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Old 04-08-2009   #21
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Default Re: owen daniels unhappy as well?????

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if he kicks ass this season (proves consistency), the texans'd seem like idiots if we didn't sign him to a multi year deal.
Right now, I'm thinking the Texans look like idiots for not getting something done sooner. I know no one had any idea Winslow was going to be able to get what he did. $20 mill Guaranteed???

But had the Texans not slept on this, they wouldn't have to deal with the Winslow deal, and we wouldn't have to worry about upsetting/hurting OD.




I think it's obvious, that I don't understand the gravity of the situation.

Let's say he doesn't get a long term deal. He plays his but off next year, goes to another pro-bowl... then what?

His agent & Rick Smith would still need to get together, and put together a deal, to keep him on the team. There is no cap, so it's possible he can get an even bigger deal next year. There's no danger of being franchised. & there's no danger of us not working out a new contract with him.

The only danger is that he gets hurt, and isn't able to play at the level he currently is, or that we expect him to in the future. I understand that is a very real danger, but that has nothing to do with the CBA.
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Old 04-08-2009   #22
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Default Re: owen daniels unhappy as well?????

Winslow's deal is retarded. I don't know if anyone in the league should use that as a yardstick for other TE deals. They'll try, though, I'm sure.

If it came down to OD trying to get Winslow money or walking..... I'd let him walk.

*prepares to duck rocks that are sure to be thrown*
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Old 04-08-2009   #23
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Default Re: owen daniels unhappy as well?????

Let him walk if the price is too high.
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Old 04-08-2009   #24
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Default Re: owen daniels unhappy as well?????

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rick smith is starting to piss me off a little bit here not wanting to pay the players that win games for us... PAY THEM for F sakes...
What are you talking about? How do you figure he doesnt want to pay the players? He offered a contract to Dunta worth 23 Mil in guaranteed money and Dunta turned it down and apparently offered Demeco top 5 linebacker money which also got turned down. So how again is Rick Smith the problem.
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Old 04-08-2009   #25
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Default Re: owen daniels unhappy as well?????

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What are you talking about? How do you figure he doesnt want to pay the players? He offered a contract to Dunta worth 23 Mil in guaranteed money and Dunta turned it down and apparently offered Demeco top 5 linebacker money which also got turned down. So how again is Rick Smith the problem.
Exactly.

He may not be very popular with the players but I appreciate the fact that he's not putting us in cap hell to placate some egos.
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Old 04-08-2009   #26
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Default Re: owen daniels unhappy as well?????

This is where the league should come in and say that the Winslow deal can't be done.

It might be time for the league to institute some sort of veteran free agent "slotting" system, whereby a guy like Winslow and a team like TB isn't going to screw things up for the other 31 teams who now have unhappy TEs because a guy like Winslow just got a huge payday.

I hope Rick Smith says to Daniels and his agent that the Texans are not going to give Daniels $20.01 million guaranteed just because some team decided to throw the bank at Kellen Winslow.

Those kinds of deals are actually screwing things up for all the other players, when you think about it, because the Haynesworths and the Winslows of the NFL are commanding more money than they should. I mean, seriously, those dollars are wayyyy too out of touch with reality when you get down to the nitty gritty of it all. When owners are paying THAT much to a single player, there is less to be had for the normal NFL players.

Maybe there should be the normal NFLPA and then an all-star NFLPA for those players who are literally swimming in multi-million dollar deals?

The Winslow deal is far and away the MOST stupidest deal yet.

This is what causes NFL fans to give it all up and walk away for decades at a time, refusing to watch the NFL.

I know capping salaries of high-paid people in America is considered "liberal" theology, but something has to happen, or the whole thing's going to implode upon itself. The Winslow deal is the perfect example. The past 10 years is littered with examples of NFL players who bank major money without even really deserving it. Is that fair or decent or ethical?
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Old 04-08-2009   #27
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Default Re: owen daniels unhappy as well?????

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It wouldn't surprise me. It is hard to do the things that GMs have to do and be the most liked guy.
Agreed. I'm sure all the former Texans players loved Casserly.
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Old 04-08-2009   #28
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Default Re: owen daniels unhappy as well?????

