"Texans players say they had illegal contract drills at 2008 mini-camp"

[Vinny]

Originally Posted by edo783

It's interesting that when Kubes came here, there was a fair amount of conversation/print about how much less physical his practice sessions were than those run by Capers. I looked at the video and frankly I thought it was pretty mild from a contact standpoint thing. IMO, the no contact rule was meant to not have tackling going on. Pushing and shoving should be OK. I'm not sure how the heck you could practice football without at least pushing and shoving going on. I suppose you could just walk through stuff, but I don't see that accomplishing much.

I've heard guys were getting pancaked in some of the drills and if you are a 300 pounder that isn't something to take lightly at any time. The team broke the rules (the rules that are set in place to protect the players) and 3 guys had season ending injuries in those drills....I bet the team doesn't get off lightly.

[Second Honeymoon]

if we lose anything more than a 5th Round draft pick, i may just lose it.

one thing this does is show just how stubborn Gibbs is. dude needs to realize that he doesnt make the rules and that sometimes you have to do stuff you dont want to do. his 'us against the world' style of coaching is great when it just an act, but when the world is against you, you may have to grow up and accept things the way they are.

its obvious Gibbs doesnt like the rules and he just needs to realize that it doesnt matter what he thinks. keeping his men and himself away from the media is one thing, but being outright indignant towards the way things are supposed to be done is irresponsible and could hurt our team now.

hopefully it will be just $$ and maybe a game suspension for the coaching staff involved. we cant afford to waste early draft picks because our leadership thought they were above the law.

[Vinny]

Originally Posted by Second Honeymoon

if we lose anything more than a 5th Round draft pick, i may just lose it.

one thing this does is show just how stubborn Gibbs is. dude needs to realize that he doesnt make the rules and that sometimes you have to do stuff you dont want to do. his 'us against the world' style of coaching is great when it just an act, but when the world is against you, you may have to grow up and accept things the way they are.

its obvious Gibbs doesnt like the rules and he just needs to realize that it doesnt matter what he thinks. keeping his men and himself away from the media is one thing, but being outright indignant towards the way things are supposed to be done is irresponsible and could hurt our team now.

hopefully it will be just $$ and maybe a game suspension for the coaching staff involved. we cant afford to waste early draft picks because our leadership thought they were above the law.

I see two things...how stubborn Gibbs is and how Kubiak doesn't make great decisions at times. These are ongoing themes.

[Runner]

Originally Posted by InterestedJeff

Going half speed is what gets people hurt. It's either go all out or dont go at all.

Originally Posted by Ole Miss Texan

A truer statement could not be made.

I'm at a real keyboard for a change and Peek isn't here anymore, so I'll address this with a specific example. There are many times less than full speed workouts are very beneficial - the half speed workouts help player development.

Antwaan Peek always looked good during the pre-season, but somehow his regular season never panned out. He would look very, very fast in camp, blowing by linemen at will. He was always on the news highlights for the day. Very impressive - but then it never seemed to carry over into the regular season.

I asked about this one time, saying Peek really looked good and this would be his breakout year. I was told that appearances are deceiving after having to put up with a rolling of the eyes. Apparently in the drills that were making the highlights, the o-linemen were going half-speed, working on technique. First Step-Balance-Hands First Step-Balance-Hands stuff. Peek was going full speed on his speed rush - the only move he ever had - and looking very good against guys that weren't particularly trying to block him. In the end, the o-linemen were getting better, and Peek was remaining a one trick pony. If Peek had also gone at half speed and tried to learn something else he may have improved too. Maybe he should have tried to learn how to get under a lineman's pads and develop a bull rush; anything to give him more weapons. As it was, I was told Peek would have been easy to block during drills had the lineman cared to - they didn't have to read and react to him (which is a d-lineman's major advantage). They could have just blocked the speed rush every time. Pretty simple.

Trying to point out that Peek wasn't as good as he was showing and the o-line wasn't as bad as they looked didn't get much support either, because people "know what they saw". Sometimes there is a lot more to knowing than seeing.

