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Old 01-12-2005   #41
rhc564
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Default missing the point

Quote:
Originally Posted by blockhead83
Just keep in mind Capers has coached two expansion franchises. They are not normally instant winners, and the fact that his only seasons were spent beginning them spoils the 'seasons without a winning record' statistic IMO. Our team has gotten progressively better the past three years. There is no reason to fire someone who shows progress every year.

Also, just because we're going to be running a more conservative, pound the ball offense does not mean dust will be accumulating on Carr's arm and Johnson's shoes. Ever heard of play action? You know, that thing the run sets up and the Colts have used to rack up huge yardage through the air?
We've drafted what we've felt has been the most talented person with our 1st round picks. Conservative offense or not I can't fault them for taking Andre Johnson rather than taking a less talented offensive lineman just because it fits our style of play in a more generic sense.

I don't see how you can say that a different coordinator would be seeing more success with innovative plays. That different coordinator would still be playing with our offensive line, which would give them the exact same problems. Palmer can't send in complex plays which don't have a snowball's chance in hell of developing before Carr gets sacked. Our running game showed promise again at the end of the season. If we can finally get our offensive line clicking next season, I'm almost positive we'll see a quantum leap in our passing game and a vast decrease in Palmer haters.
Three years, over 50 games, and we're still making excuses for the offense.
The OL. It's no closer to being effective going into the 4th year than it was
in the first. For those of you who survive on winning more games from one
year to the next, think about this--- losing to the Browns brought a whole
different perspective to next year. At 8-8, we would have to win next year
for the 'plan' to continue and be considered sucessful by some--we only
have to be 8-8,now, and most of you would buy another 7-9 as OL adjust-
ments are maturing into place. Capers is no dummy...time--that's what it's
all about. Cap issues,talent issues,injury issues,age issues are always going
to be a part of the equation---time will not change this. In any given year,
the teams that win will be the ones who take the cards they are dealt
and play to win. Others, will want more time as they play not to lose...
yet, by losing, do they get more time?
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Old 01-12-2005   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhc564
It's no closer to being effective going into the 4th year than it was
in the first.
1st year: 3983 yds, 213 Pts, rank #32
2nd year: 4492 yds, 255 Pts, rank #28
3rd year: 5429 yds, 309 Pts, rank #21

Sorry, when I got to that line, the rest of your post lacked credibiility.
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Old 01-12-2005   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bckey
Boy thats original, see Pittsburgh. Like we all don't know Capers was a dc there.
Oh my I have been unoriginal, shame on me. Of course it isn't original--it is the plan Capers has had in mind since he interviewed for the position. It is about what type team he wants to build and that is a team like the Steelers, Panthers (last year) or Patriots (this year)--a team that may give up yards, but not points, a team that can control the clock, i.e. run the ball, and a team with big play potential.

Quote:
I really can't picture Carr playing in a Pittsburgh style offense. For that matter Johnson or Davis either. Our ol sucks at pass blocking. Maybe we aren't drafting the right players for the type of team you are describing that we want to be. It doesn't take a top tier qb to run a steeler type offense. Are we going to POUND the ball with Davis? Is Andre doomed to play on a team that is rarely going to use him?
You stated there was no plan. You were wrong and now when faced with the plan want to say you don't like the plan. That's fine, but while you are criticizing the plan at least try to keep your facts somewhere near reality. This Carr and AJ are wasted if the Texans want to be a Steelers like team argument that is flying around is just another internet bandwagon with no wheels. Ooh Carr is too much of a gunslinger and too high a draft pick to have as a QB in a pound the ball offense--yeah, right--have the folks that espouse this theory noticed who the rookie of the year is?--you know, the 11th draft pick?--here is a hint, he is a strong armed mobile QB. Oh my I have to wring my hands that AJ is just wasting away never being thrown the ball, he has too much talent to be in a Steelers like offense--yeah, nevermind he is in the pro-bowl, was targetted more than all but 2 or 3 WR's this year and nevermind that the Steelers believed the way to build their system was to spend high draft picks on a QB & WR's--Plaxico Burress 1st round (8th pick), Antwan Randel El 2nd round, Hines Ward 3rd round. As for can they pound the ball with DD--maybe, maybe not--and the not will be health not skill. Did you notice his rushing totals for the last 6 games--4 100 yd games (and one just under at 95 yds) 6 rushing TD's and 1 receiving TD. And to be like the Steelers, the Texans will almost certainly draft/acquire a 2nd back to team with DD this off-season. Yeah the OL sucked at pass blocking in the 2nd half of the season but that doesn't mean they planned for it to be that way--the Texans have tried all sorts of things to make the OL work--it just hasn't gotten there yet

So you said there wasn't a plan when there was. Now you don't like the plan they have. Other than fire everyone and this plan sucks, how about suggesting alternatives--who are the available replacement coaches? What plan (or name a team the Texans should be like) would fit the personnel the Texans have? How long is it going to take for the new gunslinging offense to click (after presumably building a non-matador pass blocking OL) and how long to rebuild the Roman colliseum defense? Hopefully less than three years since that is all the chance Capers has had. Complaining without a solution has to be one of the most useless endeavors around.

