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Old 01-07-2005   #41
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as much as I like McKinney, I feel he is an undersized Center.. and I can see why David doesn't step up in the pocket...he can't step up..and to me, if the center can't hold his own, the whole line is messed up because we have to shift a guard to help him, a tackle to take the guards original person and then a TE to take the tackles original person.. domino effect..
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Old 01-07-2005   #42
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Originally Posted by trijcomm
but you can't blame those sacks on individuals.
yes you can, when a line does its job, and one individual doesnt, then the rest of the line has to compensate for the unreliable parts...an offensive line, even in zone blocking, needs to gel together to be able to know how to pick up blitzes etc, however when the ball is hiked, and u pick up a man you need to block, and you dont, that falls under an individual performance...not the OL...and that poor individual performance is not always about poor coaching, sure there are some things a coach can teach, however, at the end of the day, athleticism and talent are what matter..you can have the greatest coaches in the world coaching them, but that can only get them so far, until athletisism needs to kick in
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Old 01-07-2005   #43
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yes you can, when a line does its job, and one individual doesnt, then the rest of the line has to compensate for the unreliable parts...an offensive line, even in zone blocking, needs to gel together to be able to know how to pick up blitzes etc, however when the ball is hiked, and u pick up a man you need to block, and you dont, that falls under an individual performance...not the OL...and that poor individual performance is not always about poor coaching, sure there are some things a coach can teach, however, at the end of the day, athleticism and talent are what matter..you can have the greatest coaches in the world coaching them, but that can only get them so far, until athletisism needs to kick in
It is impossible for any fan to know what individual isn't "doing his job" because only the coach knows what the assignments are. Thus, a fan cannot assess blame and evaluate linemen since they don't know when a OL did or did not successfully perform a task. Pass protection and run blocking are a true team/unit effort. The whole unit has to mesh and gel for the thing to work. When you are talking offensive line play, coaching is not simply a matter of teaching. It's a matter of getting the line to work together. Knowing the intricacies of line play, I would attribute it more to playing as a unit than individual poor performances. And that is the coach's responsibility. Coaching line play is the toughest and most misunderstood as well as most underrated jobs in all of football because you've got to get almost half a dozen people to work together and fulfill team assignments and goals rather than individual ones. Contrast this to the QB and RB coaches who basically only have one guy they have to worry about. After all, when Dan Marino was passing out those gloves, he gave them to the whole offensive line -- not just specific individuals. That's because he knew that the entire line had to work as a cohesive unit or he was toast.
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Old 01-07-2005   #44
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Originally Posted by trijcomm
It is impossible for any fan to know what individual isn't "doing his job" because only the coach knows what the assignments are. Thus, a fan cannot assess blame and evaluate linemen since they don't know when a OL did or did not successfully perform a task.
That's just silly. When Dwight Freeney speed rushes around Wand who has no TE support, it is pretty clear that the guy assigned to Freeney is not Wade or anyone else on the OL not named Wand. Barring an assumption that the Texans' players are commonly coming off the line and hitting the wrong folks just watch who they hit and you can see who they are assigned to stop and then judge whether they successfully stop them. The fact that there is some uncertainty in the system doesn't mean you just throw your hands up in the air and go awe shucks the OL sucks.
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Old 01-07-2005   #45
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The Texans have spent a second on Pitts(could of had Portis) a third on Weary and Wand.They signed Mcinney,Wiegert,and Wade who were solid players. Hmmm could another team make a solid unit out of these guys ?Now they will not allow Pendry to leave.So they like the OL coach , what gives?
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Old 01-07-2005   #46
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That's just silly. When Dwight Freeney speed rushes around Wand who has no TE support, it is pretty clear that the guy assigned to Freeney is not Wade or anyone else on the OL not named Wand. Barring an assumption that the Texans' players are commonly coming off the line and hitting the wrong folks just watch who they hit and you can see who they are assigned to stop and then judge whether they successfully stop them. The fact that there is some uncertainty in the system doesn't mean you just throw your hands up in the air and go awe shucks the OL sucks.
No, it's not silly. Schemes change every play. And where was the RB when Feeney got through? Why wasn't he picked up? There is uncertainty in this because you don't really know who's assigned to who from play to play. You seem to love to place the blame at somebody's doorstep, but line play is truly a team game that has everything to do with cohesion and is impossible to judge on an individual basis.
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Old 01-07-2005   #47
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Schemes change every play. And where was the RB when Feeney got through?
Still silly. Your assertion was fans can't judge lineplay because things change too much from play to play. While it is true things change, fans can look at individual plays and determine who got beat other than completely boneheaded plays where the RB is told to block and chooses not to--like that happens much.