I'm fine with the players not being best buds with the GM. Especially if it's because the GM is good at his job too.

OD deserves some money but if he's willing to weigh down the team under such a burden of a contract (like Winslow) then he's not really a team player and only after money. Garauntee and incentive up a mulit year contract because he deserves it but don't put a chink in the armor because the team doesn't deserve that, neither do the fans. If that's not good enough let someone else compensate us for taking him.

You know this is pretty much the same stance I have for Demeco and Dunta. The only variance is tone of voice...(errr tone of type?)...for who is being fair to the team and who is starting to be a cry baby.
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Old 04-08-2009   #29
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Default Re: owen daniels unhappy as well?????

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This is where the league should come in and say that the Winslow deal can't be done.
I'm not with that. If the Bucs feel they need him that badly, then let them do it. If it turns around and bites them in the but.... let it.

If it makes Rick Smith's job that much tougher.... so be it. If that means we'll lose OD to a team willing to give him a contract like that...... good for Owen.
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Old 04-08-2009   #30
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Default Re: owen daniels unhappy as well?????

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First of all, I'd rather have OD than Kellen Winslow. I think Winslow is a very good player but he has already had microfracture surgery on his knee. If I'm OD, I think he has a good argument when comparing himself to Winslow.

That being said, with the CBA expiring, there is a mounting threat that OD will loose his opportunity to become a FA in 2010. It is largely this uncertianty that has so many players (OD, DRyans) so adamant about getting a deal done. However, that is a bargaining chip that Rick Smith would be foolish not to use. And, in the end, OD and DRyans will be compelled to take a reasonable deal to avoid missing out on real money for two more years. The only deals to worry about are: KWalter, DRobinson, CPitts... those are the only guys that will be FAs after '09 regardless of the collective bargaining situation. They need to be able to get Walter and Pitts done so they can threaten to use or use the Franchise tag on Dunta again in 2010.

This is what happens when a team has a great draft! 4 years later the team has contract issues. It's actually great news! We have young players that have been producing and there is a market for them!
I am definately not saying I would rather have Winslow......that wasnt the point I was getting across...

OD > winslow.......alll day and twice on sunday....thats not the joke

the joke was his agent saying the bar has been set by winslows 20 mill guaranteed contract.....which is totally out of this atmosphere and we would be dumb to duplicate that.....

If someone wants to give him that kind of deal.....let him take it...and get compensated rather then screw the salary cap up over any position player not named QB....

TE are easier to find than a franchise back or QB
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Old 04-08-2009   #31
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Default Re: owen daniels unhappy as well?????

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I am definately not saying I would rather have Winslow......that wasnt the point I was getting across...

OD > winslow.......alll day and twice on sunday....thats not the joke

the joke was his agent saying the bar has been set by winslows 20 mill guaranteed contract.....which is totally out of this atmosphere and we would be dumb to duplicate that.....

If someone wants to give him that kind of deal.....let him take it...and get compensated rather then screw the salary cap up over any position player not named QB....

TE are easier to find than a franchise back or QB
Well lemme say this, OD's agent is just doing his job. OD would be stupid to stay with the guy if he didnt say something like that. The agent's job is soley to get OD as much money as he can, and that statement will likely do that.

As much as we hate to hear it, this is the price we pay for talented players. Granted "soldier" money is totally out of whack but again it needed to be said that way.
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Old 04-08-2009   #32
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Default Re: owen daniels unhappy as well?????

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Originally Posted by GP View Post
This is where the league should come in and say that the Winslow deal can't be done.

It might be time for the league to institute some sort of veteran free agent "slotting" system, whereby a guy like Winslow and a team like TB isn't going to screw things up for the other 31 teams who now have unhappy TEs because a guy like Winslow just got a huge payday.

I hope Rick Smith says to Daniels and his agent that the Texans are not going to give Daniels $20.01 million guaranteed just because some team decided to throw the bank at Kellen Winslow.

