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Old 01-10-2005   #21
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I for one will be happy to see Capers back next season and if the Texans continue to get better then the season after that. Just once before I die (which hopefully will be many years from now) I'd like to see someone brought in to build something be given enough time to really be able to determine whether or not they did it right. It seems like time and time again coaches get a chance to coach a team and before they've even been given enough time to do anything with it they're dumped. Like or dislike Chris Palmer you have to admit that the Browns didn't even keep him around long enough to tell whether he was going to be able to build that team. Before he even had a good core of players he was out the door. Dom in Carolina was able to build quickly with veterans and they went to the NFC Championship in their second season. When the completely natural thing happened and the team got old quick he wasn't given the time to rebuild. Only Tom Coughlin comes to mind as a recent expansion coach who was given enough time to do the job.

I think it'll be a refreshing change of pace to see what happens when Capers gets 5 or 6 years. If we're winning then the Texans will look brilliant and if we're losing then nobody will be able to say that Capers didn't have the time to do the job.
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Old 01-10-2005   #22
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The Cowboys sure gave Tom Landry plenty of time to develop a team. After their fourth year in 1963, people were saying that Landry was going to have to win the next season or get fired. The Cowboys showed their faith in Landry by signing him to a 10 year contract. They went on to have another losing season in 1964 and only broke even in 1965, their 6th season. But then in 1966 they began a long string of winning seasons. If the Cowboys had given in to public pressure, Tom Landry would be known as a coaching failure in Dallas.
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Old 01-10-2005   #23
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with all the threads on this subject i'm just gonna keep saying this...if you want to fire capers it's really gonna limit you to who you can bring in because we only have the defensive personal for a 3-4 defense...you'll have to bring in another 3-4 coach...and personally i don't see that happening
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Old 01-11-2005   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hervoyel
I for one will be happy to see Capers back next season and if the Texans continue to get better then the season after that. Just once before I die (which hopefully will be many years from now) I'd like to see someone brought in to build something be given enough time to really be able to determine whether or not they did it right. It seems like time and time again coaches get a chance to coach a team and before they've even been given enough time to do anything with it they're dumped. Like or dislike Chris Palmer you have to admit that the Browns didn't even keep him around long enough to tell whether he was going to be able to build that team. Before he even had a good core of players he was out the door. Dom in Carolina was able to build quickly with veterans and they went to the NFC Championship in their second season. When the completely natural thing happened and the team got old quick he wasn't given the time to rebuild. Only Tom Coughlin comes to mind as a recent expansion coach who was given enough time to do the job.
The problem is that if it is decided at the end of 5 years that Capers didn't cut it then we just wasted our first 5 years because we BLINDLY said he is here for 5 years regardless. No evaluation along the way. IMHO Capers is nothing more than a defensive cordinator. He isn't head coach material. The only way Capers could get us to the super bowl is with a good enough cordinators and he just stayed out of the way. Our team sure lacked the heart it showed the 2nd year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hervoyel
I think it'll be a refreshing change of pace to see what happens when Capers gets 5 or 6 years. If we're winning then the Texans will look brilliant and if we're losing then nobody will be able to say that Capers didn't have the time to do the job.
So what is the measuring stick along the way that Capers is judged by? Season record alone? I think the Texans looked really bad offensively this year but yes they were better than the previous 2. I think the offense is hurt more by our playbook than anything else. We could question our drafts offensively by taking Carr and Johnson if Capers just wants to pound the ball and play conservatively. Our offensive line is terrible. Say what you want but it wasn't smart to change the line blocking scheme and shuffle players after we showed marked improvement from year 1 to year 2. I know zone bocking has nothing to do with passing downs but something sure caused them to take a step backwards in pass blocking. Maybe trying to digest the zone blocking broke their rhythm for pass blocking. Maybe it was the shuffling. Maybe they aren't the right size and type of linemen for zone blocking.
Capers is like David Schwimmer (Friends) on Band of Brothers. He can whip em into shape but he doesn't know how to lead them.
Bottom line is we did improve but not enough regardless of our record. We took just as many steps backwards as we did forward. Dunta was our best drafted player yet. I would say Johnson but we will never use him to his full potential.
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Old 01-11-2005   #25
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I would disagree with the statement that our playbook has hampered our offense more than anything else. I think you could use any playbook in the NFL and we'd still have limited success with our o-line. We simply cannot open up the passing game with no protection. The opposing defense can create monster pressure with a four man rush, and take Carr's downfield options away with the other seven men they have on the field which leaves him with the little desperation dunks to Domanick. Our running game has steadily improved this season, and is pretty close to where it was last season, IMO. When you can run for a buck fifty against the Jags you're doing alright. As far as the Texans not drafting correctly if they're going to be playing a conservative style of football, I disagree again. I think we've taken the player we thought had the most talent and potential with our choices, and I agree with that strategy.