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You seem to love to place the blame at somebody's doorstep, but line play is truly a team game that has everything to do with cohesion and is impossible to judge on an individual basis.
Ummm, no it is called evaluating what is wrong and how to improve upon it. It is the job of Casserly, Capers and their staffs. I guarantee when Casserly asks Capers what they need to do in the off-season to improve the OL and whether someone needs to be upgraded Capers doesn't turn around and say it, "is impossible to judge on an individual basis."

Fans on MB's talk about the same things. Yes stats don't paint a complete picture, yes the game is complex, but it isn't so Zen-like and indivisable that evaluations can't be made.
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Old 01-07-2005   #48
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Ummm, no it is called evaluating what is wrong and how to improve upon it. It is the job of Casserly, Capers and their staffs. I guarantee when Casserly asks Capers what they need to do in the off-season to improve the OL and whether someone needs to be upgraded Capers doesn't turn around and say it, "is impossible to judge on an individual basis."

Fans on MB's talk about the same things. Yes stats don't paint a complete picture, yes the game is complex, but it isn't so Zen-like and indivisable that evaluations can't be made.
Remember what McNair said? No big changes will be made on the OL but Carr will be protected. If no major upgrades in the line are being made, yet the OL obviously had problems this year, do you think it's possible that they aren't seeing it on an individual basis? There are NO stats that paint ANY kind of picture regarding offensive linemen on an individual basis. The only thing you can really do is look at it as a whole and say, "Gee, they allowed six sacks to a team that had 26 the entire year. The pass protection stinks." That would be true. But you can't begin to assess blame for those sacks on an individual basis because, like I've said, only the coaches know for sure who blew a blocking assignment and what broke down to cause those failures. It's not zen -- it's just common sense.
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Old 01-07-2005   #49
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It's not zen -- it's just common sense.
Yeah, it is common sense--when I see a DT plow through McKinney and sack Carr on step 2 of a 3 step drop I know it wasn't Wand or Wade's fault.
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Old 01-07-2005   #50
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Yeah, it is common sense--when I see a DT plow through McKinney and sack Carr on step 2 of a 3 step drop I know it wasn't Wand or Wade's fault.
The entire Browns DL had Carr on the run the entire afternoon. To point your finger and say, "McKinney is to blame!" is very simplistic.
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Old 01-07-2005   #51
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The entire Browns DL had Carr on the run the entire afternoon. To point your finger and say, "McKinney is to blame!" is very simplistic.
Do you understand the concept of watching each play through a game, evaluating what happened on that play and keep track throughout the game to gain an overall impression of who did well and who did poorly? Saying oh my god it is all just so complex and changes happen we can't evaluate anything is what is simplistic.
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Old 01-07-2005   #52
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Do you understand the concept of watching each play through a game, evaluating what happened on that play and keep track throughout the game to gain an overall impression of who did well and who did poorly? Saying oh my god it is all just so complex and changes happen we can't evaluate anything is what is simplistic.
Yes, I understand -- I understand I can evaluate a poorly thrown or well thrown pass thrown by David Carr because that's all a QB's responsibility. If David Carr goes back to throw and, without being rushed, throws five straight passes into the ground, you can pretty easily blame that on Carr. But there is NO WAY you can know what the blocking assignments for a particular linemen are unless you are the coach. There is no way you can know who is responsible for a sack from play to play or who missed who in regards to a blocking assignment. Now THAT'S simple -- to understand, that is.
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Old 01-07-2005   #53
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But there is NO WAY you can know what the blocking assignments for a particular linemen are unless you are the coach. There is no way you can know who is responsible for a sack from play to play or who missed who in regards to a blocking assignment. Now THAT'S simple -- to understand, that is.
BS, it is called game film. You tell me, Texans line up with 4 WR's, no back and TE on Wade. Wand comes off the ball into the DE and Pitts comes off the ball into the DT. Wand gets beat to the outside by the DE. The only way that is not Wand's fault is if you assume Pitts is too stupid to remember who to hit. Yeah it is a possibility, but is one that will happen so infrequently that it is stupid not to assume it away and refuse to make the judgment that Wand got beat. The assignments in pass protection are a lot more tranparent than you make them out to be.
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Old 01-07-2005   #54
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Yes, I understand -- I understand I can evaluate a poorly thrown or well thrown pass thrown by David Carr because that's all a QB's responsibility.
What if the receiver ran the wrong route? Maybe you judge the QB too harshly, because only coaches know what routes the receivers are supposed to run.