[Runner]

Originally Posted by Vinny

I see two things...how stubborn Gibbs is and how Kubiak doesn't make great decisions at times. These are ongoing themes.

I think it is part of the corporate culture. The coaches want to show what tough guys they are, they think it makes the players tough guys, and to hell with the rule.

Given the Texans record over the years, maybe it is time to lose the one-on-one no pads contact drills and use that time to teach techniques and team play. You know - use that time to "gel" rather than lose a few games during the start of the season as the players learn to play together.

[steelbtexan]

Originally Posted by TimeKiller

I'd almost be willing to bet money it's a little from column A, a little from column B. You can take it how you want it but Fred Weary laid it out pretty well that guys start escalating their efforts when they get into the practices.

Maybe you should look somewhere besides these boards? ESPN projected the Texans pretty negatively in the report. My defense of the Texans isn't blind loyalty though, it's more just not siding with Stevenson.

It is what it is, surely the Texans are at fault for breaking the rules but I find Stevenson's role in this troubling. He's in it for money, his 15 minutes and hoping his face on ESPN gives him a shot elsewhere...which he probably won't get. It seems like he knew he was nothing in the NFL, so he's getting his while he can no matter the sacrifice. People like that are hard to support, for me anyway.

Spot On

Stevenson knew he wasn't going to make the Texans roster or any other NFL teams roster. The reason the Texans put him on IR was because they couldn't come to an injury settlement with him. Stevenson is looking to make the most money he can being a marginal player. ESPN paid for this story & he thinks he can make more money with a lawsuit tha an injury settlement.

Every ex-NFL player I've heard talk about this says the Texans practices in OTA's are in line with the other 31 NFL teams. I think it's interesting that the NFLPA decided not to represent Stevenson in this case.

Being a Texan fan I would gladly give up a 4th rd. draft choice every year if we see as much improvement in the OL every year as we've seen this year.

[Dan B.]

I'm betting even if he fully recovers Stevenson is going to have a very tough time getting another job. No team is going to take someone on who sued their former team and ran to ESPN to humiliate them publicly, especially if this practice is as common as alleged. It's not like he's an all star after all.

[Jackie Chiles]

If its any consolation the latest piece at the chronicle states that the investigation may take months.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...t/6251101.html

If we are going to lose a 4 my guess would be it wouldn't come from this years draft. It will still suck but I feel like this is such a pivotal off-season for the team that we need everything we can get to get over that hump. If we wind up winning 10 games this year I think the blow of losing a 4 in the following draft would be softened just a bit. Still going to suck but at least its not a 1 like NE had to part with. If we wind up posting another 8-8 or worse and lose that pick I will be more disappointed because it would mean that our needs are still not being adequately filled.

[Wolf]

At least Texans coach Gary Kubiak had the good sense to call off the illegal drills after a third player suffered a season-ending injury.

You never know what these coaches are thinking. Kubiak might have let eight or nine guys get carted off before it occurred to him that maybe this wasn't his best idea.

Just think how bad the Texans would have been last season if they hadn't cheated. There's your silver lining.

Every once in a while, something happens that peels back the shroud of secrecy on the dark side of the NFL.

That's the side that deals with injury grievances and teams forcing players back onto the field just so they can cut them.

That's what ESPN has done with an Outside The Lines report on the Texans. It's a story that might not have seen the light of day if a player named Dan Stevenson hadn't taken a video device into a meeting room and recorded the illegal practices.

The Texans originally denied his filing, saying, in part, no such drills took place. Then he produced the video.

The video shows players doing full-speed blocking drills without pads. First, the drills are illegal. Second, they're dumb.

There's a reason the NFL's labor agreement allows contact drills only at certain times of the season.

Otherwise, coaches would have players banging on each other 10 months a year. Maybe Kubiak and Alex Gibbs thought they'd toughen up the boys in preparation for camp.

There's also a reason players wear something called "pads." They provide protection.

"Wearing pads puts it out in the open that you're running illegal practices," one player said. "If you're not wearing pads, you can say, ?Well, it got out of hand.'?"

