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Old 06-28-2004   #21
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No, of course he's not the key to the season, but he has the potential to be
"a" key, or "one of the keys" to a vastly improved D. After all, OLB is where the action is at in the 3-4.
When they had the ceremony/press conference over the weekend for his contract signing I watched it a couple times on TV. They had a brief conver-
sation with him. He's very poised and confident and has a certain presence
about him. This is no kid coming out of college, this is a mature man.
And have seen some film, not much, but some of the Mini Camp where you get a glimpsh of him. He is real quick but seems to move very much under control.
I don't know, maybe we got something here.
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Old 06-29-2004   #22
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Babin is approximately 1.89% of the key to our season. no more, no less. and for the last time, Babs is a female singer with a large nose married to Charles Brolin, Babin is a LB.
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Old 06-29-2004   #23
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we have a 3-4 defense predicated on a pass rush. and linebacker is the biggest cog in that defense---they make the wheel turn. in the scheme of things babins role as a linebacker alone makes his performance on the field worth more then some of the other defensive starters...(namely safety : see matt stevens ,marlon mccree, and eric brown should u have any doubts. all sub par safetys). furthermore, babin is not just a linebbacker in this defense but an outside linebacker to boot. if he excells at his postion the diffrence on the field will be readily noticeable. at first because of his production and then because he frees up other players once offenses start gameplanning around him.

yes, this is a team sport and one player wont do it alone ,but one dominant player sure as hell can make a diffrence. if u disagree with that talk to a falcons fan.
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Old 06-29-2004   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powda
we have a 3-4 defense predicated on a pass rush. and linebacker is the biggest cog in that defense---they make the wheel turn. in the scheme of things babins role as a linebacker alone makes his performance on the field worth more then some of the other defensive starters
Where to start.

The main thing wrong with your statement, is that every player depends on the other players. Babins rush effectiveness, will depend on how well the front 3 stuff the run. The CB's, and S's will rely on the front 7 getting to the QB before the WR's can break free. This isn't basketball. You don't go out and get T-Mac and instantly improve.

The defense is just like an offense. The QB cant be good if, A: Front line doesn't block. And B: WR's don't get open. Use that logic on the defense.
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Old 06-29-2004   #25
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Well said DC. Keep on Rockin'.
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Old 06-29-2004   #26
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I think we all learned last year with our rash of injuries just how much we are a team. I was amazed and relieved by the players who stepped up last year from the practice squad. If we can do what we did last year without all of our "necessary" players - we can do just about anything.
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Old 06-29-2004   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulip
I think we all learned last year with our rash of injuries just how much we are a team. I was amazed and relieved by the players who stepped up last year from the practice squad. If we can do what we did last year without all of our "necessary" players - we can do just about anything.
What ever happend to Shantee Orr? He tore it up last year when he got a chance. And now I dont hear anything about him. He was playing great.
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Old 06-29-2004   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DC_ROCK
What ever happend to Shantee Orr? He tore it up last year when he got a chance. And now I dont hear anything about him. He was playing great.
He was a great surprise last year - I loved watching him play. It's great when players are patient, get their chance and make the most of it.

Ourlads has him listed on the depth chart behind Wong and Peek. I hope they have a spot for him this year. It was nice to see someone on this team actually sack the opposing quarterback.
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Old 06-29-2004   #29
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dc rock, please allow me to reiterate...


Quote:
Originally Posted by powda
linebacker is the biggest cog in that defense
now, as we all know, players at no postion in any defense are independent of the rest of the team. obviously a team can have 2 all-world cbs that dont amount to anything if the qb typically has 6+ seconds to make a throw.

thank you for clarifying what hopefully everyone here already knew.

what im suggesting is that certain schemes rely more on the performance of a particular position. our defense is predicated on rushing the qb. ( did u ever watch the steelers when d.c. was there? ) and where does this rush come from? cbs? safetys? ummmm no. the defensive line? well yes, but no one here is expecting double digit sacks from any one particular d-lineman on this team i hope. if so your in for a let down. truth of the matter is , whatever qb pressure the d-line adds is great and their expected to make the occasional push, but their biggest reponsibility in this defense is to stuff the run and FREE UP THE LINEBACKERS.

why?

because in this defense the linebackers play the key role. they provide coverage, they stuff the run, AND they rush the qb.

The defense is just like an offense. The QB is a "big cog" in every snap. while he cant do it alone, if he doesnt perform well the rest of the offense ( no matter how good ) will suffer accordingly a: open WR's wont get the ball. b: the defense can key on the rb because the qb is a minor threat. Use that logic on the defense.