As for Capers, I'm all for giving him 5+ years. I agree with Herv that he should be given his time in the spotlight to perform. Look at the revolving door they call the head coach in cleveland. You can't expect instant results and turnarounds from an expansion franchise which, from the onset, was being methodically built for a super bowl run. Capers has a blue print for what he thinks will bring a championship to Houston. McNair and Casserly are well aware of what he's trying to do, and they knew it when they began this thing. Give Capers the chance to finish his plan, we're already 3 seasons into the five year plan. Why start over when we're so close to reaping the fruits of our labor?

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Old 01-11-2005   #26
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Several of you talk about the 'plan'--for some it's a 4yr plan, others a 5 yr
plan and for others a 6 yr plan that is still growing.

For me, having a plan translates to stability--define what the plan is and
what it will take to achieve the plan. A plan does not translate in to change
because the whole idea of the time frame is to give the plan time to succeed.
If you are always making changes to the plan, what are you really doing?
You are adding more time to achieving the goals of the plan.

We made a major change in our blocking scheme in mid stream with a group
of players who were not only new to the scheme, but were also new to
each other and (in many cases) their posisition.

Our Coach wants us to be a power running team. Going into our 4th year,
do we have the players to achieve this goal (plan)?

We can not protect our quarterback. We can not pressure/sack the opposing
teams quarterback.

The plan. Maybe there really is one- maybe there isn't. By now, even in losing, we should have some idea of what that plan is and how we're going
to make it happen. Do we have an idea(s)?....or do we just need to keep
adding more time?
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Old 01-11-2005   #27
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Overall I think Capers is meeting expectations. No doubt there have been moments of disappointment and frustration, but I think he's done a good job. But I'll humor you on this one. "IF" a coaching change was made I'd go after Crennel or Jimmy Johnson. Flip a coin and I'd be happy.
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Old 01-11-2005   #28
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Nolan (Defensive Coord/ Balitmore Ravens)

I really don't like the 3-4 personally but since the Texans seem to be set on the 3-4, might as well get a coach that knows what the 3-4 is all about. For his Ray Lewis he has Jamie Sharper. For his Terrell Suggs he has Antwann Peek. For Peter Boulware he has Jason Babin. and For the sake of the arguement if he came this season do you think, Edgerton Hartwell would have any reason not to come to Houston.... NO!!

LB Core: Peek/Wong, Hartwell, Sharper, Babin

Pertaining to the D-Line the got the proper amount of pressure from the LBs that he didn't have to have this High Priced Pass Rushing Line. Adalius Thomas played some End but that's it. So all these overpaid - no sack having - none penetrating D-Linemen we have now could be let go and this clears up soooooo much cap room from other upgrades.

While he doesn't have a human highlight reel like Ed Reed back their i think he could find or sign one in the near future. Also he probably would be thinking Youth Injection so I could see Auburn's star CB Rogers in a Texan's Uniform and probably Darnell Bing or Thomas Davis back there.

DB Core: Robinson, Bing/Davis, Earl, Glenn/Rogers

We get him a go Offensive Coordinator and we will be good to go. I'm pretty sure that we would be able to get any good coordinator that would love to have Carr, Davis and Johnson at their hands.
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Old 01-11-2005   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Human Highlight Reel
So all these overpaid - no sack having - none penetrating D-Linemen we have now could be let go and this clears up soooooo much cap room from other upgrades.
The cap doesn't work that way and what are the odds of finding 3 guys that are going to perform better in one off-season?--any specific suggestions? Walker and Smith got $21 mil in signing bonuses last year--let them go and what you get is an immediate $15 mil or so in dead space, i.e. eaten up cap space paid for people not even on the team. Not a realistic plan.

