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Old 01-27-2009   #1
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Default Kicking around thoughts

about the Texans draft, free agents and the current roster.

Some of you are pushing for replacements for Mike Briesel RG and Chris Myers C and I understand your points. However, this was the first year the starting 5 played together all last season and I think Gibbs will urge even more from the line this season. My understanding is Briesel is much liked by Kubes. I think Myers will be the starter and his contract helps him stay there (can anyone say Morlon Greenwood or Anthony Weaver?) I do not see a guard being selected before the 5th. May see some competition signed in free agency.

Alex Gibbs? Has anyone seen his contract? I can't find anything as to length but thought it was a one year. I know his son was signed to coach Dbacks and that should keep daddy around for a while.

Most agree the 3 major areas of weakness 1) turnovers. If we could get some fruit thrown in we could all gain weight. 2) QB sacks and hurries required to help our DBs. A boot scooting DE opposite Mario makes everyone happy. I have been following Robert Ayers but since he manhandled Oher in practice and did so well in the seniors game (best defensive player of game) his stock is a "bullet". http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings...2009&genpos=DE I had him in 4th round but that hope seems to fade. I've seen some mocks with him as a 2nd round. I have moved him currently to 3rd round.

3) stop the dadburn RB opponent! Some say Bill Kollar wants lighter, fast DTs but how has that worked for us last 2 years? Does not matter how good Mario is if the QB just hands off for 4-6 yards. I have been pushing Raji@ 15 or Ron Brace in a later round. If we can trade down and get a 2nd, I like Shonn Green PWR back and Brace in 2nd round.

Having said the above I have two options involving no trades:

Option1 First Round BJ Raji NT Option2 Vontae Davis CB
Second Michael Johnson DE Shonn Green RB
Third Gartrell Johnson RB Robert Ayers DE
Fourth Rashad Johnson FS Best ILB available

Option 2 I did not go with NT as I think Texans will stay with DTs we have. I like Brace in 2nd with a power back in 4th but go back and forth as hard to pass on Green if there. Heck, I seem to change my choices around almost daily.

Saving best for last and what will stir up the most dissention; free agent CB Asomugha. I tell Oakland I am going hard for their guy and they will have to match with big bucks. Our #15 would look good to them but next year's 1st will not compensate well for losing a shut down corner. So.. we tell Oakland to establish Aso as a Franchise Exclusive player. We then offer a trade of Jacques Reeves, Andre Davis (who? Showed his abilities when AJ was out and then Schaub never threw to him in 2008. We move D. Anderson up. Not that he will get any more receptions)Jacoby Jones and next year's 1st. Much better for Oakland than two firsts. Oakland saves the cash and gets a steady CB with 4 INTS, a pretty decent WR, and then JJ offers excitement that Raider fans will enjoy + a first round pick in the 25 range.

We sign ASO a shut down CB to a $50 million 5 year with $20 m bonus.

Let the screams begin.
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Old 01-27-2009   #2
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Default Re: Kicking around thoughts

We are unable to score in the red zone with a top 3 offense statistically, we need to get better at RG, C and LG. I cannot imagine us not spending a draft pick in the first four rounds on one of those positions, preferably a player that can play all three.
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Old 01-27-2009   #3
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Default Re: Kicking around thoughts

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Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro View Post
We are unable to score in the red zone with a top 3 offense statistically, we need to get better at RG, C and LG. I cannot imagine us not spending a draft pick in the first four rounds on one of those positions, preferably a player that can play all three.
I think the fact that Meyers and Briesel have really only started for one season and some change a piece, I'm sure you're going to find that the coaches are willing to give these guys some time to develop.

