Da General's 1st Round Mock 2.0

[HoustonFrog]

Originally Posted by Lucky

I can't think of a past 1st round pick who has accomplished less in 4 seasons than Matthews. You can make a case that Matt Jones had zero experience for the job he was drafted for. But, Jones was a decent college QB. Matthews was a special teamer for 3 years prior to playing a season as a standup DE. He has minimal experience at LB.

Maybe Cushing has peaked. In that way, he reminds of former 1st round LBs Chad Greenway and Bobby Carpenter. But, how many 5th year Seniors are drafted on potential? There's nothing Matthews has done on the field that would warrant a 1st round pick.

In the Cushing thread I put the same thing,,,to be warned that he and Carpenter could be the same. I also agree on Cushing. To me you take a guy who played quality downs...no more "potential" picks.

As for Wes and your knowledge of General...he might know the landscape of the NFL and have his connections but I disagree completely on him knowing his stuff when it comes to Xs and Os. I think the game has passed him and most quotes concerning X's and O's are just passed down stories he repeats....such as the Texans not being able to blitz last year despite the last half of the season. JMO.

Duane Brown

[Goatcheese]

I'm not getting the Mathews man crush.

He played in 13 games and had just 56 tackles, and 4.5 sacks.

It doesn't seem to me that he really does anything well, just a lot of things ok. He has just decent straight line speed, and below average athleticism. He isn't very agile, and struggles in coverage. He lacks ball skills. People are calling him an overachiever. If 56 tackles is overachieving... yikes.

For him to utilize his strengths their max potential he will need to play as a 3-4 linebacker. Preferably in a scheme that doesn't ask him to cover anybody 1-on-1.

The only thing he really does well is try hard. That's just not good enough to be a first round pick.

[steelbtexan]

History says they will take an intelligent player that is physically gifted & has a high upside.

Okoye, D. Brown

Matthews & M. Johnson fit this criteria.

[was385]

I'm not a big fan but if he does end up in Houston, he'd better cut his hair because right now he looks like a woman.

[beerlover]

OK. I've had a week to do some research & make some professional contacts myself regarding Clay Matthews Jr. & while I'm not his biggest fan I fully understand the allure of his selection. But what upset me most was his generic projection based on measureables (don't always transfer to field) bloodlines (Bruce & Clay Sr. both great but does not make him a hall of fame lock, well unless he is voting I guess it does) & lack of breaking down actual playing history/game tape.

After the Texans signed left defensive end Antonio Smith in free agency, they can turn their attention to outside linebacker or defensive tackle in the first round. Mississippi's Peria Jerry would be a nice addition at tackle, but Matthews can do so many things that he's more valuable in this spot. He's been on the rise since the Senior Bowl. He was terrific at the combine, running 4.62 in the 40, including an incredible 1.49 for the first 10 yards. He's 6-3, 245 and can play the strong or weak side.

I love the Senior Bowl. Clay had an excellent week of practice (like Amobi Okoye did two years ago) but this was after only one decent season, nothing to suggest worthy of a top 15 pick. I bought in to Amobi but since realize its important not to fall in love with a player because you can reach, thus passing on more ready made productive football players. Actual game film it just too important to overlook, body of work & all factors should be considered first & foremost. So like Amobi Okoye I feel its a risky pick based more about potential & projection instead of where excatly in time his game is today which directly translates into success sooner rather than later for the Texans.

Value has really two different meanings here one he (McClain) is expounding value to the Texans because he projects to have the ability to play multiple positions. Do we really want our #1 pick to play special teams? seems risky (injury standpoint) & doesn't he need to FIND his position & stick there for a while to develop his game with solid on field production? Value to me in the draft is taking the best football player for your team NOW, instant starter (Mario Williams) who can help improve the most in a specific area, the NFL is now very much a specialist league so you need to select the most proven skilled player.

You also know some teams are gonna make these kind of mistakes in scouting picking ahead of the Texans thus dropping a premier talent Houston way, thats where value is -identifying that player who helps you improve the most over the competition.