Those kinds of deals are actually screwing things up for all the other players, when you think about it, because the Haynesworths and the Winslows of the NFL are commanding more money than they should. I mean, seriously, those dollars are wayyyy too out of touch with reality when you get down to the nitty gritty of it all. When owners are paying THAT much to a single player, there is less to be had for the normal NFL players.

Maybe there should be the normal NFLPA and then an all-star NFLPA for those players who are literally swimming in multi-million dollar deals?

The Winslow deal is far and away the MOST stupidest deal yet.

This is what causes NFL fans to give it all up and walk away for decades at a time, refusing to watch the NFL.

I know capping salaries of high-paid people in America is considered "liberal" theology, but something has to happen, or the whole thing's going to implode upon itself. The Winslow deal is the perfect example. The past 10 years is littered with examples of NFL players who bank major money without even really deserving it. Is that fair or decent or ethical?
Yeah, I agree. THe problem you're describing has killed the MLB and really hurt the NBA a lot worse as well. Now the NFL hasn't gotten hurt by it nearly as bad as those two, but they need to recognize that and realize that is a big reason as to why the parity has been what is has been around the NFL and why it has been as competitive of a league as it has been in this decade.

They need to start with the rookie contracts first and fix that problem though. At some point the NFL needs to assess what has made them more successful in the last 10 years and realize that certain free agent's contracts are starting to get out of hand and it could be a slippery slope from this point on if they don't do something soon.
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Old 04-08-2009   #33
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Default Re: owen daniels unhappy as well?????

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What are you talking about? How do you figure he doesnt want to pay the players? He offered a contract to Dunta worth 23 Mil in guaranteed money and Dunta turned it down and apparently offered Demeco top 5 linebacker money which also got turned down. So how again is Rick Smith the problem.
If these reports are true, I think you are right. Unfortunately, our franchise is not yet at a caliber where players will take into account an intangible value to being part of this team - so it is all about the money.

I'd like to believe that we get a deal done with all three of these guys - but I have a feeling that OD and DR are the only deals that get done. Dunta turned down a great deal this year - which makes me believe that he just doesn't want to be in Houston. If he plays well, I see him taking more money/ or even an equal match and leave Houston. If he doesn't play well, there is no way he will agree to a contract worth less money here - the guy is too proud and it will just eat him up inside that he was forced to settle for a lesser deal.

This being the case, I would agree with a blurb from LZ's blog that you deal Dunta this year and get a high pick for him.
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Old 04-08-2009   #34
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Default Re: owen daniels unhappy as well?????

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If these reports are true, I think you are right. Unfortunately, our franchise is not yet at a caliber where players will take into account an intangible value to being part of this team - so it is all about the money.

I'd like to believe that we get a deal done with all three of these guys - but I have a feeling that OD and DR are the only deals that get done. Dunta turned down a great deal this year - which makes me believe that he just doesn't want to be in Houston. If he plays well, I see him taking more money/ or even an equal match and leave Houston. If he doesn't play well, there is no way he will agree to a contract worth less money here - the guy is too proud and it will just eat him up inside that he was forced to settle for a lesser deal.

This being the case, I would agree with a blurb from LZ's blog that you deal Dunta this year and get a high pick for him.
It would also send a message that no one is untouchable. We're gonna give you X amount, and if you don't like it, we'll tag you and trade you. Have fun in Cincinati or Detroit.
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Old 04-08-2009   #35
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Default Re: owen daniels unhappy as well?????

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Right now, I'm thinking the Texans look like idiots for not getting something done sooner.
...
Let's say he doesn't get a long term deal. He plays his but off next year, goes to another pro-bowl... then what?

His agent & Rick Smith would still need to get together, and put together a deal, to keep him on the team. There is no cap, so it's possible he can get an even bigger deal next year. There's no danger of being franchised. & there's no danger of us not working out a new contract with him.

The only danger is that he gets hurt, and isn't able to play at the level he currently is, or that we expect him to in the future. I understand that is a very real danger, but that has nothing to do with the CBA.
As I understand it, if no long-term deals are worked out with Ryans and Daniels, both of them will be Restricted Free Agents next year, under the current CBA. That is, the rules will change next year (assuming no new CBA), and it will take 6 years (instead of the current 4) to be considered an unrestricted free agent. It's true that it will be uncapped, so that theoretically they could both earn even more money. But, neither will be free to negotiate with other teams.