Offseason minicamps and practices are supposed to be more mental work than physical. Six weeks of training camp is plenty of time for blocking and tackling, so why do it in May?

"Because coaches think the Patriots are doing it, and if the Patriots are doing it, then the Giants probably are doing it," the player said. "If the Giants are doing it, then you know the Colts and Titans are doing it. Word gets around, players are afraid to speak up, and coaches start thinking they have to do it."

Had the Texans done it before 2008?

Did they force Fred Weary back on the field before he was healthy so they could cut him and save his salary?

I know it can happen when a team is making a push for the playoffs and the guy at 80% is better than the 2nd teamer at 100% , but my initial reaction, was this is about the dumbest thing you could put as speculation.why the hell would a team purposely put a player in that is injured only to be injured again so you can save his salary?
I almost want to quote him on his blog and blast away. really? Fred Weary? on a zone blocking scheme where movement is critical to an OL?


I should consider the source on that.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/9...40813162&ATT=5

[GP]

Originally Posted by Jackie Chiles

If its any consolation the latest piece at the chronicle states that the investigation may take months.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...t/6251101.html

If we are going to lose a 4 my guess would be it wouldn't come from this years draft. It will still suck but I feel like this is such a pivotal off-season for the team that we need everything we can get to get over that hump. If we wind up winning 10 games this year I think the blow of losing a 4 in the following draft would be softened just a bit. Still going to suck but at least its not a 1 like NE had to part with. If we wind up posting another 8-8 or worse and lose that pick I will be more disappointed because it would mean that our needs are still not being adequately filled.

To me, losing ANY draft picks is unacceptable. We're not NE...we can't afford to lose any draft picks at all.

Coming off of two straight years with no Round 2 pick is like eating real food again after going two years on army rations. Losing a 4th, at this point, would be horrible.

For the powers-that-be to have decided to go against clear-cut league rules, having CONTACT when there should be none..well, that was THE definition of stupidity. There's really no other description for it.

[GP]

It's on Outside The Lines right now...I am going to transcribe what I can:

Stevenson says Rick Smith yelled at him, told him he had no integrity: "I felt like he really attacked my character."

(I'll post in spurts, then piece it all together in one single post when it's finished.)

[GP]

Stevenson: "There's a reason, you know, that drills like these are prohibited in the off-season. Football is dangerous enough as it is, there's high risk of injury. And when you're not wearing the proper pads, you're not protected."

Narrator: During a minicamp practice that the public never saw, offensive lineman Dan Stevenson, trying to make his third team in three years, suffered a shoulder injury that he says might have ended his NFL career. Stevenson filed a grievance against the Texans, saying he was hurt during "Prohibited full contact drills during an offseason minicamp with reckless disregard for the players' health." The NFL management counsel rejected his grievance, citing, among other factors, that the "Texans deny players were required to participate in drills which are explicitly prohibited."

Narrator to Stevenson, as they watch the video clips of the drills: Why did you think to tape this?

Stevenson: I just wanted to see it. I kinda' wanted to see for myself.

Narrator: Why did you tape it?

Stevenson: I think that they can obviously no longer deny that this drill ever happened.

Narrator as the clip turns from showing the drills, to then showing Stevenson's video footage of a Texans computer in Texans offices: What does this tell us?

Stevenson: This is how they break down film.

Narrator: Stevenson took a video camera into the Texans meeting room, and recorded the team's video of the practice off a computer terminal.

[GP]

Narrator to Stevenson: It seems like you had more in mind than just to shoot the drill, that you knew you had to establish when it was, as much information as you could get.

Stevenson: Without a doubt.

Narrator, as TV shows the Texans' computer monitor playing the archived drill: This is May 9th, 2008...The Texans were prohibited from holding contact drills.

Narrator to Stevenson: What are we seeing here?

Stevenson: Right here you see that it's obviously a one-on-one pass rush drill at the minicamp.