Quote:
DB Core: Robinson, Bing/Davis, Earl, Glenn/Rogers
Great 3 SS's in a pass happy division. Not going to work.
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Old 01-11-2005   #30
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The problem is that nobody has ever defined the plan that I know of. All we hear is 5 years and I've even heard that was never in stone either. It basically comes from the length of Capers contract which means nothing in the modern NFL. You absolutely can not give anybody 5 years without making them definine their plan and also setting up some kind of way to measure how the plan is progressing each year. If someone has some specifics I'd like to hear em.
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Old 01-11-2005   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bckey
The problem is that nobody has ever defined the plan that I know of.
Exactly how would you like them to define the plan? They have said they want to progress each year to a play-off/superbowl contending team that is not built to disintegrate in short order--i.e. trying to avoid cap issues and drafting to replace people instead of always dipping into high priced FA's. They have defined the type team they want to be--a solid 3-4 defense, control the clock, semi-run oriented team with big strike potential--for reference see Pittsburgh--that is what they want to build. Recognizing that offensive players often take longer to develop they spent much of the 1st two drafts on O and then turned to getting D playmakers last year. What exactly do you want by further for a description?--a prediction that next year they will win 10 games, be in the top 10 in O and/or D--those are targets not a plan.
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Old 01-11-2005   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bckey
You absolutely can not give anybody 5 years without making them definine their plan and also setting up some kind of way to measure how the plan is progressing each year. If someone has some specifics I'd like to hear em.
Why not?

Would the fans accept anything less than Super Bowl every year?

If they set more realistic expectations like say 7-9, aren't people going to say, they were just happy to win 7 so they gave up the last game?

It is enough for me that Charlie and Dom outline the season expectations to Bob McNair. As long as he's satisfied and I don't see the team quit, I'm comfortable with letting Dom continue.

Besides, look at the evidence. Playoff teams have had remarkable continuity of coaching staffs. Non-playoff teams, not so much.
Dungy: 3 years
Shanahan: 10 years
Schottenheimer: 3 years
Edwards: 4 years
Belichick: 5 years
Cowher: 13 years
Mora Jr.: 1 year
Sherman: 5 years
Tice: 4 years
Reid: 6 years
Holmgren: 6 years
Martz: 5 years

One guy out of 12 has been with his team for at least the last 3 years.

Here's non-playoff teams for comparison:
Del Rio: 2
Capers: 3
Fisher: 8
Billick: 6
Lewis: 2
Davis/Robiskie: 3.5/.5
Mularkey: 1
Wanstadt/Bates: 4.5/.5
Vermeil: 4
Turner: 1
Erickson: 2
Green: 1
Coughlin: 1
Parcells: 2
Gibbs: 1
Smith: 1
Mariucci: 2
Gruden: 3
Fox: 3
Haslett: 5

While continuity doesn't cause success, it seems to be an important ingredient. So, unless you want to start over with a new 3 year plan.....
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Old 01-11-2005   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noxiousdog
While continuity doesn't cause success, it seems to be an important ingredient. So, unless you want to start over with a new 3 year plan.....
Good post. And looking more closely at the non-playoff teams 3 of the guys with 4 or more years, Billick, Fisher and Vermeil are coming off play-off seasons.
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Old 01-11-2005   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noxiousdog
Why not?

Would the fans accept anything less than Super Bowl every year?

If they set more realistic expectations like say 7-9, aren't people going to say, they were just happy to win 7 so they gave up the last game?

It is enough for me that Charlie and Dom outline the season expectations to Bob McNair. As long as he's satisfied and I don't see the team quit, I'm comfortable with letting Dom continue.

Besides, look at the evidence. Playoff teams have had remarkable continuity of coaching staffs. Non-playoff teams, not so much.
Dungy: 3 years
Shanahan: 10 years
Schottenheimer: 3 years
Edwards: 4 years
Belichick: 5 years
Cowher: 13 years
Mora Jr.: 1 year
Sherman: 5 years
Tice: 4 years
Reid: 6 years
Holmgren: 6 years
Martz: 5 years

One guy out of 12 has been with his team for at least the last 3 years.