Measureables vs. tape. They should be used only to verify results on the field not to project how much better athletically a prospect is or will become. Its a tool used to check off on a list of items used in scouting to grade prospects only not a be all end all solution.

In summary we should all expect better coverage (professional insight) from those paid who pontificate as draft insiders the merits of prospects to the masses

[Texecutioner]

Originally Posted by Goatcheese

I'm not getting the Mathews man crush.

He played in 13 games and had just 56 tackles, and 4.5 sacks.

It doesn't seem to me that he really does anything well, just a lot of things ok. He has just decent straight line speed, and below average athleticism. He isn't very agile, and struggles in coverage. He lacks ball skills. People are calling him an overachiever. If 56 tackles is overachieving... yikes.

For him to utilize his strengths their max potential he will need to play as a 3-4 linebacker. Preferably in a scheme that doesn't ask him to cover anybody 1-on-1.

The only thing he really does well is try hard. That's just not good enough to be a first round pick.

THank you Goat Cheese and Beer Lover.

I just don't get this Mathews thing either. Sure the guy has some potential, but he hasn't done anything to warrant a first round pick. I don't want any part of this guy in the first round. Absolutely not. If he was there in the 2nd which he won't be, then I like that pick a lot but that won't happen. We need a guy that could for sure help this defense out this season and for a long time. If we don't get a guy like that then the only other player on offense I would want in the first with the 15th is Wells but I doubt that we'll do that either so I've got no idea what Kubiak and Smith will be doing. Just no Mathews please.

Originally Posted by beerlover

Value to me in the draft is taking the best football player for your team NOW, instant starter who can help improve the most in a specific area, the NFL is now very much a specialist league so you need to select the most proven skilled player.

You also know some teams are gonna make these kind of mistakes in scouting picking ahead of the Texans thus dropping a premier talent Houston way, thats where value is -identifying that player who helps you improve the most over the competition.

Measureables vs. tape. They should be used only to verify results on the field not to project how much better athletically a prospect is or will become. Its a tool used to check off on a list of items used in scouting to grade prospects only not a be all end all solution.

To me, this sounds like an argument to have picked Bush over Williams...

I get what you're saying, but I just don't think it's that exact of a science.

[YoungTexanFan]

Originally Posted by Polo

To me, this sounds like an argument to have picked Bush over Williams...

I get what you're saying, but I just don't think it's that exact of a science.

To an extent. I think he is arguing for a more through examination of each potential prospect on an individual basis. Bush was used in tandem and was off the field in crucial situations. He also didn't run inside the tackles on a consistent basis. A general view of the tape could produce something like a highlight reel (what most fans look at) while completely covering his major flaws that have still held true.

In a similar fashion, Young (who should have been the best pick based on production on the field) had great highlights. However, instead of just watching the game, I think that Beerlover is suggesting that we take a closer look at the prospects current state of development vs. the norm. In Vince's case, he had very poor mechanics and a weak arm running from a shotgun offense to hide his flaws. Just by watching his tape, he was a winner who produced numbers. Examining it further, you could see he was a ways off as a prospect compared to an accepted norm. That's what I got out of that post mostly.

[threetoedpete]

Originally Posted by beerlover

OK. I've had a week to do some research & make some professional contacts myself regarding Clay Matthews Jr. & while I'm not his biggest fan I fully understand the allure of his selection.
Value has really two different meanings here one he (McClain) is expounding value to the Texans because he projects to have the ability to play multiple positions. Do we really want our #1 pick to play special teams? seems risky (injury standpoint) & doesn't he need to FIND his position & stick there for a while to develop his game with solid on field production? Value to me in the draft is taking the best football player for your team NOW, instant starter (Mario Williams) who can help improve the most in a specific area, the NFL is now very much a specialist league so you need to select the most proven skilled player.

You also know some teams are gonna make these kind of mistakes in scouting picking ahead of the Texans thus dropping a premier talent Houston way, thats where value is -identifying that player who helps you improve the most over the competition.