Quote:
Our team doesn't even remotely resemble Pittsburgh.
Yeah and Pittsburgh this year doesn't even remotely resemble Pittsburgh last year. 6-10 to 15-1. And done without firing all the coaches, abandoning the plan and wholesale changing the players. Hmmmm.
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Old 01-12-2005   #44
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I don't think anyone is giving up on Capers. Next season will tell a huge story of the organization and its take on our coaching staff, from top to bottom. Let's give Capers a chance. 4 wins 5 wins 7 wins .... could 9 or 10 be next? That would be the playoffs more than likely.
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Old 01-12-2005   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noxiousdog
1st year: 3983 yds, 213 Pts, rank #32
2nd year: 4492 yds, 255 Pts, rank #28
3rd year: 5429 yds, 309 Pts, rank #21

Sorry, when I got to that line, the rest of your post lacked credibiility.
...thanks for echoing my post---after 3 years and facing major hurdles,
the Texans are still ranked in the bottom 3rd of the league...when will
they get to the top of the 1/3?

Yes, time is definitely something the Texans need...
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Old 01-12-2005   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhc564
...thanks for echoing my post---after 3 years and facing major hurdles,
the Texans are still ranked in the bottom 3rd of the league...when will
they get to the top of the 1/3?

Yes, time is definitely something the Texans need...
Actually, that would be middle third. And quit moving the goal posts. Earlier you wanted 'significant improvement.' Now you want top third.

Who is the one without a plan again?
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Old 01-12-2005   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noxiousdog
Actually, that would be middle third. And quit moving the goal posts. Earlier you wanted 'significant improvement.' Now you want top third.

Who is the one without a plan again?
32 divided by 3 is 10.67 times 2 equals 21.33 and the Texans are at 21---
also, if we are in the middle by less than a point, our next room for
improvement would be the top 1/3, so I really don't follow your logic
(or lack there of)
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Old 01-12-2005   #48
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I don't see why we have to jump third's of the NFL to have it be considered improvement. We went from #28 to #21. 28 - 21 = 7. We've moved up seven spots in the rankings, that is called improvement. That's, what, like three spots away from being a third anyways? Do you understand that logic?
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Old 01-13-2005   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhc564
Three years, over 50 games, and we're still making excuses for the offense.
In any given year,
the teams that win will be the ones who take the cards they are dealt
and play to win. Others, will want more time as they play not to lose...
yet, by losing, do they get more time?
Then the Colts are hiding cards under the table and accumulating them.

This year they started a rookie 5th round draft choice at right guard. Brandon Stokely at wide receiver -with only 2 years prior experience with the team. Stokely has as much experience with the Colts as any Texan has with the Texans.
and the Colts also have (experience is with the colts)
Marvin Harrison (9 years exp drafted 1st round 96)
E. James (6 years exp drafted 1st round 99)
Reggie Wayne ( 4 years exp drafted 1st round 2001)
Peyton Manning ( 7 years exp drafted 1st round 1998)
Tarik Glenn -pro bowl LT (8 years exp drafted 1st 1997)
Jeff Saturday (6 years exp signed as FA 1999 -released by Baltimore in 98)
Rick DeMulling (4 years exp drafted in round 7 2001)
Ryan Diem (4 years exp drafted in round 4 2001)

I would say the Colts took quite a bit of time to accumulate these players. The Texans plan was to accumulate their CORE group of players over four or five years. Once you have your Core group and they have been together for at least two years, then progress should grow exponentially. By year four they should compete for the payoffs but will still be inconsistent. I believe this years draft is still accumulating core players.
Have they obtained the right group of core players? That truly can not be graded for players like Pitts, Wand, and Glen Earl until the 2006 season. I think for players like Johnson and Robinson every football fan would agree they were outstanding additions to the Core. Personally, without trying to rate everyone, I include Carr, DD, Wiegert, Wade, Smith, Johnson, Robinson, Faggins and Gaffney with this group. .