Here's non-playoff teams for comparison:
Del Rio: 2
Capers: 3
Fisher: 8
Billick: 6
Lewis: 2
Davis/Robiskie: 3.5/.5
Mularkey: 1
Wanstadt/Bates: 4.5/.5
Vermeil: 4
Turner: 1
Erickson: 2
Green: 1
Coughlin: 1
Parcells: 2
Gibbs: 1
Smith: 1
Mariucci: 2
Gruden: 3
Fox: 3
Haslett: 5

While continuity doesn't cause success, it seems to be an important ingredient. So, unless you want to start over with a new 3 year plan.....
Excellent post. I think coaches need continuity in order to give them a chance to do what they do best, and win some football games. In the right situation a coach can come in and have instant success, but in the Texans situation Capers came in with nothing. He's started from scratch. You would have thought that Joe Gibbs would have had a good year. He had Portis to run the ball and an excellent defense, plus he is a Hall of Fame type coach. Even with all of the ingredients seemingly there, you can't always expect instant results.
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Old 01-11-2005   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrycak
Exactly how would you like them to define the plan? They have said they want to progress each year to a play-off/superbowl contending team that is not built to disintegrate in short order--i.e. trying to avoid cap issues and drafting to replace people instead of always dipping into high priced FA's. They have defined the type team they want to be--a solid 3-4 defense, control the clock, semi-run oriented team with big strike potential--for reference see Pittsburgh--that is what they want to build. Recognizing that offensive players often take longer to develop they spent much of the 1st two drafts on O and then turned to getting D playmakers last year. What exactly do you want by further for a description?--a prediction that next year they will win 10 games, be in the top 10 in O and/or D--those are targets not a plan.
...just one little thought/question here as it relates to 'the plan'...keeping
this very simple, let's limit this to the OL. How many draft prospects have
experience in our new blocking scheme? Any? What happens if we replace
an existing line man with a free agent or draftee? Do we see immediate
positive results? Or, do we start a new learning curve that most likely
leads to similar results we had in '04? For this 'plan' to work, there have
to be positive results somewhere to at the very least begin to work on--
so, as it relates to the OL, what is Caper's plan?

Last edited by rhc564; 01-11-2005 at 04:54 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 01-11-2005   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhc564
How many draft prospects have
experience in our new blocking scheme? Any? What happens if we replace
an existing line man with a free agent or draftee? Do we see immediate
positive results? Or, do we start a new learning curve that most likely
leads to similar results we had in '04? For this 'plan' to work, there have
to be positive results somewhere to at the very least begin to work on--
so, as it relates to the OL, what is Caper's plan?
Someone who watches more college ball can answer for draft prospects, but my understanding is virtually all NFL teams (including the Texans last year) mix in some zone blocking so the concept is not so unique as some believe. As for learning curves, well if you give in to chicken little syndrome and replace the majority of the OL then you can certainly expect a new learning curve. If you identify a player as a weak link, McKinney for example, and draft or trade for a replacement to work his way into the line-up a superior skill level may not result in much drop off even while they are getting accomodated. IMO the plan this year was to get pretty close to the personnel and system they want for the next few years and let them get experience and gel. While IMO improving the play of the OL is the single biggest need for next year, I don't see wholesale system or personnel changes. My suspicion is draft one C or G and get a solid but not high priced G or C through FA--depending on Spears' contract status, maybe a vet T as well.
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Old 01-12-2005   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrycak
Exactly how would you like them to define the plan? They have said they want to progress each year to a play-off/superbowl contending team that is not built to disintegrate in short order--i.e. trying to avoid cap issues and drafting to replace people instead of always dipping into high priced FA's. They have defined the type team they want to be--a solid 3-4 defense, control the clock, semi-run oriented team with big strike potential--for reference see Pittsburgh--that is what they want to build. Recognizing that offensive players often take longer to develop they spent much of the 1st two drafts on O and then turned to getting D playmakers last year. What exactly do you want by further for a description?--a prediction that next year they will win 10 games, be in the top 10 in O and/or D--those are targets not a plan.
Boy thats original, see Pittsburgh. Like we all don't know Capers was a dc there. Actually that is what Capers should still be doing. Coaching defense. Some people just are not cut out for being head coaches and I believe Capers is one of those people. He has a track record as being a loser as a head coach. He has 46 wins and 66 losses as a head coach with 1 winning season out of 7. Only 1 out of 7 seasons was better than 7 and 9. How in the world did this guy get a reputation as knowing how to build a team?
Our team doesn't even remotely resemble Pittsburgh. Our dl is now old and disentegrating and in only 3 years. We are even getting close to cap issues.
I really can't picture Carr playing in a Pittsburgh style offense. For that matter Johnson or Davis either. Our ol sucks at pass blocking. Maybe we aren't drafting the right players for the type of team you are describing that we want to be. It doesn't take a top tier qb to run a steeler type offense. Are we going to POUND the ball with Davis? Is Andre doomed to play on a team that is rarely going to use him?
I understand that you want stability by having a coach stay for a period of years. Capers will never win a superbowl here with our current staff. He needs a staff that can be inovative and design plays built to our personels strengths. Then he needs to just hold his clipboard and keep stats and stay out of the way.
We have some really good players whose talents are not being tapped to their full potential. Find someone that can tap into that and we'll have a winner.
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Old 01-12-2005   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noxiousdog
Why not?

