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Old 01-11-2005   #61
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Originally Posted by brickmantexanfan
2005 will be agreat year to be a Texans fan,I believe we have improved every year,that is my stand,has been my stand,and will be my stand until someone can prove me wrong,and proving me wrong would have to be the opposite of this definition of progress:pro·gress
Fine, I'm up to your "challenge":

J.J. Moses - Punt return average 2003 = 8.6 /Punt return average 2004 = 8.6
Kickoff return average 2003 = 22.1 / Kickoff return average 2004 = 22.1
No progression = no progress


Texans Sacks allowed / yds. - 2003 = 36/186.....2004 = 49/301

Texans Defense 3rd Down % (allowed) - 2003 = 40.1%.....2004 = 43.4%

Texans Defensive penalties / yds - 2003 = 96/767.....2004 = 123/979

Regression = no progress

The Texans overall record improved, no doubt, but are you really trying to convince us that the Texans played with the heart they did last year? They were far healthier this year than last, and did less with it, especially against some of the worst defenses in the league! I was appalled to see this team obviously "give up" this year in at least 1/4 of our schedule.

Thank goodness we've got free agency & another draft to look forward to.
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Old 01-11-2005   #62
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Originally Posted by disaacks3
Fine, I'm up to your "challenge":

J.J. Moses - Punt return average 2003 = 8.6 /Punt return average 2004 = 8.6
Kickoff return average 2003 = 22.1 / Kickoff return average 2004 = 22.1
No progression = no progress


Texans Sacks allowed / yds. - 2003 = 36/186.....2004 = 49/301

Texans Defense 3rd Down % (allowed) - 2003 = 40.1%.....2004 = 43.4%

Texans Defensive penalties / yds - 2003 = 96/767.....2004 = 123/979

Regression = no progress

The Texans overall record improved, no doubt, but are you really trying to convince us that the Texans played with the heart they did last year? They were far healthier this year than last, and did less with it, especially against some of the worst defenses in the league! I was appalled to see this team obviously "give up" this year in at least 1/4 of our schedule.

Thank goodness we've got free agency & another draft to look forward to.
ok thats your view,here is what i have right now:The Texans had 300 first downs, 63 more than a season ago. Their number of three-and-out series decreased by 27. Houston’s rushing game churned out 117.6 yards per contest, 14 more than in 2003. The Texans threw for 37 more yards per game

For the first time, Houston could boast both a 1,000-yard rusher and receiver. Running back Domanick Davis set club records with 1,188 yards and 13 touchdowns. Ditto wide receiver Andre Johnson, whose 79 catches, 1,142 yards and six touchdown receptions earned a trip to the Pro Bowl – a first for a Texans player on offense.

Houston improved from 31st in the league in total offense to 19th, averaging 52 yards more per outing.


Carr had easily his best season as a pro, setting career marks in yards (3,531), completion percentage (61.2) and passer rating (83.5). And for the first time in three seasons, he threw more touchdowns (16) than interceptions (14). Carr clearly has more command in the huddle, the product of absorbing the offense for 44 starts before his 26th birthday.

I have more if you want it.I think that is progress
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Old 01-11-2005   #63
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Originally Posted by disaacks3
FThey were far healthier this year than last, and did less with it, especially against some of the worst defenses in the league! I was appalled to see this team obviously "give up" this year in at least 1/4 of our schedule.
JMO, but this sentiment is more a result of expectation than reality. And while they faced some of the "worst" defenses the Texans also faced all the best offenses including Indy twice--if you are going to factor one in you have to factor both into evaluating the team.

On the stats you give--are you really saying PR & KR are serious indicators of progress/regression? Sacks I will give you and that is the #1 off-season issue to be addressed in some fashion IMO.

How about some serious stats though:

Scoring offense: 2003 15.9 ppg 29th, 2004 19.3 ppg 20th
Scoring defense: 2003 23.8 ppg 27th, 2004 21.2 ppg 16th
Turnover margin: 2003 -5 25th, 2004 +5 12th

At the end of the day turnovers are the single greatest stat indicator for winning and regardless of the yards produced or given up the score matters more. In all of these categories the Texans made significant strides forward.

