in and Bentley was brought out? If Greenwood was the better tackler (than Bentley or Adibi) then he should have been starting.

It almost looks like the opposite of what you said. It's like they thought the heirarchy of LB's went:

Bentley
Adibi
Greenwood

And they wanted their highest ranked LB lined up in space instead of in the position over the TE.

I don't know, it confuzzled me.
I don't think this was the case, PN!

Adibi lined up mostly as a SAM.

The Jags set up in a balance 2-TE formation at times, so that might have confused you a bit.

Occasionally, I saw Adibi in the so-called WILL position. But they did that mostly in instances like:

- The RB is offsetting the TE. So Adibi was keying on the RB.
(The Bucs used Cato like that for part of their game plan.)

- They want the DE (usually Mario) and Adibi to control one side, while overloading the other side with other players.
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Old 04-13-2009   #46
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Default Re: Will vs. Sam

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Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
Really?.. Okay, watch the game at Indy and then tell me that again!
Indy 1st drive
1. Playing off LOS, but 2 DBS within 4 yards.
2. 2 DBs on LOS (2 receivers)
3. 3 receivers on one side in diamond formation. You have got to play off the LOS, otherwise, your DBs won't know where to go, they will tangle with each other.
4. 2 DBs on LOS (2 receivers). One drop back just before ball was snapped.
5. 3 DBS on LOS (3 receivers)
6. 1 DB on LOS plus Adibi who pushed the TE away and made the play on Addai with Bennett up to support.
7. 3 DBs on LOS (3 receivers)
8. 1 DB on LOS (3rd and 7, they want to limit the Colts to a FG.)

2nd drive
1. 2 DBs on LOS (2 receivers)
2. Play off LOS on the corners, except Texans showed blitz with 6 men (including Dunta, who drop back as ball was snapped.)
3. 1 DB on LOS, then both DBs dropped back around 3-4 yd off LOS
4. 7 guys in the box (including Dunta) plus 1 DB on LOS

and so on...
I supposed you can continue?!?
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Old 04-13-2009   #47
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Default Re: Will vs. Sam

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
3. 1 DB on LOS, then both DBs dropped back around 3-4 yd off LOS
4. 7 guys in the box (including Dunta) plus 1 DB on LOS

and so on...
I supposed you can continue?!?
& how many times did we blitz a DB? for 2008, I would say if we blitzed, we blitzed with LBs, and very rarely a safety. So I don't think it really mattered where our DBs lined up, in regards to "telling the offense when we were going to blitz"

Playing up, has more to do with our DBs being in position to stop their recievers from catching a 5 yard pass, on 3rd & 2.

At least from a R.Smith scheme perspective.
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Old 04-13-2009   #48
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Default Re: Will vs. Sam

Here, let me continue a little bit more and you can do the rest if you're so inclined.


5. Playing off LOS but with 5 man front (Adibi)
6. Playing off LOS but with 7 in the box (including Dunta)

End of 1st qtr

7. 2 DBS on LOS
8. 2 DBs on LOS (3rd and 10) plus 5 man front
9. 1 DB on LOS plus 6 men up close in the box
10. Play off LOS
11. 3 DBs on LOS, then Dunta dropped back a bit
12. Play off LOS
13. 2 DBs on LOS, plus Dunta within 4 yds and 6 men up close in the box
14. 9 men on LOS blitz, forcing a quick incompletion by Manning and a FG.

3rd drive
1. Play off LOS but with 7 men in the box (including DUnta)
2. 1 DB on LOS plus 2 within 4 yds (Adibi got either a cramp or an ankle sprain on the play and Ryans had the wind knock out of him for a moment.)
3. 6 men front (9 in the box) plus another DB on LOS (3rd and 1) resulted in a one yard loss by Addai and a punt.
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Old 04-13-2009   #49
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Default Re: Will vs. Sam

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
& how many times did we blitz a DB? for 2008, I would say if we blitzed, we blitzed with LBs, and very rarely a safety. So I don't think it really mattered where our DBs lined up, in regards to "telling the offense when we were going to blitz"

Playing up, has more to do with our DBs being in position to stop their recievers from catching a 5 yard pass, on 3rd & 2.

At least from a R.Smith scheme perspective.
You are right, except we weren't talking about blitzing with the DB(s) here.