Would the fans accept anything less than Super Bowl every year?

If they set more realistic expectations like say 7-9, aren't people going to say, they were just happy to win 7 so they gave up the last game?

It is enough for me that Charlie and Dom outline the season expectations to Bob McNair. As long as he's satisfied and I don't see the team quit, I'm comfortable with letting Dom continue.

Besides, look at the evidence. Playoff teams have had remarkable continuity of coaching staffs. Non-playoff teams, not so much.
Dungy: 3 years
Shanahan: 10 years
Schottenheimer: 3 years
Edwards: 4 years
Belichick: 5 years
Cowher: 13 years
Mora Jr.: 1 year
Sherman: 5 years
Tice: 4 years
Reid: 6 years
Holmgren: 6 years
Martz: 5 years

One guy out of 12 has been with his team for at least the last 3 years.

Here's non-playoff teams for comparison:
Del Rio: 2
Capers: 3
Fisher: 8
Billick: 6
Lewis: 2
Davis/Robiskie: 3.5/.5
Mularkey: 1
Wanstadt/Bates: 4.5/.5
Vermeil: 4
Turner: 1
Erickson: 2
Green: 1
Coughlin: 1
Parcells: 2
Gibbs: 1
Smith: 1
Mariucci: 2
Gruden: 3
Fox: 3
Haslett: 5

While continuity doesn't cause success, it seems to be an important ingredient. So, unless you want to start over with a new 3 year plan.....

I would rather do it now than wait 2 more years and do it.
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Old 01-12-2005   #39
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Originally Posted by bckey
Boy thats original, see Pittsburgh. Like we all don't know Capers was a dc there. Actually that is what Capers should still be doing. Coaching defense. Some people just are not cut out for being head coaches and I believe Capers is one of those people. He has a track record as being a loser as a head coach. He has 46 wins and 66 losses as a head coach with 1 winning season out of 7. Only 1 out of 7 seasons was better than 7 and 9. How in the world did this guy get a reputation as knowing how to build a team?
Our team doesn't even remotely resemble Pittsburgh. Our dl is now old and disentegrating and in only 3 years. We are even getting close to cap issues.
I really can't picture Carr playing in a Pittsburgh style offense. For that matter Johnson or Davis either. Our ol sucks at pass blocking. Maybe we aren't drafting the right players for the type of team you are describing that we want to be. It doesn't take a top tier qb to run a steeler type offense. Are we going to POUND the ball with Davis? Is Andre doomed to play on a team that is rarely going to use him?
I understand that you want stability by having a coach stay for a period of years. Capers will never win a superbowl here with our current staff. He needs a staff that can be inovative and design plays built to our personels strengths. Then he needs to just hold his clipboard and keep stats and stay out of the way.
We have some really good players whose talents are not being tapped to their full potential. Find someone that can tap into that and we'll have a winner.
I have said similar things until I'm blue in the face...................
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Old 01-12-2005   #40
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Just keep in mind Capers has coached two expansion franchises. They are not normally instant winners, and the fact that his only seasons were spent beginning them spoils the 'seasons without a winning record' statistic IMO. Our team has gotten progressively better the past three years. There is no reason to fire someone who shows progress every year.

Also, just because we're going to be running a more conservative, pound the ball offense does not mean dust will be accumulating on Carr's arm and Johnson's shoes. Ever heard of play action? You know, that thing the run sets up and the Colts have used to rack up huge yardage through the air?
We've drafted what we've felt has been the most talented person with our 1st round picks. Conservative offense or not I can't fault them for taking Andre Johnson rather than taking a less talented offensive lineman just because it fits our style of play in a more generic sense.

I don't see how you can say that a different coordinator would be seeing more success with innovative plays. That different coordinator would still be playing with our offensive line, which would give them the exact same problems. Palmer can't send in complex plays which don't have a snowball's chance in hell of developing before Carr gets sacked. Our running game showed promise again at the end of the season. If we can finally get our offensive line clicking next season, I'm almost positive we'll see a quantum leap in our passing game and a vast decrease in Palmer haters.
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