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Old 12-13-2008   #1
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Default Cover Vs Man

I know that we're now supposed to be playing more one-on-one "man." However, I've noticed commonly, and TOO commonly in even crucial stop situations where the opponent just needs 3-5 yds for a 1st down, our corners are lined up 10 yds off their man. A majority of these cases, the opponent converts to 1st down on a short out or curl. What's with this? I know our corners aren't calling where they line up. And I feel that this formation accounts for a significant factor why teams seem to come back on us in the 3rd and 4th quarters. What's with this? I know our corners aren't calling where they line up.
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Old 12-13-2008   #2
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Default Re: Cover Vs Man

Yup--keeps happening and it is inexplicable IMO. What I really want to know is who is calling that coverage, Smith or Hoke? If it is Smith against Hoke's advice then fire him. If it is Hoke with Smith's assent, fire them both.
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Old 12-13-2008   #3
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Default Re: Cover Vs Man

Yea, we did the same thing last year. It's the main reason I want a new defensive coordinator. RS puts the secondary in bad/weird positions pretty often. I never understood the hybrid SS/FS for both safety positions either. I'm not sure this is Hoke's fault. I don't think he controls the positioning of the corners.
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Old 12-13-2008   #4
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Default Re: Cover Vs Man

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Originally Posted by TexansSeminole View Post
I never understood the hybrid SS/FS for both safety positions either.
They want the safeties to be okay at everything but not good at anything...

Probably why none of our safeties ever really make plays. As far as their coverages go they usually seem to be too far down the field to man cover, any zone they run usually just means stand back until you see the guy with the ball and go try to tackle him.

As far as the corners lining up 10 yards off on 3rd and 6...I just don't know what to say about that anymore. It's just time for a new DC. It's been time.
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Old 12-13-2008   #5
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Default Re: Cover Vs Man

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
Yup--keeps happening and it is inexplicable IMO. What I really want to know is who is calling that coverage, Smith or Hoke? If it is Smith against Hoke's advice then fire him. If it is Hoke with Smith's assent, fire them both.
And by that rationale, shouldn't Kubiak be held accountable as well?

Doesn't the DC also need the HC's assent?
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Old 12-13-2008   #6
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Default Re: Cover Vs Man

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Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger View Post
I know that we're now supposed to be playing more one-on-one "man." However, I've noticed commonly, and TOO commonly in even crucial stop situations where the opponent just needs 3-5 yds for a 1st down, our corners are lined up 10 yds off their man. A majority of these cases, the opponent converts to 1st down on a short out or curl. What's with this? I know our corners aren't calling where they line up. And I feel that this formation accounts for a significant factor why teams seem to come back on us in the 3rd and 4th quarters. What's with this? I know our corners aren't calling where they line up.
They need to play closer up on all three downs but even more so on third and short because that is when most teams run those short out or curl plays to pick up those few yards that they need to pick up the first down.
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Last edited by gary; 12-13-2008 at 04:15 PM.
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Old 12-13-2008   #7
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Default Re: Cover Vs Man

I played CB my entire football life and I can tell you for sure this is on the defensive coordinator.

When you have a conservative defensive playcaller, he would rather guard against the fade and leave the slants open so that his CBs don't get beat deep.

It makes absolutely no sense. We give up 3rd down conversions on short passes all the time because our coaches are so afraid of moving our CBs up only to get beat deep on a double move or a fade.

When I played, my coach would constantly try to move me 10-12 yards deep on 3rd and 5. I would just pretend I couldn't hear him and stay where I was. You can get away with that in high school and college, if you don't don't play by their rules in the pros, you're gone.

It's an obvious sign that Smith has no confidence in his CBs.
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Old 12-13-2008   #8
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Default Re: Cover Vs Man

If it is all on the DC then RS better be gone at the end of the season.
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Last edited by gary; 12-13-2008 at 04:51 PM.
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Old 12-13-2008   #9
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Default Re: Cover Vs Man

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Originally Posted by TexansFanatic View Post
And by that rationale, shouldn't Kubiak be held accountable as well?

Doesn't the DC also need the HC's assent?
Sometimes. I know that Kubiak isn't calling the defensive plays or how the coverage schemes are going to act. Now if our coach was Bill Cowher, oh yeah you know it would be on his head.
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Old 12-13-2008   #10
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Default Re: Cover Vs Man

Man press all the time!
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Old 12-13-2008   #11
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Default Re: Cover Vs Man

how have we done on 3rd down since dunta went back to cb1 and (presumably when) we went back to man? i dont have any stats but it seems we're quite good the last 3 weeks
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Old 12-13-2008   #12
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Default Re: Cover Vs Man

Quote:
Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger View Post
I know that we're now supposed to be playing more one-on-one "man." However, I've noticed commonly, and TOO commonly in even crucial stop situations where the opponent just needs 3-5 yds for a 1st down, our corners are lined up 10 yds off their man. A majority of these cases, the opponent converts to 1st down on a short out or curl. What's with this? I know our corners aren't calling where they line up. And I feel that this formation accounts for a significant factor why teams seem to come back on us in the 3rd and 4th quarters. What's with this? I know our corners aren't calling where they line up.
This is just a SWAG but IMHO, its because our CBs are relatively small and cannot effectively jam WRs of decent size and/or strength.