Could they have played better this year?--sure. Let's put a healthy DD from the 2nd half of the season in with the pass protection the OL gave in the 1st half of the season that mysteriously dissappeared in the 2nd half, along with the D from the 2nd half of the year and the season would have turned out even better. But the fact that things could have gone even better doesn't mean there was no progress or that there was regression.
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Old 01-11-2005   #64
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Originally Posted by infantrycak
JMO, but this sentiment is more a result of expectation than reality. And while they faced some of the "worst" defenses the Texans also faced all the best offenses including Indy twice--if you are going to factor one in you have to factor both into evaluating the team.

On the stats you give--are you really saying PR & KR are serious indicators of progress/regression? Sacks I will give you and that is the #1 off-season issue to be addressed in some fashion IMO.

How about some serious stats though:

Scoring offense: 2003 15.9 ppg 29th, 2004 19.3 ppg 20th
Scoring defense: 2003 23.8 ppg 27th, 2004 21.2 ppg 16th
Turnover margin: 2003 -5 25th, 2004 +5 12th

At the end of the day turnovers are the single greatest stat indicator for winning and regardless of the yards produced or given up the score matters more. In all of these categories the Texans made significant strides forward.

Could they have played better this year?--sure. Let's put a healthy DD from the 2nd half of the season in with the pass protection the OL gave in the 1st half of the season that mysteriously dissappeared in the 2nd half, along with the D from the 2nd half of the year and the season would have turned out even better. But the fact that things could have gone even better doesn't mean there was no progress or that there was regression.
Post of the year!
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Old 01-11-2005   #65
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Originally Posted by infantrycak
JMO, but this sentiment is more a result of expectation than reality. And while they faced some of the "worst" defenses the Texans also faced all the best offenses including Indy twice--if you are going to factor one in you have to factor both into evaluating the team.

On the stats you give--are you really saying PR & KR are serious indicators of progress/regression? Sacks I will give you and that is the #1 off-season issue to be addressed in some fashion IMO.

How about some serious stats though:

Scoring offense: 2003 15.9 ppg 29th, 2004 19.3 ppg 20th
Scoring defense: 2003 23.8 ppg 27th, 2004 21.2 ppg 16th
Turnover margin: 2003 -5 25th, 2004 +5 12th

At the end of the day turnovers are the single greatest stat indicator for winning and regardless of the yards produced or given up the score matters more. In all of these categories the Texans made significant strides forward.

Could they have played better this year?--sure. Let's put a healthy DD from the 2nd half of the season in with the pass protection the OL gave in the 1st half of the season that mysteriously dissappeared in the 2nd half, along with the D from the 2nd half of the year and the season would have turned out even better. But the fact that things could have gone even better doesn't mean there was no progress or that there was regression.
Rock on!!

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Old 01-11-2005   #66
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Originally Posted by infantrycak
JMO, but this sentiment is more a result of expectation than reality. And while they faced some of the "worst" defenses the Texans also faced all the best offenses including Indy twice--if you are going to factor one in you have to factor both into evaluating the team.
The reality is that the Texans "gave up" in at least 4 games this year. If it's apparent to the coaches, the broadcasters, & the players, I'm on pretty safe ground in that part of my assessment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrycak
On the stats you give--are you really saying PR & KR are serious indicators of progress/regression? Sacks I will give you and that is the #1 off-season issue to be addressed in some fashion IMO.
I picked a few stats, with about 30 sec. worth of research, to dispute the "fact" that this team has done nothing but progress this year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrycak
Turnover margin: 2003 -5 25th, 2004 +5 12th

At the end of the day turnovers are the single greatest stat indicator for winning and regardless of the yards produced or given up the score matters more. In all of these categories the Texans made significant strides forward.
Using that logic, if turnovers are the most important factor, why weren't the Texans better than 7-9? We made a +10 change in TO margin, but only finished 2 games better?

Better yet, please explain why these teams made the playoffs with WORSE TO margins than the Texans: Atlanta, Minnesota, Denver, Green Bay & St. Louis. That 5/12 playoff teams. Conversely, 2 of the top 5 TO margin teams aren't in the playoffs.

Did the Texans make SOME progress this year? Of course they did! I still question why a team with significantly LESS injuries than the year before, gave up on themselves in so many games. That's an issue that needs to be addressed before we start picking up FA & signing any more draftees! If it's a coaching issue, or lack of trust between players / coaches, then it's a larger issue than the O-Line, or anything else.