Anyway, this is the last drive:

1. 3 DBs on LOS plus 7 men in the box (lone safety) showing blitz and creating some confusion forcing a quick incompletion by Manning.
2. 3 DBs on LOS
3. 1 DB on LOS plus Dunta within 4 yds and 6 men in the box and Ferguson coming up quickly.
4. 3 DBs on LOS
5. 3 DBs on LOS plus Ferguson coming up quickly.
6. Play back, but in 4-4 and 2 DBs on the wing. Single safety.
7. 3 DBs on LOS plus 7 in the box
8. 3 DBs on LOS
9. 3 DBs on LOS
10.3 DBs on LOS plus 7 in the box on a blitz, but Addai ran the ball for one yd.
11. 3 DBs on LOS plus 6 man front, incomplete pass. Manning on the ground.
12. 9 men in the box, forcing Manning to call a time out on 3-9
13. Play off the LOS, complete pass just short of a first down.
Call was reversed. They gave the first down to the Colts. Perhaps Faggins got cold feet and dropped back a little to far back.
14. 2 DBs on LOS plus 7 in the box and Ferguson coming up quickly.
15. 2 DBs on LOS and overloading one side, giving a different look.
16. 1 DB on LOS plus 8 man front, plus another DB coming up to LOS before ball was snapped.
Incomplte pass to Clark. FG, Indy led 33-27 with 1:54 to go.

On the road at Indy, in the 4th qtr.
Our offense was moving well.
What else can you ask from the D?
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Old 04-13-2009   #50
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Default Re: Will vs. Sam

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Look at the game at Indy! If you watch that game with a critical eye, you realize that Richard Smith was so afraid of exposing his defense to the big play that he gave the game to Indy. Our offense was unstoppable that day. However, with the game in doubt in the second half and despite Mario William absolutely owning Tony Ugoh, our defense sat back in a soft shell and allowed the Colts to control the clock and march down for the game-icing score.
I don't remember all the details from that game because I only watched it that one time....but....

I do remember our defense holding their own for most of the game and not embarrasing themselves...

IMHO, I don't even look at the last minutes of the game and blame smith for how he played...We had been playing that way all along and were about to ride that very style to a victory... he should have never been in that position to begin with...

We had been doing o.k on defense all day long with against a very high powered offense...

Once the colts got the momentum I don't know if Smith could have done anything different that would have produced better results....I don't see how being more agressive at that point all of a sudden keeps Manning from picking us a part...
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Old 04-13-2009   #51
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Default Re: Will vs. Sam

And if our offense was unstoppable, they could have scored the winning TD with the time left (almost 2 minutes.)
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Old 04-13-2009   #52
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Default Re: Will vs. Sam

Well, I must've got lost somewhere, what are we talking about?
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Old 04-13-2009   #53
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Default Re: Will vs. Sam

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I don't remember all the details from that game because I only watched it that one time....but....

I do remember our defense holding their own for most of the game and not embarrasing themselves...

IMHO, I don't even look at the last minutes of the game and blame smith for how he played...We had been playing that way all along and were about to ride that very style to a victory... he should have never been in that position to begin with...

We had been doing o.k on defense all day long with against a very high powered offense...
Once the colts got the momentum I don't know if Smith could have done anything different that would have produced better results....I don't see how being more agressive at that point all of a sudden keeps Manning from picking us a part...


No, we were fortunate in the first half that Indy had 6 dropped passes. It was probably Indy's worst offensive performance I've ever seen. Granted, perhaps in the second half that could have continued and we would've won. However, my opinion is that good football teams have the ability to win games and not simply hope the games are given to them.
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Old 04-13-2009   #54
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Default Re: Will vs. Sam

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Well, I must've got lost somewhere, what are we talking about?

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Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
If you read the entire chat, he talks about playing the backend closer to the LOS, among other things.

- aggressive pre-snap throughout the play.
- mixing up and disguising coverages

those are two essential things that Richard Smith's defense didn't do.
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I understand, but when the two safeties are 20 yards deep and the 2 CBs are generally 10 yards deep, it limits the options and effectiveness of much of what can be done.
Which I've been trying to show that the Texans were being more agressive than Dale had suggested.