That's actually a big advantage on Rick Smith's side right now, and part of why Daniels and Ryans want long-term contracts. If they don't get something long-term worked out this year, they can be forced to play for relatively low salaries again next year.
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Old 04-08-2009   #36
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Default Re: owen daniels unhappy as well?????

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I'm not with that. If the Bucs feel they need him that badly, then let them do it. If it turns around and bites them in the but.... let it.

If it makes Rick Smith's job that much tougher.... so be it. If that means we'll lose OD to a team willing to give him a contract like that...... good for Owen.
Well, I'm sorta' partial to the concept of "rewarding within reason," which the Winslow deal is anything but that.

And I DO care that our GM is now facing the situation of having to explain to Owen Daniels why he can't hand out a Winslow'ish deal to OD. That sort of deal is above and beyond what Winslow is worth, and it unfairly causes every TE to confront their GMs on their own contracts. For no good reason whatsoever.

We need to include stats as a contract determinant, such as Games Played, before throwing that ridiculous amount of money at ANY player on ANY team. How many games did Winslow miss due to bizarre injuries?

I want Winslow to be with me when I buy my lotto tickets. I want him with me when I get pulled over by a cop for speeding. I want him with me on job interviews. He's the luckiest guy, in terms of money, I have ever seen.
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Old 04-08-2009   #37
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Default Re: owen daniels unhappy as well?????

You'll never see a cap on individual contracts for veterans. The league would have to break the union in half (like the NBA did 10 years ago) for that to happen. Rookie salaries will be the sacrificial lamb in the upcoming CBA negotiations because the yet-to-be-drafted don't get a vote in the NFLPA.

Re: the Daniels situation. The comments of Owen and his agent are absolutely part of the process. The guy who says publicly, "you know, I'm just not worth Kellen Winslow money" is the guy who gets a substandard contract. The team, for its part, is also playing this correctly by having Kubiak make conciliatory statements (his comments about understanding why Dunta/Demeco aren't participating) for public consumption. Make sure it is the GM, and not the coach, who plays bad cop in this situation.

This is why I think a coach should NEVER have double-duty as a GM. The GM position is inherently adversarial vis-a-vis the players. But a coach must have the players' complete trust.

Other than Andre Johnson, this is the first time the team has had to deal with resigning a player(s) who are significantly better than what they could get if they brought someone in off the street. I know we are all attached Ryans and Daniels, but we can't sacrifice our payroll flexibility going forward just to keep the current crop of RFA/UFA's happy.
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Old 04-08-2009   #38
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Default Re: owen daniels unhappy as well?????

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I know we are all attached Ryans and Daniels, but we can't sacrifice our payroll flexibility going forward just to keep the current crop of RFA/UFA's happy.
Agreed. I doubt Dunta is here another year and that is a big reason why I am so glad we retained him for at least one more season through the franchise tag. Daniels, we'll just have to wait and see what happens. Personally I'd be shocked if any team in the NFL offered him money like what Winslow just got though. If he is getting offered that much or even close to that, then see ya Owen Daniels, it was nice having you here for a while and good luck. No TE is worth that kind of money in the NFL and if anyone should have gotten that or close to that it is Jason WItten and as much as I love Daniels, he ain't Jason Witten.
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Old 04-08-2009   #39
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Anybody think we'll have any holdouts ?
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Old 04-08-2009   #40
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Default Re: owen daniels unhappy as well?????

One of the aspects that might be worth investigating is Tampa Bay having to get to the minimum salary cap. They had so much cap room at the beginning of the off season that they were pretty much forced to do some spending. That was one of the reasons they went so hard after Haynesworth, some reports even stating they offered a little more than Washington. Having said that, where was the outrage when Dallas Clark got a 6 year 36 million deal last season on a team who is always trying to shave salary off the cap to stay under it?
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