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Old 05-28-2004   #1
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Default Any Word on Vontez Duff???

After being intrigued with what we heard of this guy....we have been left with no new info or insight on how he's coming along....does anyone know whats up with Duff???
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Old 05-28-2004   #2
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I really dont think he will be any thing more than a 4th string option, a 3rd string at best, but I would like to know if he is challenging JJ for the returner spot.
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Old 05-28-2004   #3
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By far Duff's best shot to make the team is beating out JJ Moses, which is not as easy as some on the boards might think. Moses might not have been near the home run threat that Dante Hall is but he was by far one of the top return yardage guys in the AFC. Giving the Carr a shorter distance to drive is ALWAYS a good deal!
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Old 05-28-2004   #4
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Quote:
he was by far one of the top return yardage guys in the AFC.
To provide some specifics for this comment, Moses was 6th in the AFC. Of those above him only Hall had anywhere near as many returns as Moses--the rest were at 50% or less (give that as much worth as you feel appropriate). And as a side note--there were a total of 4 kick returns for TD's last year--for those that obsess about home run potential. On the flip side he still takes up a roster spot and if the average field position given up is only 1-2 yards vs. a dual role player then JJ needs to watch out.
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Old 05-28-2004   #5
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For additional comparison:

Moses was 11th in the NFL in kickoff return average.

Jerry Azumah CHI 29.0
Bethel Johnson NE 28.2
Michael Bates NYJ 27.1
Dante Hall KC 25.9
Lamont Brightful BAL 24.7
Reggie Swinton DET 24.1
James Thrash PHI 24.0
Chris Cole DEN 23.8
Michael Lewis NO 23.7
Chad Morton WAS 23.4
J.J. Moses HOU 23.4

Kickoff averages

Moses was 27th in the NFL in punt return average

Dante Hall KC 16.3
Brian Westbrook PHI 15.3
Allen Rossum ATL 14.0
Reggie Swinton DET 13.8
Phillip Buchanon OAK 13.6
R.W. McQuarters CHI 12.2
David Allen JAC 12.0
Antwaan Randle El PIT 12.0
Justin McCareins TEN 11.4
Santana Moss NYJ 11.1
Peter Warrick CIN 10.9
Bobby Engram SEA 10.3
Troy Brown NE 10.1
Steve Smith CAR 10.0
Deltha O'Neal DEN 9.5
Michael Lewis NO 9.2
Eric Parker SD 9.0
Charlie Rogers MIA 8.9
Joey Galloway DAL 8.9
Antonio Chatman GB 8.4
Dennis Northcutt CLE 8.2
Lamont Brightful BAL 7.8
Leon Johnson SD 7.7
Zuriel Smith DAL 7.1
Keenan Howry MIN 7.1
Jimmy Williams SF 6.9
J.J. Moses HOU 6.8

Punt return averages

Last edited by BornOrange; 05-28-2004 at 11:38 PM.
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Old 05-28-2004   #6
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Also, according to the above sites:

There were 11 kickoffs returned for TD's
There were 16 punts returned for TD's
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Old 05-29-2004   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrycak
...if the average field position given up is only 1-2 yards vs. a dual role player then JJ needs to watch out.
Right, but is Duff a dual role player? From everything I've heard, Duff is not much of a CB and was drafted as a return guy. He'd be what, the 6th or 7th CB on the depth chart? I think the starting return job is more important than who is at the bottom of the depth chart at WR or CB. Seems to me that Duff and Moses are in the same boat...win the return job or risk not making the roster.
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Old 05-29-2004   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BornOrange
Also, according to the above sites:

There were 11 kickoffs returned for TD's
There were 16 punts returned for TD's
Sorry, Born is correct, I had the AFC page open--there were only 4 TD's for returns in the AFC is what the statement should have been.
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Old 05-29-2004   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky
Right, but is Duff a dual role player? From everything I've heard, Duff is not much of a CB and was drafted as a return guy. He'd be what, the 6th or 7th CB on the depth chart? I think the starting return job is more important than who is at the bottom of the depth chart at WR or CB. Seems to me that Duff and Moses are in the same boat...win the return job or risk not making the roster.
Wasn't specifically referring to Duff--the Texans have several WR's and Duff that have potential as returners. If any of them looks like they may actually get play time in their dual position then IMO the pressure is much greater on Moses. As a variation on that, KR and PR could almost be viewed as dual roles with respect to Moses and competition--if one of these guys (and I believe Casserly made the comment that Duff had potential on both which was rare) can do above average on both then JJ may be in trouble because while good at KR's, he was at the bottom on PR's.
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Old 05-29-2004   #10
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If both are competent returners, the one that can contribute on the field as an extra DB in passing situations or WR offensively will most likely be the guy we keep. Having a player that can only play on special teams is a liability unless he is elite. I do not view JJ Moses as elite based on what I saw last year. Solid, dependable, but not elite.
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Old 05-29-2004   #11
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Didnt really want to start an entire new thread but whats the word on the hard hitting safety from ND??? I havent heard any updates on him either...go figure....updates and news about the texans...bettter look elsewhere because you wont find any info on them in the houston comical.
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Old 05-29-2004   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrycak
...JJ may be in trouble because while good at KR's, he was at the bottom on PR's.
The return man has a vagabond life, anyway. Except for the very special guys (Dante Hall & ?), these guys bounce around from gig to gig. I think in general, the return men get too much credit for good stats, too much blame for the bad. What's consistant is the disipline of the unit itself and as the Texans return units grow a little older, they should have more consistant results (fewer penalties). Let's also not forget that the Texans have 3 guys in Europe among the leaders in kick & punt returns who will be hungry for a NFL job. The competition will be wide open, as it should be.
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Old 05-29-2004   #13
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Default BornOrange,

Can you show the stats on how many punt & kick returns were for 20+ yards & list them by player?

My thinking is that while a player's overall return yard average might be low, it doesn't reflect whether or not he was able to break the big 20+ yard punt returns.

For example, let's assume that a player has 10 opportunities to return the ball. If he returns 3 momentum turning punts for 30, 40, & 50 yards each, 3 for 5 yards each, 2 (losses) for -5 yards a piece, & fair catches 2, his return average would be 12.5 yards per return. Whereas, if he returns 10 punts for 15 yards each, his average is 15.0 yards per return.

While player #2 gets me a consistent 15 yards on every return & has a higher return average, player #1 has the play making ability to turn the game's momentum around.

So, the question becomes, which player do you place a higher value on?

While JJ doesn't have break away speed, he does have the ability to weave through traffic for some pretty big returns. He was a huge difference maker in the 1st half of last season. At least, until he took that cheap shot & got his bell rung.

If Duff can bring what JJ brings & has break away speed as well, then we'll have us a sweet returner. One other thought, why not have 2 big play returners back there at the same time?
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Old 05-29-2004   #14
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Default Return Man

The knock on J.J. Moses is not that he is not a good return man, it is that he is not a home run, or all the way back, type of threat.
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Old 05-29-2004   #15
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I like JJ as a return man. I think my wife likes him a lot more than me I suppose just cuz of his flashiness and hot-doggin'. In my book, anyone that gets run down by a LB from 40 yds. off is limited in his ability at best. I look for VDuff or KStarling to beat him out of a job though.
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Old 05-30-2004   #16
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I don't know how much of the problem is the return man and how much is the blocking (probably both), but the Texans definitely need more production from the punt return unit.
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Old 05-30-2004   #17
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If you look at how each did on punt returns in college, Moses and Duff had about the same number of returns for about the same number of yards. For a second position I wonder if Duff might not be better off trying running back, his hs position rather than CB, his college position.
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Old 06-01-2004   #18
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WHat about Kendrick Sterling who was also brought in to be a return specialist as well as compete for a WR spot?
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Old 06-02-2004   #19
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what about DD thats what we drafted him for or tony he did KR in collage or evan AJ he was a hell of a KR. evan dunta was tacking kicks. maybe we will have one of these guys start so we dont have to use a roster spot.
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Old 06-02-2004   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachJim
In my book, anyone that gets run down by a LB from 40 yds. off is limited in his ability at best. I look for VDuff or KStarling to beat him out of a job though.
Good comments. I think JJ is gone.
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