Think of Players like Payne Coleman and Glenn as coaches (or dads) for the upcoming members of the core group as much as anything. Hopefully they will be able to enjoy seeing these the youngsters into maturity. i.e, they play and win for a year or two as member of the core before needing to be replaced by an up and comer. Once you have built your core a couple of nice additions each year (starter or key backup) keep you winning. The major key is not to have any bust in your major free agent acquistions or your high round draft choices.
Sometimes you are improved greatly when a not so big name free agent or low round draft choice come in and excel.

So in the first three years of existence, don't grade by the performance of the team as a whole or even won/ lost record but by the accumulation of core players. This is as much Casserly's responsibility as Capers.

Casserly, Capers, et al have had some "wins" and some "losses". Without looking back wins that come to mind are Domanick Davis (4th round and Petey Faggins(6th?round).
Losses that come to mind are Charles Hill (DL drafted in the third round who should be starting by now but never made the team) and Benny Joppru although C&C can not be held responsible for unexpected injuries (stuff happens).

Ist and 2nd round draft choices are expected to be wins so they can only be losses. I guess they would be a "win" when they become pro bowlers. Low round draft choices can only be wins as they are only marginally expected to make the team. If they start in say their second year they are a win.

I would say that two of the biggest question marks from the fans view point right now is, are Pitts and Wand "wins or losses"?. Unless you are viewing coaching film and attending practices you are not qualified to score these two just yet. While most would want to score them a lost based on the line play at the end of the year, the experience gained could improve their overall play next year.

In other words put your desire for instant graitification on hold and HAVE A GRAIN of PATIENCE.

Worst case scenario we have built enough of the core group to be competitive for several years but competitive in the NFL these days is only 8-8. We need a few more "wins" over this offseason and the next one to achieve the level the fans all desire for. If after the 2006 season we grade as having achieved the "wins" player wise and are not achieving the wins one the field then you move on to another head coach. This is a scenario in which a new head coach can come in and succeed quickly. The worse situation is if you have not achieved the "wins" player wise. Then you have to consider changing more staff - GM, Head Coach, scouts, etc. And then you are the CLEVELAND BROWNS organization of this year.
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Old 01-13-2005   #50
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Default And then you are the CLEVELAND BROWNS...

Was it the 4th year the Browns made the playoffs?
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Old 01-16-2005   #51
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Once upon a time Houston ('88) had Ray Sherman, Nick Saban, June Jones and Kim Helton on the same staff with Glanville. It was another GM and another team but I think the lesson here is look at your hand before you draw. If we ever get around to replacing Dom it should be with someone close to the organization. Otherwise it would be expansionacity all over again while we adjust to a new scheme.
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Old 01-16-2005   #52
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People will beyatch until they get into the playoffs. Then when they get to the playoffs and lose, they will beyatch even more. Go read some of the Jets boards this morning. Sounds just like ours - they are killing Hackett and Herm. Poor play calling - playing not to lose - you name it. I guess having the leagues leading rusher isn't good enough for them. Like us, some criticism is warranted (Pennington's shoulder injury didn't help) but there's many who go overboard and jump on the fire whomever bandwagon out of emotion or because the dinger on the microwave just went off.