So the question is, is it better to try and jam then fail, and possibly get beat deep OR do you play back a few yds and let the CBs keep the play in front of them and make the tackle (hopefully).

Our conservative coaching staff mostly always go with the latter choice - hoping our "awesome" pass rush will cause the opposing QB to make a mistake.

In my little fantasy world, our CBs would recognize down and distance, pretend to play off the WR, and jump those short yardage curls and outs for pick six's.
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Old 12-13-2008   #13
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Default Re: Cover Vs Man

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Originally Posted by Maddict5 View Post
how have we done on 3rd down since dunta went back to cb1 and (presumably when) we went back to man? i dont have any stats but it seems we're quite good the last 3 weeks
I haven't seen any let up on this 10 yard cushion mentality in the last 3 weeks. As I pointed out in my initial post, despite the fact that we have won, we have consistently "lost ground" in the 3rd and 4th quarters in significant part to using that approach. It makes no sense at all.

When the CB's play that far off the receivers, beside giving up easy yardage, it takes the threat of a CB blitz out of the play book for the most part, and essentially fails to keep the O "honest" for that possibility.
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Old 12-13-2008   #14
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Default Re: Cover Vs Man

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Originally Posted by ObsiWan View Post
This is just a SWAG but IMHO, its because our CBs are relatively small and cannot effectively jam WRs of decent size and/or strength.

So the question is, is it better to try and jam then fail, and possibly get beat deep OR do you play back a few yds and let the CBs keep the play in front of them and make the tackle (hopefully).


Our conservative coaching staff mostly always go with the latter choice - hoping our "awesome" pass rush will cause the opposing QB to make a mistake.

In my little fantasy world, our CBs would recognize down and distance, pretend to play off the WR, and jump those short yardage curls and outs for pick six's.

ObsiWan,

It really doesn't take a large, strong CB to effectively jam big, strong WRs. It just take a split second of messing up their timing.


And giving them 10 yds, as we've seen many times certainly has not avoided our CBs from getting beaten. But it sure has consistently given the O easy 1st downs.......and just as effective trots down the field.
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Old 12-13-2008   #15
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Default Re: Cover Vs Man

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Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger View Post
ObsiWan,

It really doesn't take a large, strong CB to effectively jam big, strong WRs. It just take a split second of messing up their timing.


And giving them 10 yds, as we've seen many times certainly has not avoided our CBs from getting beaten. But it sure has consistently given the O easy 1st downs.......and just as effective trots down the field.
I know the jam is as much about technique as it is about size. But do you think really our guys have either the size or technique to do it effectively. I've seen them whiff on attempted jams many times then have to play catch-up to the WR. I just think our conservative coaching approach would rather not take getting beat deep on a whiffed jammed.
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Old 12-13-2008   #16
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Default Re: Cover Vs Man

Still the amount of space they give up way too much.
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Old 12-13-2008   #17
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Default Re: Cover Vs Man

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Originally Posted by ObsiWan View Post
I know the jam is as much about technique as it is about size. But do you think really our guys have either the size or technique to do it effectively. I've seen them whiff on attempted jams many times then have to play catch-up to the WR. I just think our conservative coaching approach would rather not take getting beat deep on a whiffed jammed.

If it's technique, we have yet another reason to thank our coaching staff.
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Old 12-13-2008   #18
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Default Re: Cover Vs Man

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Originally Posted by Maddict5 View Post
how have we done on 3rd down since dunta went back to cb1 and (presumably when) we went back to man? i dont have any stats but it seems we're quite good the last 3 weeks
GREAT question! some stat guy/gal break it down for us please
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Old 12-13-2008   #19
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Default Re: Cover Vs Man

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Still the amount of space they give up way too much.
I'm not disputing that. I was just hazarding a guess as to why it happens. Until the DBs get coached up more and get better technique like CNNND says, we'll most likely continue to play back.
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Old 12-13-2008   #20
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Default Re: Cover Vs Man

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Man press all the time!
NO! when you do that, things happen like what we did to GB on that final drive. The only reason OD gets wide open and picks up 25 yards on that play is because we knew to expect man coverage and we exploited it...

Mixing and disguising coverage is the key and we finally started doing some of it. Let's hope it continues. Dunta's interception last week was directly a result of giving a man look but falling into a zone. Watch the tape!
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