You can use this type of thinking for any position on the field.
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Old 01-07-2005   #55
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What if the receiver ran the wrong route? Maybe you judge the QB too harshly, because only coaches know what routes the receivers are supposed to run.

You can use this type of thinking for any position on the field.
Not if he does it five times to an open receiver. Plus, there are stats that do legitimately indicate the success of a QB. This is not true for a lineman. Why? Because it's impossible to create ANY stat to judge an individual who is part of a unit like an offensive line. Penalties and sacks allowed by individuals indicate nothing about the success of an individual cog of any OL. It has much more to do with cohesion than who allowed a sack.
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Old 01-07-2005   #56
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BS, it is called game film. You tell me, Texans line up with 4 WR's, no back and TE on Wade. Wand comes off the ball into the DE and Pitts comes off the ball into the DT. Wand gets beat to the outside by the DE. The only way that is not Wand's fault is if you assume Pitts is too stupid to remember who to hit. Yeah it is a possibility, but is one that will happen so infrequently that it is stupid not to assume it away and refuse to make the judgment that Wand got beat. The assignments in pass protection are a lot more tranparent than you make them out to be.
The only ones who can really assess "game film" are the coaches who know the assignments. No, the assignments in pass protection are NOT all that transparent -- especially when you are assessing blame. Perhaps the offensive lineman was only supposed to hold the guy up for a second or two before moving off to another assignment and then perhaps it was somebody else's job to pick the same guy up. How do you know -- unless you're the coach? Perhaps the QB held on to the ball too long. Perhaps it really was somebody else's guy to pick up. There are a myriad of possibilities that exist when it comes to assessing blame on individuals within the offensive line and only the coaches know for sure. That's why line play succeeds and fails when the unit succeeds or fails. They MUST play together or the whole thing falls apart. When you start assessing blame on individuals when you are ignorant of the blocking schemes for that particular play -- which we all are, of course -- you are opening yourself up to making improper and bad job evaluations which are not fair to the individuals involved.
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Old 01-07-2005   #57
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Welcome to the MB Steve McKinney.
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Old 01-07-2005   #58
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Welcome to the MB Steve McKinney.
I was thinking more like Steve McKinney's dad.
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Old 01-07-2005   #59
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I was thinking more like Steve McKinney's dad.
If you think replacing McKinney will solve "The Team's" sack problems, then you are only kidding yourselves. In fact, you might be setting "The Team" back by at least a year if not two.
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Old 01-07-2005   #60
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The Texans have spent a second on Pitts (could of had Portis)
Pitts was our second second round selection, we passed on Portis twice. Every team could have had Portis. Last time I checked all 31 other teams passed on him including his college coach.
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Now they will not allow Pendry to leave.So they like the OL coach , what gives?
It's probably because he is a better coach than most of you guys think.
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