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Old 01-16-2005   #53
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because the dinger on the microwave just went off.
Your killing me AJ! LOL. Man that is SOOOO true.
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Old 01-18-2005   #54
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You are right. I don't like some of the plan and I don't see how Carr, Johnson, and Davis are Pittsburgh like players. I knew the type of defense Capers would try and build here but not the offense. Just by looking at the offensive players we have and have drafted I would never have guessed in a million years Capers wants to pound the ball and make the offense resemble Pittsburgh.
I would go after Romeo Crennel. He knows the 3-4 defense and the version of it they have in New England is the best I have seen. We would stay on track with our building plan this way. Crennel is a superbowl winner and always has a gameplan that seems to work against the opposing team that week. I would do something unique and ask Dom if he would accept a demotion to DC. A lot of head coaches that were let go end up going back to either OC or DC whatever their previos job was. It would be a bonus for Romeo to have Capers concentrating solely on defense. If Capers said no then I'm sure Romeo would know who to fill the DC spot.
I would get rid of Palmer. Get Russ Grim if you want to stick to a Pittsburgh style offense but make a change here. If we made only 1 change it would have to be OC. Mike Heimerdinger from the Titans is good but he would probably want a head coaching job. I'm not sure if Jim Fassel has signed on with anyone but he would be good also. Look at college coaches and find someone but Palmer shows no innovation at all.
These are just my opinions so don't all you Capers lovers get all upset. I like the Texans as much as anyone. It doesn't mean you have to like the coach or back every decision they make to be a fan. I think we will eventually make the playoffs under Capers but never a superbowl IMHO. He doesn't know how to coach a winner and has proven it. You Capers lovers will see after 5 years what some of us see now. Playoffs are nice but we had that with the Oilers. I don't think anything less than an eventual superbowl appearance will suffice and that is where we differ on Capers. An OC change could help us but Capers would have to have a hands off approach for it to work. Maybe Capers is crippling Palmers play calling now.
I would love to be proven wrong because that would mean the Texans are in the superbowl in the 2006 season.
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Old 01-18-2005   #55
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My eyes are burning.....
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Old 01-18-2005   #56
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Crennel is the favorite to be the next coach of the Browns. I'd read and heard a few places where he interviewed fantastically and the team is ready to make him an offer.
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Old 01-18-2005   #57
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Once/if the Pats lose soon. If they win another SB, Crennel won't have teh time to put a staff together and teh Browns know this.
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Old 01-18-2005   #58
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Quote:
and I don't see how Carr, Johnson, and Davis are Pittsburgh like players.
i still can't believe people are keep saying this. what, do our "big 3" not resemble pittsburg players because the names "roethlisberger, burress, and staley" aren't on their jersey's? how is it hard to see the similarities between both groups of impact players?
-
Duce Staley------------------Domanick Davis
Position: RB-------------------Position: RB
Height: 5-11------------------Height: 5-9
Weight: 242------------------Weight: 221
-
although Duce is already the more proven power runner, they have similair running styles and can catch out of the back field (DD having the slight edge over staley)
-
Ben Roethlisberger---------------David Carr
Position: QB--------------------Position: QB
Height: 6-4--------------------Height: 6-3
Weight: 241-------------------Weight: 220
-
both QB's are "from the mold" pocket passer's but can and do beat you with their legs (ben having better pocket presence but car doing more with his feet downfield)
-
Plaixco Burress--------------------Andre Johnson
Position: WR---------------------Position: WR
Height: 6-5----------------------Height: 6-3
Weight: 226---------------------Weight: 219
-
again, both are big, physical recievers that are capable of big plays any time they get the ball (andre having the speed edge over plaxico)
-

so how do our draft choices contradict the numerously, stated and very much apparent, plan when trying to emulate the 15-1 pittsburg steelers?

......just had a revalation. i think the people that are so against caper's plan and the direction of the team are more concerned with "high flying/exciting/fun and gun" football than a real winning team. diversity is great, and different coaching philosphies give us something to talk about and analyze....but when it comes down too it, why do we have so many fans against us emulating a traditionally successful franchise and a 15-1 team that is favored in going to the big one this year?
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Old 01-18-2005   #59
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I think we will eventually make the playoffs under Capers but never a superbowl IMHO. He doesn't know how to coach a winner and has proven it. You Capers lovers will see after 5 years what some of us see now.
Don't stick your neck out or anything. You act as if it's easy to get to the Super Bowl.

There's only two head coaches out of 32 that get to the Super Bowl each year. Plus, out of 293 opportunities since 1966, only 38 head coaches (13%) have ever taken a team to the Super Bowl. So playing the odds, there's a 87% chance that any head coach we (or any other team) brings in won't make it the the Super Bowl.

Some of the anti-Capers arguments sound a lot like Browns fans when Belichick was there. He had a 37-45 record in his five seasons as head coach there and people would say the same thing about him, i.e., "he's a good coordinator but not head coach material."

A lot of things have to fall in place to make the big game - Reason's swiss cheese analogy anyone?

Go ask Andy Reid (a winner in my book) how difficult it is to get to The Show.

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Old 01-18-2005   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bckey
You are right. I don't like some of the plan and I don't see how Carr, Johnson, and Davis are Pittsburgh like players.
Well maybe you need to explain how they are not Pittsburgh like players.

My point on this was in response to all the folks that say the Texans aren't built like the Steelers and have used high draft picks on Carr & Johnson who are being wasted in a ball control offense. Well the Steelers are the most ball control offense in the league and what have they done?--yup used high draft picks on QB's (1st) and WR's (1st, 2nd & 3rd). So what is this massive difference?

You know how the Texans aren't built like the Steelers?--the Texans have 4 1st round draft picks on the team (one gained by giving up a bunch of other draft picks)--the Steelers have 9--may have something to do with the different results from coaches with the same goal.
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