I'm really NOT into doom & gloom, but I also refuse to "pump sunshine up the arse" to make some really bad items look rosy when they're not.
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Old 01-11-2005   #67
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Originally Posted by disaacks3
The reality is that the Texans "gave up" in at least 4 games this year. If it's apparent to the coaches, the broadcasters, & the players, I'm on pretty safe ground in that part of my assessment.
You mean when we set the 2004 record of holding teams scoreless in consecutive quarters? We must be a pretty powerful team if we gave up and did what no other team could do last season during this period of games. I'm sure you didn't mean last 4 games but I really didn't see us giving up.
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Old 01-11-2005   #68
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Originally Posted by Vinny
You mean when we set the 2004 record of holding teams scoreless in consecutive quarters? We must be a pretty powerful team if we gave up and did what no other team could do last season during this period of games. I'm sure you didn't mean last 4 games but I really didn't see us giving up.
Nope, I sure didn't mean LAST 4, I meant AT LEAST 4, which is exactly what I stated....

If you honestly didn't see the Texans "mail it in" on multiple occasions this year, I'd suggest you re-watch the game footage, it's gruesome. Please see @Denver, @Indy, @NYJ, Cleveland for further reference.
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Old 01-11-2005   #69
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Denver, Indy and the Jets are all playoff caliber teams. I don't perceive us as quitting as much as I saw better teams beat an average team. We got whooped by some good teams....just like lots of average teams do.
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Old 01-11-2005   #70
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Originally Posted by disaacks3
The reality is that the Texans "gave up" in at least 4 games this year. If it's apparent to the coaches, the broadcasters, & the players, I'm on pretty safe ground in that part of my assessment.
I don't recall a coach or player saying they gave up all year--played poorly, not as well as they should, etc. yes but not gave up. Broadcasters are people paid to fill time--one of the 610 am guys the other day said Joppru was the Texans worst draft pick the other day not because he hasn't played but because the Texans had no need for a TE--yeah, I am respecting their opinion.

Quote:
I picked a few stats, with about 30 sec. worth of research, to dispute the "fact" that this team has done nothing but progress this year.
Didn't realize your point was that not everything had progressed. Even so, if individual stats go down (identifying areas to work on) but the important ones, including the most important one W's v. L's goes up, I have to give the team as a whole a progress check mark. Is that different than what you are saying?

Quote:
Using that logic, if turnovers are the most important factor, why weren't the Texans better than 7-9? We made a +10 change in TO margin, but only finished 2 games better?
This isn't a matter of logic at all, it is a matter of fact--there is no single stat that better predicts the winner of a game than turnover margin in that game--a single +1 turnover margin in a game predicts the winner over 75% of the time which is way higher than 400 yd passers, 100 yd rushers, or any other stat I have seen. The Texans defied the odds a couple of times this year and lost anyway, but a +10 change is a huge improvement (especially considering starting the season 0-2 despite other pretty good stats but being -7 on TO's) and certainly contributed to the two extra wins this season.

Quote:
Did the Texans make SOME progress this year? Of course they did! I still question why a team with significantly LESS injuries than the year before, gave up on themselves in so many games. ... I'm really NOT into doom & gloom, but I also refuse to "pump sunshine up the arse" to make some really bad items look rosy when they're not.
I see insufficient evidence to conclude the Texans gave up on themselves but that is a subjective decision everyone gets to make. There are certainly plenty of areas needing serious improvement through conscientious study/work by players, coaching and personnel decisions for serious improvement next year. And I am not here to pump sunshine anywhere, but neither do I let high hopes become expectations, that become frustration when not met--not saying you in particular, but more to a lot of folks around here, especially the ones riding a high after Jax and a low after Cleveland.
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Old 01-11-2005   #71
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Originally Posted by disaacks3
...I still question why a team with significantly LESS injuries than the year before, gave up on themselves in so many games.
I think that's a significant point. In the previous seasons, you could point to games where the Texans overachieved. I don't think you can say that about this year’s team. They have the record their talent deserves.