Under this prerequsite....if Detroit passes on curry we should be on the phone to the next four teams and make an offer. Curry, beyond doubt....would start and fill a need from day one.

There is no more gamble with Mathews than with anyone else available with the fifteen. Too short corners....tweener cb-safteys, dupicate Dt's whom we already have on the roster.

On the one hand we forgive the warts on these guys ...but Mathews posts the kind of numbers which indicate he can run with Chriss Johnson...... can tackle MJD in the open feild....has shown he can bull rush larger o-lineman....and we're going to pass becauses everyone and his brother with superior tallent is offered at USC. Seems to me we'd give him a thumbs up for being tenatious enough to wade through the supeior guys who's hype couldn't hold him down. And lock down a top twenty '09 spot. I'm going with what my eyes have seen this off season. this guy is the round peg for our round hole. I think he gives us a shot at an additional fifteen turnovers in '09....that's what I'm buying. I don't believe dilles or adibi will hold him out of the starting lineup...out of camp. If you can run and tackle and drop....you can play linebacker.

[BigBull17]

Originally Posted by threetoedpete

Under this prerequsite....if Detroit passes on curry we should be on the phone to the next four teams and make and offer. Curry, beyond doubt....would start and fill a need from day one.

To trade up into the top 5 is expensive, but if Curry fell to around 8-12, make the call. If the 4 LT's, 2-3 WR's, and Wells and Moreno along with Stafford and Sanchez go, things look great for us.

[Goatcheese]

There is no more gamble with Mathews than with anyone else available with the fifteen. Too short corners....tweener cb-safteys, dupicate Dt's whom we already have on the roster.

We've seen A.Smith and M.Jenkins start and play exceptionally well for several years now. That's a lot less risk than Mathews 1 year as a starter where he may have overachieved to rack up an eye popping 56 tackles in 13 games against a bunch of guys who will never play a down in the NFL.

The guy everybody wants to replace had 66 tackles in 8 games against NFL talent.

Originally Posted by threetoedpete

On the one hand we forgive the warts on these guys ...but Mathews posts the kind of numbers which indicate he can run with Chriss Johnson......

4.7 can run with 4.2?

I think he gives us a shot at an additional fifteen turnovers in '09

Is that you Bruce?

[Kaiser Toro]

Originally Posted by Goatcheese

We've seen A.Smith and M.Jenkins start and play exceptionally well for several years now. That's a lot less risk than Mathews 1 year as a starter where he may have overachieved to rack up an eye popping 56 tackles in 13 games against a bunch of guys who will never play a down in the NFL.

The guy everybody wants to replace had 66 tackles in 8 games against NFL talent.



4.7 can run with 4.2?



Is that you Bruce?

I would imagine he is talking about the first ten yard split.

[steelbtexan]

If I had to make the choice I would take Barwin & his 4.47 40 over Matthews.

I like Matthews alot though & wouldn't be disappointed if he was the choice @ 15.

If Orakpo or Curry fell to within reach (like 3 or 4 slots ahead of us) then I'd seriously think about trading up to get one of them. I think Orakpo may be a more realistic possibility.

[bah007]

Originally Posted by Goatcheese

We've seen A.Smith and M.Jenkins start and play exceptionally well for several years now. That's a lot less risk than Mathews 1 year as a starter where he may have overachieved to rack up an eye popping 56 tackles in 13 games against a bunch of guys who will never play a down in the NFL.

The guy everybody wants to replace had 66 tackles in 8 games against NFL talent.



4.7 can run with 4.2?



Is that you Bruce?

Collectively, the Pac 10 doesn't play defense really well, but they put a lot of offensive players in the NFL.

Mathews had 57 tackles, 9 TFL, 4.5 sacks, and 2 FF.

Cushing had 73 tackles, 10.5 TFL, 3 sacks, and 1 FF.

Maualuga had 79 tackles, 2.5 TFL, 0 sacks, and 0 FF.

Maiava had 66 tackles, 7.5 TFL, 0 sacks, and 0 FF.

You want to use numbers? Look at the numbers and tell me that Mathews was less productive than Maualuga. And keep in mind that Big Rey had no responsibilities on defense. His only job was to hit people.