Being more agressive doesn't mean that we would be blitzing constantly.
That much, Kubiak had repeated again and again.
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Old 04-13-2009   #55
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Default Re: Will vs. Sam

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No, we were fortunate in the first half that Indy had 6 dropped passes. It was probably Indy's worst offensive performance I've ever seen. Granted, perhaps in the second half that could have continued and we would've won. However, my opinion is that good football teams have the ability to win games and not simply hope the games are given to them.
NOT EXACTLY TRUE on either count!
Still, the point is the Texans D was more agressive than you had inferred.
(Hint: some dropped passes may be a result of that!)
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Old 04-13-2009   #56
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Default Re: Will vs. Sam

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USC runs a 3-4 Elephant defense where they can blitz the front 7 and or blitz with the front 4 and drop the rest in coverage (seldom done from what I've seen).
USC runs the 4-3 Under, not the 3-4 Elephant. Here is a link.
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Old 04-13-2009   #57
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Default Re: Will vs. Sam

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USC runs the 4-3 Under, not the 3-4 Elephant. Here is a link.

Maybe as there base, but Iv'e seen Brian Cushing play as a stand-up DE in a 3-4 allingment during games.
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Old 04-13-2009   #58
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Default Re: Will vs. Sam

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USC runs the 4-3 Under, not the 3-4 Elephant. Here is a link.

That's correct, but beginning 2006 Carol introduced the 3-4 elephant to confuse the offense. Cushing became known as the "elephant man" as he frequently took that role.


USC unveils the 'elephant' man

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Carroll has introduced his linebackers to the "elephant," a position played by Charles Haley when Carroll was defensive coordinator for the San Francisco 49ers in the mid-'90s. It will allow Carroll to showcase four linebackers on the field at times, a shift from the traditional 4-3 defense that was characteristic of Carroll's past teams.

"It's just an old concept that was there during my days in San Francisco. It's a hybrid defensive lineman and linebacker position where a guy can be a pass rusher or drop back into coverage. So at times it'll look like we're in a 3-4," Carroll said.

Sophomore Brian Cushing has spent the most time in fall camp as the "elephant," although he said junior Keith Rivers has played it in nickel defensive situations and redshirt sophomore Clay Matthews has also spent time at the position in practice.

"We're just trying to get a new look because a lot of teams know our defenses. It lets me be free out on the field," Cushing said.
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Old 04-13-2009   #59
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Default Re: Will vs. Sam

To the original point about slb vs wlb. It really depends on if the coach is a pressure front or contain front. Philly and the giants like 5 man pressure fronts. So the slb needs to be a ex-de that can stand up and still rush the qb. In a traditional contain front, the slb is more coverage guy than anything. Also a thing to note is unless the slb can really cover, he's off the field. The way the nfl is setup, the nickel corner plays 60% of the snaps. So if that guy cant cover or cant rush, he's off the field.

If i remember correctly, bush trained under fisher,johnson,and pendergass. For the most part, those guys are 5 man pressure guys. That means it wouldnt be a surprise to see a slb that can pressure the qb like cushing,english,barwin or someone of that ilk.
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Old 04-14-2009   #60
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Default Re: Will vs. Sam

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Originally Posted by leebigeztx View Post
To the original point about slb vs wlb. It really depends on if the coach is a pressure front or contain front. Philly and the giants like 5 man pressure fronts. So the slb needs to be a ex-de that can stand up and still rush the qb. In a traditional contain front, the slb is more coverage guy than anything. Also a thing to note is unless the slb can really cover, he's off the field. The way the nfl is setup, the nickel corner plays 60% of the snaps. So if that guy cant cover or cant rush, he's off the field.

If i remember correctly, bush trained under fisher,johnson,and pendergass. For the most part, those guys are 5 man pressure guys. That means it wouldnt be a surprise to see a slb that can pressure the qb like cushing,english,barwin or someone of that ilk.
I always looked at Will and Sam as:

Sam lines up on the same side as the TE. Frequently used in coverage on the TE and sometimes on the RB. Has to be strong enough to take on the TE in the run game.

Will would generally be in coverage against a running back or the slot receiver. Frequently used to Blitz. More of a speed guy.

I'd never really considered a Sam a converted DE although it happens from time to time. I'd always thought the Will would be the one better used in blitzes because of the speed difference although a pressure defense should be able send both which requires both to have both speed and skill at rushing the QB. I also always figured the Will would normally be better in coverage and used in the nickel packages.
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