I don't see us taking any offensive linemen who are known quantities, and I don't see us taking any of them before the end of the draft. I think the one offensive player we are looking at taking before we get to the no-name rounds is probably going to be an RB.
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Old 01-27-2009   #4
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Default Re: Kicking around thoughts

It's hard for me to imagine us taking an offensive player in the 1st round. Michael Oher's the one guy I could see going #1 overall or slipping to our pick, that we might consider. Even if this were to happen, we could possibly have a higher rated defensive player. So I'm assuming our 1st rd pick goes to a 'D' player. Depends where the talent is with our pick in the 2nd round but it could be at DB. If we go DL or LB in the first, I could see a DB in the 2nd. For the 3rd, we could see DB or maybe a pass rushing DE available depending on what we do in the 1st.

I see us looking to add another RB in the draft, but I doubt we take him any before the 3rd round. I'd imagine it would be a 4th rd pick or later on a guy to help out slaton a little.

As for Asomugha, I'm a big fan of getting him. I'd like to see him refranchised by oakland this year though. That way we can add some more talent on this defense so next offseason, he would be more interested in coming here and would just top off our D.
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Old 01-27-2009   #5
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Default Re: Kicking around thoughts

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Originally Posted by b0ng View Post
I think the fact that Meyers and Briesel have really only started for one season and some change a piece, I'm sure you're going to find that the coaches are willing to give these guys some time to develop.

I don't see us taking any offensive linemen who are known quantities, and I don't see us taking any of them before the end of the draft. I think the one offensive player we are looking at taking before we get to the no-name rounds is probably going to be an RB.
Personally I think they had a great year for them, but do not see them helping our woes in the RZ in the future. For us not to draft a player at one of those positions in order to bring in competition and to develop under Gibbs would be an awfully narrow minded outlook.

Gibbs has what, three to four years left at best? I would love for some young lineman to learn the trade under him.
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Old 01-28-2009   #6
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Default Re: Kicking around thoughts

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Originally Posted by Ole Miss Texan View Post
It's hard for me to imagine us taking an offensive player in the 1st round. Michael Oher's the one guy I could see going #1 overall or slipping to our pick, that we might consider. Even if this were to happen, we could possibly have a higher rated defensive player. So I'm assuming our 1st rd pick goes to a 'D' player. Depends where the talent is with our pick in the 2nd round but it could be at DB. If we go DL or LB in the first, I could see a DB in the 2nd. For the 3rd, we could see DB or maybe a pass rushing DE available depending on what we do in the 1st.

I see us looking to add another RB in the draft, but I doubt we take him any before the 3rd round. I'd imagine it would be a 4th rd pick or later on a guy to help out slaton a little.

As for Asomugha, I'm a big fan of getting him. I'd like to see him refranchised by oakland this year though. That way we can add some more talent on this defense so next offseason, he would be more interested in coming here and would just top off our D.
Unless Oakland franchises as "exclusive" other teams can negotiate. As a "non-exclusive" franchised player, if he signs with another team, Oakland then gets two 1st round selections. ASO is worth our #15 and next season's first (much lower, I expect) but we need too much to give that up. That is why I have the trade scenario posted.
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Old 01-28-2009   #7
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Default Re: Kicking around thoughts

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Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro View Post
We are unable to score in the red zone with a top 3 offense statistically, we need to get better at RG, C and LG. I cannot imagine us not spending a draft pick in the first four rounds on one of those positions, preferably a player that can play all three.
Here is why I disagree with you, QB keeps ball and scores on ground. Our QBs are 224 and 234lbs and the same line blocks for them. Seems like a RB with similar bulk could get it in.
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Old 01-28-2009   #8
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Default Re: Kicking around thoughts

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Personally I think they had a great year for them, but do not see them helping our woes in the RZ in the future. For us not to draft a player at one of those positions in order to bring in competition and to develop under Gibbs would be an awfully narrow minded outlook.