Taylor Mays was considered a top 10 pick and all he had was 53 tackles, 2 TFL, 9 PBU, 0 sacks, 0 FF, and O INTs.

USC was a great defense this past year because they played great as a unit. They have a lot of great players and they all did their jobs. And it's hard to rack up a bunch of tackles on your stat sheet if you force the offense to go 3 and out every drive.

[BigBull17]

Originally Posted by Polo

If Orakpo or Curry fell to within reach (like 3 or 4 slots ahead of us) then I'd seriously think about trading up to get one of them. I think Orakpo may be a more realistic possibility.

The problem with Orakpo is he is A) a tweener, and B) would be situational for a year or two. If he was at 15, sure, but Iwouldnt trade iup on a gamble. Curry is much more of a sure thing at OLB.

[nunusguy]

Originally Posted by steelbtexan

If I had to make the choice I would take Barwin & his 4.47 40 over Matthews.

I like Matthews alot though & wouldn't be disappointed if he was the choice @ 15.

"One of the Bearcats’ top prospects this year is DE/TE Connor Barwin (6-3 7/8, 251 pounds). He’s a unique prospect in that he played tight end two years ago before switching to defensive end last season, where he earned an all-conference nod. He ran identical times of 4.50 in two tries in the 40-yard dash, and put up 23 reps of 225 pounds on the bench press. Barwin otherwise stood on his numbers from the combine."
http://blogs.nfl.com/category/pro-days/
**************************************************
I dunno, but I might be with you on this one steelbtexan ?
And people say Matthews is versitle, but Barwin is infinitely more versitle. He can play on "both sides of the ball", not just multiple positions.
And we still need another edge rusher besides Mario, FA pickup Antonio Smith is no such thing. All reports indicate he won't even be playing on the edge in passing situations ?

[Goatcheese]

Originally Posted by bah007

Collectively, the Pac 10 doesn't play defense really well, but they put a lot of offensive players in the NFL.

Mathews had 57 tackles, 9 TFL, 4.5 sacks, and 2 FF.

Cushing had 73 tackles, 10.5 TFL, 3 sacks, and 1 FF.

Maualuga had 79 tackles, 2.5 TFL, 0 sacks, and 0 FF.

Maiava had 66 tackles, 7.5 TFL, 0 sacks, and 0 FF.

You want to use numbers?

Yeah.

Look at the numbers and tell me that Mathews was less productive than Maualuga. And keep in mind that Big Rey had no responsibilities on defense. His only job was to hit people.

Mathews was less productive than Maualuga. 29 solo tackles vs 51. He even had the benefit of teams having to focus on all the superior players around him, and still couldn't keep up.

Taylor Mays was considered a top 10 pick and all he had was 53 tackles, 2 TFL, 9 PBU, 0 sacks, 0 FF, and O INTs.

Who thought of Mays as a top 10 pick? Some experts said he could be if he went back to school and showed he could be a star, but I've never heard anybody say he was going to be a high pick this year. His size and athleticism turns heads, but he has a long way to go before being taken in the top 20, much less top 10.

USC was a great defense this past year because they played great as a unit. They have a lot of great players and they all did their jobs. And it's hard to rack up a bunch of tackles on your stat sheet if you force the offense to go 3 and out every drive.

Funny how the Ravens and Stealers are great defenses, but still have guys near the top of the league in statistics pretty much every year.

I'd rather take Pile Jumper from Ohio St. than Mathews.

Mathews' 1 year of experience isn't really even as a traditional 4-3 OLB. USC runs a base 4-3 under, which puts the WILL linebacker over the A gap like a 3-4 BULL ILB.

[El Tejano]

Originally Posted by Texecutioner

We need a guy that could for sure help this defense out this season and for a long time. If we don't get a guy like that then the only other player on offense I would want in the first with the 15th is Wells but I doubt that we'll do that either so I've got no idea what Kubiak and Smith will be doing. Just no Mathews please.

I want a guy like Knoshawn Moreno.