Narrator to TV audience (as the NFL document is shown on screen): Article 36, section 4 of the CBA reads "There will be no contact work (e.g. "live" blocking,...)" According to Stevenson, and several other eye witnesses, Kris Brown, the team's union representative, and Mark Breuner, a member of the union's executive committee, confronted head coach Gary Kubiak and told him that the drill was prohibited. Both Breuner and Brown declined to speak to Outside The Lines. (holy crap balls!)

[GP]

Stevenson to Narrator: So, uh, the players weren't happy. The player reps went to the coaches and said, you know, one-on-one, it's strictly prohibited. We can show you in the CBA where it says, you know, any type of live blocking drill, i.e. one-on-one pass rush is strictly prohibited. When they came back to us, the coaching staff pretty much said they were going to do what they wanted to do and run practices as they see fit.

Narrator to Stevenson: What kind of pads are you guys wearing?

Stevenson: Just helmets.

Narrator to Stevenson: During that first day, how intense did it get?

Stevenson: Ummm...it got very intense. Players were, like I said, trying to make the team, you know, and people were getting put on their backs. People were getting knocked over. Guys are getting pancaked. It's all out.

Jordan Black to the camera: Oh, it's full speed. I mean, you're there doing the drills, trying to make an impression on the coach.

Narrator to TV audience (as clip is shown): Lineman Jordan Black actually ripped a teammate's helmet off (vs. #96, Cochran I think).

Black: Pride is a big thing. Nobody wants to, uh, get beat by another player. You just always want to win out there.

Stevenson: It's what you need to do to survive. There's no gettin' around it. If the coach asks you to do something, umm, what are you going to do but go and try to show that you're good enough to make the 53-man roster?

[infantrycak]

Bruener is retired now. The fact that he wouldn't speak to them tells you his position even if this was technically against the rules. My bet is Brown and Bruener went to Kubiak even though they didn't want to because Stevenson or someone else complained. Here is where facts get lost in translation. Those two are gamers and may very well have gone to Kubiak with a "hey coach we got this complaint so we are doing our job and passing it along but keep it up, we like where the team is going."

I can't believe the people I see railing against the Texans in this thread. This goes on at every NFL team. The Texans were unlucky enough to have some fringe player narc on them to help his own civil lawsuit.

[Jackie Chiles]

Originally Posted by GP

Narrator: During a minicamp practice that the public never saw, offensive lineman Dan Stevenson, trying to make his third team in three years, suffered a shoulder injury that he says might have ended his NFL career. Stevenson filed a grievance against the Texans, saying he was hurt during "Prohibited full contact drills during an offseason minicamp with reckless disregard for the players' health." The NFL management counsel rejected his grievance, citing, among other factors, that the "Texans deny players were required to participate in drills which are explicitly prohibited."

I thought these were all open practices, am I missing something?

Just got done watching the piece, I think the part of this whole thing that bugs me is how we come across as cheap and sneaky in regard to compensating the players that were injured. The drills are not as big a deal. I do wish they could have found someone to give the Texan's side of the story but I can see how it must have been impossible to get anyone from the organization to speak about this matter. Ross Tucker, a former NFL O-linemen, came on and played that role ineffectively. No mention of Fred Weary being upset at how his affidavit was being used in this story or how he mentions he thought the drills were in mini camp and not OTAs.

[GP]

Narrator to TV audience: The next day at practice, coaches ran the same drill at the same speed. Stevenson's first drill was his last. (clip is shown of Stevenson blocking #67)

Stevenson to narrator, as they watch the clip: I'm blocking him, blocking him, and bam! my arm goes.

Narrator to Stevenson: It's why you pulled back like that? (He says "Yes") Did you know right away? (He answers "Instantly")

Narrator to TV audience: Jordan Black was one of two other players who suffered season-ending injuries that day.

Black: I was going to punch the defensive end, he was trying to get around the outside of me, and he went to slap my arm off--so he could get that corner--as soon as he slapped my arm it just rotated, twisted, and my arm came out of its socket.