Gibbs has what, three to four years left at best? I would love for some young lineman to learn the trade under him.
Do you have any idea on how long Gibbs is under contract? I think it is basically year to year as long as he wants to coach.
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Old 01-28-2009   #9
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Default Re: Kicking around thoughts

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3) stop the dadburn RB opponent! Some say Bill Kollar wants lighter, fast DTs but how has that worked for us last 2 years?
Kollar was there when the Bills traded for Stroud....Stroud is a 6'6" beast of a man and had a pretty good year under him last season. Stroud can move his feet very well for a man of his size though.
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Old 01-28-2009   #10
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Default Re: Kicking around thoughts

Texans must always be on the lookout to upgrade physical nature of both lines, to dominant & impose their will without fear of failure
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Old 01-28-2009   #11
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Default Re: Kicking around thoughts

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Originally Posted by badboy View Post
about the Texans draft, free agents and the current roster.

Some of you are pushing for replacements for Mike Briesel RG and Chris Myers C and I understand your points. However, this was the first year the starting 5 played together all last season and I think Gibbs will urge even more from the line this season. My understanding is Briesel is much liked by Kubes. I think Myers will be the starter and his contract helps him stay there (can anyone say Morlon Greenwood or Anthony Weaver?) I do not see a guard being selected before the 5th. May see some competition signed in free agency.

Alex Gibbs? Has anyone seen his contract? I can't find anything as to length but thought it was a one year. I know his son was signed to coach Dbacks and that should keep daddy around for a while.

Most agree the 3 major areas of weakness 1) turnovers. If we could get some fruit thrown in we could all gain weight. 2) QB sacks and hurries required to help our DBs. A boot scooting DE opposite Mario makes everyone happy. I have been following Robert Ayers but since he manhandled Oher in practice and did so well in the seniors game (best defensive player of game) his stock is a "bullet". http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings...2009&genpos=DE I had him in 4th round but that hope seems to fade. I've seen some mocks with him as a 2nd round. I have moved him currently to 3rd round.

3) stop the dadburn RB opponent! Some say Bill Kollar wants lighter, fast DTs but how has that worked for us last 2 years? Does not matter how good Mario is if the QB just hands off for 4-6 yards. I have been pushing Raji@ 15 or Ron Brace in a later round. If we can trade down and get a 2nd, I like Shonn Green PWR back and Brace in 2nd round.

Having said the above I have two options involving no trades:

Option1 First Round BJ Raji NT Option2 Vontae Davis CB
Second Michael Johnson DE Shonn Green RB
Third Gartrell Johnson RB Robert Ayers DE
Fourth Rashad Johnson FS Best ILB available

Option 2 I did not go with NT as I think Texans will stay with DTs we have. I like Brace in 2nd with a power back in 4th but go back and forth as hard to pass on Green if there. Heck, I seem to change my choices around almost daily.

Saving best for last and what will stir up the most dissention; free agent CB Asomugha. I tell Oakland I am going hard for their guy and they will have to match with big bucks. Our #15 would look good to them but next year's 1st will not compensate well for losing a shut down corner. So.. we tell Oakland to establish Aso as a Franchise Exclusive player. We then offer a trade of Jacques Reeves, Andre Davis (who? Showed his abilities when AJ was out and then Schaub never threw to him in 2008. We move D. Anderson up. Not that he will get any more receptions)Jacoby Jones and next year's 1st. Much better for Oakland than two firsts. Oakland saves the cash and gets a steady CB with 4 INTS, a pretty decent WR, and then JJ offers excitement that Raider fans will enjoy + a first round pick in the 25 range.

We sign ASO a shut down CB to a $50 million 5 year with $20 m bonus.

Let the screams begin.
At this point in time I don't see how Raji will fall to us at #15, unless he has a bad Combine, which is not likely to happen. I will say this though, if Raji is gone at #15, I'm not sure there is anybody left that the Texans are high on at that spot, and I think Smith will be doing everything he can to trade back to get more value. If we sign Dunta, and I think they will, I don't see them going after a CB in the 1st. If one of the top OLT's (Oher, Monroe, J. Smith) happen, by some miracle, to fall to us, I think we would grab him. But other than that or Raji being there at #15, I think we trade back. JMHO!