Last edited by powda; 06-29-2004 at 07:19 PM.
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Old 06-29-2004   #30
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Quote:
whatever qb pressure the d-line adds is great and their expected to make the occasional push, but their biggest reponsibility in this defense is to stuff the run and FREE UP THE LINEBACKERS.
Nice case made for the d-line being the key to this defense (at least the front 7).
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Old 06-29-2004   #31
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thats like crediting a pawn who had to move sometime or another to free the queen---------who eventually produced checkmate.
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Old 06-29-2004   #32
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Interesting then, that we just paid 20 million for a couple of pawns (Walker and Smith).
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Old 06-29-2004   #33
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and how much money do we have invested in linebackers? and how many draft picks? and how long till babin and peek see their big payday once their established players?

draw?
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Old 06-29-2004   #34
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Quote:
and how much money do we have invested in linebackers?
Wong: 5 years - $14.2 million with a $4.2 million signing bonus
Sharper: still working on his Ravens contract - $6.1 million cap hit this year and next
Foreman: 5 years - 11.5 million including a $2.2 million signing bonus
Babin: 6 years 10 million with a $3 million signing bonus.

The only mega contract of the bunch is Sharper's and he will be a premium to re-sign. Wong could also get a little pricey after next season and is worth it only if he moves inside IMO.

Compare that to the D-line:
Walker: 6 years $37.2 million with a $11 million signing bonus (ouch)
Smith: 6 years $26.3 million with a $8.3 million signing bonus (ouch)
Payne: still working on his Jax contract - $4.2 million on the cap this year

In terms of contract value, the Texans have considerably more money invested in their three starting DLs (over 60 million) than they do in their four starting LBs (about 47 million remaining). That's skewed somewhat by where Sharper and Wong are in their contracts but it's still real.

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and how many draft picks?
Three this year and one last year. Before this year's selections of Babin, Anderson, and R. Orr, Antwan Peek was the only LB ever drafted by the Texans. Anderson and Orr's chances of making this team are questionable.

Quote:
and how long till babin and peek see their big payday once their established players?
Who knows? I guess that's a rhetorical question since they need to prove their worth over time. Babin has a six year deal so he's locked in until 2009 with a very reasonable rookie contract. Peek makes close to NFL minimum and his contract expires after next season when he could be eligible for RFA.

Bottom line is your pawn-queen analogy is way off. The D-line and the LBs work as a unit and are very interdependent in this system. Take a major part away from one, whether it be DL or LB, and the other suffers greatly. That should have been brutally obvious last season when we really had some pawns in there at DL. Using your analogy, the LBs should have still excelled with Steve Martin, Junior Ioane, and Jerry DeLoach as the front three (shudder).

Last edited by aj.; 06-29-2004 at 09:42 PM.
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Old 06-29-2004   #35
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I'm not worried about Babin. He seems to have that attitude that great LB's have. He will be good for many years. I just hope Robinson can play as well as well as Newman and Trufant did last year.
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Old 06-29-2004   #36
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particularly intresting that u should forget names like clemens. and while babin has a nice contract its still only a 1st time contract (as is Peek). also while u may comment on the fact that wong and sharpers contracts are skewered (perhaps u meant inflation?), you forgot to mention inflation. in the real world that amounts to maybe 3% a year. in the sports industry its much higher. 66% of our starting defensive line was signed at this years going rate----at a time ,i might add ,when the market was willing to bare more then ussual due to the lack of quality defensive lineman available. if right now all of our defensive lineman we're on the open market (as 1 of them might as well have been and another was) i think they would all garner more then your average defensive linemen ,because in truth i think we have an above average defensive line now (for our system at least). i do not think we have a better then average group of linebackers. no, our defensive line dosent have incredible sack numbers ,but their production otherwise is better then par...foreman on the otherhand is not a better then average player. you forgot to mention that as well. when you account for the fact that foreman is only average ,babin is on a first time contract, inflation (sharper and wong on outdated contracts), and what the market bares (what positions are in quanity and scarce on the contract year), i'll happily side the way i do.

its not my intention to get into a financial dispute with you as i fully understand im outgunned against your incredible knowledge of money in the nfl. i respect your contributions to this site as well as hpf. thank you. but, while my pawn/queen analogy may be offbase in terms of money ,i do not feel thats the case on the field. the defensive line is a means by wich the linebackers can be succesfull no doubt. but the 3-4 defense ,in a scheme based solely on qb pressure, will not inherit any amount of respect until the linebacking core is legitamate. linebackers (in general) do make our system effective. babin is a part of that. lookback to the steelers and panthers. opposing teams didnt gameplan against the defensive line...they gameplanned against players like kevin green, lamar lathon, chad brown, and greg loyd for good reason. those linebackers made the defense fierce. they made the wheels turn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aj.
Take a major part away from one, whether it be DL or LB, and the other suffers greatly. That should have been brutally obvious last season when we really had some pawns in there at DL. Using your analogy, the LBs should have still excelled with Steve Martin, Junior Ioane, and Jerry DeLoach as the front three (shudder).
i dont fully disagree with that ,but consider we also had the second worst secondary statistically in the nfl. and...as i mentioned, only an average linebacking core.


as for my mentioning the texans dedicating far more draft picks to the linebackers rather then the defensive line? wether they make the team or not its meant to illustrate a point: the texans understand what makes their defense succesfull. we needed depth in the linebacking core ,and the texans drafted players to fill that need. we needed depth in the defensive line ,and the texans signed undrafted free agents.