Narrator to TV audience (showing Jordan Black's "Notice of Termination" papers sent to him on June 9, 2008): A month after the incident, the Texans terminated Black. He says the team argued that he had NOT suffered an injury during the workout, and he was forced to pay for his own surgery. In September (showing the actual letter from Texans to Black) the Texans agreed to reimburse his medical bills. But even as they did, they noted that the payment "...does not constitute evidence nor any admission of the club's liability..."

[Honoring Earl 34]

Originally Posted by infantrycak

Bruener is retired now. The fact that he wouldn't speak to them tells you his position even if this was technically against the rules. My bet is Brown and Bruener went to Kubiak even though they didn't want to because Stevenson or someone else complained. Here is where facts get lost in translation. Those two are gamers and may very well have gone to Kubiak with a "hey coach we got this complaint so we are doing our job and passing it along but keep it up, we like where the team is going."

I can't believe the people I see railing against the Texans in this thread. This goes on at every NFL team. The Texans were unlucky enough to have some fringe player narc on them to help his own civil lawsuit.

The funny thing is both guys were from Notre Dame . I wonder how well they knew each other .... hmmmm .

[GP]

Originally Posted by infantrycak

Bruener is retired now. The fact that he wouldn't speak to them tells you his position even if this was technically against the rules. My bet is Brown and Bruener went to Kubiak even though they didn't want to because Stevenson or someone else complained. Here is where facts get lost in translation. Those two are gamers and may very well have gone to Kubiak with a "hey coach we got this complaint so we are doing our job and passing it along but keep it up, we like where the team is going."

I can't believe the people I see railing against the Texans in this thread. This goes on at every NFL team. The Texans were unlucky enough to have some fringe player narc on them to help his own civil lawsuit.

Well, I guess that's YOUR opinion. I find it curious that you are essentially speculating when you theorize how it was that Kris Brown and Breuner went to Kubiak. You always rail on those who speculate, and here you are doing that very thing.

It's obvious you think those guys are extorting the Texans, pissed off about not making the team, looking for a payday, etc.

I think they did an admirable thing. They said "Here's the rules, you're not supposed to be doing that." If anything, this is going to stop this nonsense and it's going to save future players' chances of making a team.

Anybody who goes this far to support "the team" at the expense of individuals who make up "the team" is puzzling. If it was a number 1 draft pick who had this happened to him, a pro-bowl guy, we'd all be sending letters and emails to the Texans in disgust of what happened.

The Texans come across exactly how they should: They broke the rules, guys got hurt during drills that should not have happened. The responsibility is upon the coaching and management staff. Period. This is not how a man with integrity should lead those whom he in-turn asks to live a life of integrity. This is inexcusable. Our team SHOULD be punished. Any teams doing this should be punished. Period.

[Honoring Earl 34]

Originally Posted by GP

Well, I guess that's YOUR opinion. I find it curious that you are essentially speculating when you theorize how it was that Kris Brown and Breuner went to Kubiak. You always rail on those who speculate, and here you are doing that very thing.

It's obvious you think those guys are extorting the Texans, pissed off about not making the team, looking for a payday, etc.

I think they did an admirable thing. They said "Here's the rules, you're not supposed to be doing that." If anything, this is going to stop this nonsense and it's going to save future players' chances of making a team.

Anybody who goes this far to support "the team" at the expense of individuals who make up "the team" is puzzling. If it was a number 1 draft pick who had this happened to him, a pro-bowl guy, we'd all be sending letters and emails to the Texans in disgust of what happened.

The Texans come across exactly how they should: They broke the rules, guys got hurt during drills that should not have happened. The responsibility is upon the coaching and management staff. Period. This is not how a man with integrity should lead those whom he in-turn asks to live a life of integrity. This is inexcusable. Our team SHOULD be punished. Any teams doing this should be punished. Period.

This is the same thing as colleges cheating in recruiting . It's a mindset that if you aren't cheating you ain't trying or nice guys finish last . You guys who are so appalled I guess never paracticed in the gymm in July in highschool .

The point is the NFL or NCAA will not come down on any off it because it weakens the product . Like Cak said ... the Texans had a couple of guys who told ... even taped it . It's fuuny that nobody else has come forward and Weary says Stephenson duped him .