As for getting Asomugha, well one can dream I guess.
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Old 01-28-2009   #12
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I wouldn't mind working out some kind of trade with the Raiders to pick up Oso and one of their RB's...Michael Bush and Oso would help solve two big needs...
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Old 01-28-2009   #13
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Default Re: Kicking around thoughts

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At this point in time I don't see how Raji will fall to us at #15, unless he has a bad Combine, which is not likely to happen. I will say this though, if Raji is gone at #15, I'm not sure there is anybody left that the Texans are high on at that spot, and I think Smith will be doing everything he can to trade back to get more value. If we sign Dunta, and I think they will, I don't see them going after a CB in the 1st. If one of the top OLT's (Oher, Monroe, J. Smith) happen, by some miracle, to fall to us, I think we would grab him. But other than that or Raji being there at #15, I think we trade back. JMHO!

As for getting Asomugha, well one can dream I guess.
That is my issue also. If Raji not there, I do not see anyone that might be available that I'd give #15 for. A trade down into the mid- to late 20's (Atlanta 25?) and getting a 2nd would be great. I really like Raji and that pick should take care of stopping the run which is one of the big 3 weaknesses. A 25 and another 2nd rounder can give us three pretty good players and a lot to choose from.

On Asomugha, you are the Raider owner. To keep your CB you have to put up some major bucks or accept two first rounds from team getting him. Either way, ASO gets a minimum of avg of top 5 at his position. I think few teams drafting top 14 will want to give up this pick and probably a high first next draft. If you franchise him he ain't going to like it as each year his chance to set himself up for life is reduced. plus there is no bonus $ for the player to smile over. Why not get some decent players in a trade and get a first round next year?

Oakland uses their #7 to get a right tackle and 2nd round to get a DT. We ship them a starting corner in Reeves. No he isn't ASO but who is? Oakland gets a pretty good receiver in Andre Davis and a decent returner in JJ. Plus a first in 2010.
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Old 01-28-2009   #14
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Default Re: Kicking around thoughts

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That is my issue also. If Raji not there, I do not see anyone that might be available that I'd give #15 for. A trade down into the mid- to late 20's (Atlanta 25?) and getting a 2nd would be great. I really like Raji and that pick should take care of stopping the run which is one of the big 3 weaknesses. A 25 and another 2nd rounder can give us three pretty good players and a lot to choose from.

On Asomugha, you are the Raider owner. To keep your CB you have to put up some major bucks or accept two first rounds from team getting him. Either way, ASO gets a minimum of avg of top 5 at his position. I think few teams drafting top 14 will want to give up this pick and probably a high first next draft. If you franchise him he ain't going to like it as each year his chance to set himself up for life is reduced. plus there is no bonus $ for the player to smile over. Why not get some decent players in a trade and get a first round next year?

Oakland uses their #7 to get a right tackle and 2nd round to get a DT. We ship them a starting corner in Reeves. No he isn't ASO but who is? Oakland gets a pretty good receiver in Andre Davis and a decent returner in JJ. Plus a first in 2010.
Not a chance. That is not even close to matching two 1st rounders.

Marcus Stroud was only worth a 3rd and a 5th last year. Those three guys combined probably don't equal Stroud.

Asomugha will probably only be had by giving up two 1st rounders. I don't see any other way.
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Old 01-28-2009   #15
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Do you have any idea on how long Gibbs is under contract? I think it is basically year to year as long as he wants to coach.
I am just saying that he has got to be in his mid 60's.
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Old 01-29-2009   #16
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Default Re: Kicking around thoughts

Note, small article in today's Houston Chronicle says ALex Gibbs re-signed for this year. No details.
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Old 01-29-2009   #17
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Default Re: Kicking around thoughts

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Not a chance. That is not even close to matching two 1st rounders.

Marcus Stroud was only worth a 3rd and a 5th last year. Those three guys combined probably don't equal Stroud.