My would be that the Texans suffered due to the inconsistent effort of some veterans. Some guys became complacent and underachieved. That can spill over into the younger players. I don't know for sure if the Texans agree with me, but I do know that Capers would talk about "consistency" after nearly every loss. And I don't think he was strictly pointing to the younger players ups & downs due to inexperience. As you suggested, this needs to be addressed by the Texans and soon. Determine whether these players can turnaround their effort and performances, or cut bait and go fishin' again.
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Old 01-11-2005   #72
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No the one unit that I still won't say gave up, but went through a huge inexplicable decline in the 2nd half of the off-season. Have no clue why that happened--at the same time they got the run blocking going they pulled out there pass blocking red capes.
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Old 01-11-2005   #73
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Originally Posted by Vinny
Denver, Indy and the Jets are all playoff caliber teams. I don't perceive us as quitting as much as I saw better teams beat an average team. We got whooped by some good teams....just like lots of average teams do.
That's part of the point I'm trying to make. We played BOTH SuperBowl contenders last year extremely close, but this year we get our "butts whooped"? I really think the guys last year played beyond what could be hoped for (given the IR stats). This years guys got down and then appeared to "Give Up". If this had happened only once, maybe twice, it wouldn't be as bothersome.

Oh well, everyone is entitled to their own read on this year & I did expect 7-9, so in some ways I'm NOT disappointed.

Wouldn't it be fun the have 'em come out "breathing fire" and play that way for 60 min. though?
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Old 01-11-2005   #74
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Run blocking is the "fun part" of being an offensive lineman. You get to be the aggressor. You're the hitter rather than the "hittee" (not a word, but it should be). Pass blocking is about technique, discipline, and consistency. It's about taking ownership. I'm concerned about the lack of ownership by some vets.
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Old 01-11-2005   #75
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Run blocking is the "fun part" of being an offensive lineman. You get to be the aggressor. You're the hitter rather than the "hittee" (not a word, but it should be). Pass blocking is about technique, discipline, and consistency. It's about taking ownership. I'm concerned about the lack of ownership by some vets.
Agreed, but why did the ownership degrade/stop in the 2nd half of the season? While it wasn't great in the 1st half it certainly went down with a very dramatic effect on Carr and the offense as you have pointed out.
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Old 01-11-2005   #76
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I sincerely hope the team makes the playoffs next season and if not at least they scare a few more people than this season. I'm satisfied with the little victories the team made this year, and yes I'm disappointed with the setbacks. I know that personnel is an issue for this team. The Texans lack depth on both lines, I had hoped that the off-season acquisitions the team had made in both free-agency and the draft would have lead to some improvement, but astoundingly both groups (in my opinion at least) underperformed. I don’t wish for David Carr to end up like Steve McNair; so beat up that he is considering retirement in his early thirties. Our return teams are a joke. I think the team has made strides in some very important areas and I think it is time to seriously address weaknesses. (offensive line anyone?)

On the plus side, the improvements the team made were spectacular. The combination of Carr, Johnson, and Davis is inarguably the one of the three best young offensive combos in the league. When this team was on this season they were unstoppable. And what about two wins over Tennessee this season? I had been wanting that day to happen since I found out Houston was getting a team and I plan to relish in it at least until August (if not longer). Then my wife and I get BullPen tickets for the Nov 28th game (her wedding gift to me, how about that!) and they come back from 21-3 to win by 10. Then, they go and win in Chicago, in December no less (no playoffs for you), and the very next weak make the Jags look like the expansion team in Jacksonville.

I know we lost to the Browns, lord, do I know it. But I like to think that we are going to be contenders next year. Overoptimistic? Maybe. But I don’t care.

Next season, we beat Indy!!!

BTW - This board rocks (so says the FNG)
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Old 01-12-2005   #77
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I think "The Team" has scared just about everybody because I don't think anyone takes them for granted anymore. As far as the playoffs go, I'd love to see "The Team" make them but I'd settle for 8-8 next year -- and that's a shame in a way because a win against Cleveland would have set the goal up a notch to 9-7 next year. But be that as it may, for them to make the playoffs, they would have to find some way to pass Denver or the Jets -- two teams that humiliated them this year on the road. Buffalo came within a game of the playoffs as well and the Ravens are still tough. Cincy is also coming into its own as well. They'd also have to keep it up against Jax and everybody else they beat out this year, including KC. That's a lot of teams they'll have to find a way of passing up as a fourth-year franchise. And that's a lot to ask and expect. Taking all of this into account, 8-8 would be just fine for me.
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Old 01-12-2005   #78
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Originally Posted by disaacks3
[b][u] This team played absolutely FLAT in 25% of its games this year - that sounds like a coaching issue to me.

Oh well, there's always next year.....
That is life in the NFL, part of the overal parity picture. That could be said of everyteam. A few teams (very few) managed to win some of their "flat" games.
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