Last edited by powda; 06-29-2004 at 11:57 PM.
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Old 06-30-2004   #37
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I think it's worth noting that the defense went from 16th in the league to 31st last year. While we did lose Glenn for several games and lost posey, we did replace stevens with mcree. Despite the differences I don't think anyone will disagree that the DL injuries played the biggest factor in our defense's plummet down the rankings.

I disagree with the notion that 3-4 DLinemen are somehow less important in our scheme. I think this is a myth due to the fact that they typically rack up fewer stats then a 4-3 linemen. Fewer stats does not mean less value. The front 7--really the entire 11--act as a unit and the saying 'you're only as strong as your weakest link' is very applicable to defense in the NFL.
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Old 06-30-2004   #38
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Quote:
particularly intresting that u should forget names like clemens.
I forgot about Clemons because he was released May 14.

Quote:
also while u may comment on the fact that wong and sharpers contracts are skewered (perhaps u meant inflation?),
I didn't say they were "skewered," I said their numbers appear skewed in the comparison because of where they are in their contracts, i.e., they are in the final years of older contracts vs. the beginning years of newer fatter contracts like Walker and Smith (as both of us pointed out).

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we needed depth in the linebacking core ,and the texans drafted players to fill that need. we needed depth in the defensive line ,and the texans signed undrafted free agents.
The Texans signed two undrafted free agents at DL this year (Pili and Renteria) and neither has a very good chance to make the team unless there's injury issues again. After they signed Walker and Smith to veteran free agent contracts, DeLoach and Sears became backups. Ioane was already here as depth, as was Terrance Martin, Jason Davis and Jeremy Slechta. They still need one more guy to shore up depth IMO, especially at backup NT. Possibly a late camp cut from another team.

The Texans had only drafted one LB in two years with a realistic chance of making the team so it was time for them to look for an impact guy this year (some years, they just aren't there). They also signed a couple of undrafted free agent LBs as well (Marcus Bell and Anthony Dunn). In 2002, they drafted two DL's (Charles Hill early and Howard Green late) and neither made the team.

To this day, three years in, the vast majority of their defensive roster (at all positions) consists of players acquired through veteran free agency or the expansion draft (9 of 11 starters). The only projected starters acquired through the college draft are one LB and one DB drafted this year. That's just the way they close to fill the defensive roster, as opposed to the offense which is college draft heavy.

Quote:
while my pawn/queen analogy may be offbase in terms of money ,i do not feel thats the case on the field.
Using that logic we just terrribly overpaid a couple of d-linemen where we could have gotten by with much lesser talent (like Sears and DeLoach as starters maybe?). That's where we disagree. You're entitled to your opinion, I just don't see it that way. Good debate.

Last edited by aj.; 06-30-2004 at 07:17 AM.
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Old 06-30-2004   #39
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Here is the sack production for 2002 (16th D) and 2003 (31st D):

DL 2002 - 9.5
DL 2003 - 3.5

LB's 2002 - 20
LB's 2003 - 14

DB's 2002 - 4.5
DB's 2003 - 1.5

Looks like a ripple effect straight on thru the D from the loss of Walker & Payne IMO. DL went from good 3-4 pressure up the middle by Payne and great pressure by Walker to no pressure resulting in a harder time for the LB's to get to the QB and combined with Glenn being injured making it harder for the DB's to come on blitzes. Seems to me that this is an argument over how to pronounce potato. If the DL isn't good enough to create pressure the LB's will not be freed up to make plays. If the LB's aren't good enough to make something of the pressure a DL gives them then the pressure is worthless. A 3-4 still has a front seven that has to pressure the QB--not 4 LB's and 3 schmoes that people just have to run around.


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but consider we also had the second worst secondary statistically in the nfl.
But consider that it wasn't the secondaries fault--it was the failure of the front seven to provide any QB pressure.
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Old 06-30-2004   #40
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Have you noticed that the Patriots, a team that plays the 3-4 the majority of the time, have spent 1st round picks on DL the last few years? Have you also noticed the success this defense has had?

Did you see what Ted Washington did last year when he played NT for the Pats? He didn't get many tackles or sacks but he manhandled the guys in the middle and freed up the LB's to roam free.

NT Casey Hampton does the same thing for the Steelers. He is the cog in the middle.

Bottom line is that if you don't have some good guys up front, the LB's are worthless.
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