Asomugha will probably only be had by giving up two 1st rounders. I don't see any other way.
It does not have to be equal. Read my thread again. There are only so many options on Asomugha. He is a free agent and Oakland can list him as a "franchise [u]exclusive[u]player" which allows team to give him a 1 year deal with salary equal to the avg top 5 corners OR 20% increase to Aso's last contract year; which ever is greater. That is going to be some big bucks. Plus, probably irritate the player who loses another year to get that "set 'em up for life deal." This option allows only Oakland to negotiate.

2nd option Oakland can declare him a franchise "non-exclusive"player". This allows player to negotiate with other teams and gives Oakland right to match offer or take two firsts. One this draft, one next. My thought is Texans would not give two 1sts for ASO due to this years needs, but would offer a trade. It is important to remember, if Oakland turns down the trade (or one like mine) Davis has to unload a bag of $ equal to top 5 avg for one year or re-sign to long term deal for even more $. Now Davis may do just that; but if he is willing to do so, why did he not offer a horse head contract that overwhelms ASO last season? I'm thinking Davis will not offer the big bucks to keep the CB.

It would be better to take an "unequal trade" than to lay out huge contract for a disgruntled employee. It is more than just "is Nnamdi Asomugha worth more than what I offered?" It is what are Oakland's options?
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Old 01-29-2009   #18
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Default Re: Kicking around thoughts

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It does not have to be equal. Read my thread again. There are only so many options on Asomugha. He is a free agent and Oakland can list him as a "franchise [u]exclusive[u]player" which allows team to give him a 1 year deal with salary equal to the avg top 5 corners OR 20% increase to Aso's last contract year; which ever is greater. That is going to be some big bucks. Plus, probably irritate the player who loses another year to get that "set 'em up for life deal." This option allows only Oakland to negotiate.

2nd option Oakland can declare him a franchise "non-exclusive"player". This allows player to negotiate with other teams and gives Oakland right to match offer or take two firsts. One this draft, one next. My thought is Texans would not give two 1sts for ASO due to this years needs, but would offer a trade. It is important to remember, if Oakland turns down the trade (or one like mine) Davis has to unload a bag of $ equal to top 5 avg for one year or re-sign to long term deal for even more $. Now Davis may do just that; but if he is willing to do so, why did he not offer a horse head contract that overwhelms ASO last season? I'm thinking Davis will not offer the big bucks to keep the CB.

It would be better to take an "unequal trade" than to lay out huge contract for a disgruntled employee. It is more than just "is Nnamdi Asomugha worth more than what I offered?" It is what are Oakland's options?
You think we will be the only team offering anything? This guy is a top 5 player at a premier position.

Your reasoning is right on but the trade you threw out there is a whiff.
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Old 01-29-2009   #19
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Default Re: Kicking around thoughts

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You think we will be the only team offering anything? This guy is a top 5 player at a premier position.

Your reasoning is right on but the trade you threw out there is a whiff.
How many trades are there for franchised players? I can't think of any right off. Most non-exclusive players change teams with the receiving team giving up the two first rounds. So just maybe we could be the only team offeing a trade. Maybe Oakland would take our offer and dangle before other teams. Is it worth a try? If the price gets too steep, just say no.

Please know I am not in disagreement with your view of his worth, just what can be done to get him. I had this same discussion over going after Assante Sammuels. Most said Assante would not leave or get the big bucks. Wrong on both counts.
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Old 01-29-2009   #20
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Default Re: Kicking around thoughts

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How many trades are there for franchised players? I can't think of any right off. Most non-exclusive players change teams with the receiving team giving up the two first rounds. So just maybe we could be the only team offeing a trade. Maybe Oakland would take our offer and dangle before other teams. Is it worth a try? If the price gets too steep, just say no.

Please know I am not in disagreement with your view of his worth, just what can be done to get him. I had this same discussion over going after Assante Sammuels. Most said Assante would not leave or get the big bucks. Wrong on both counts.
Okay well I like your premise. I think we got off on the wrong foot here.

I like everything you said. I just don't think that trade would be enough. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try.
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