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Old 01-04-2005   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aj.
If you liked that one, here's two more from McKinney from his morning show:

1. "We're among the top 10 offensive lines in the NFL"

2. "There's one or two guys that play on the Colts OL who couldn't start for us."

No context required. He was on his soapbox and was dead serious.
If that's what Steve believes, then they are the #1 underachieving unit in the league. Congrats Steve, you are the centerpiece in the most underachieving line in the league.
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Old 01-04-2005   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grid
Thanks Nevikan, Edo.


Vick: 321 Attempts
181 Completions (56.4%)
2313 Yards (ave 7.21 per attempt)
14 TDs
12 Ints
902 Rushing yards
120 Rushing Attempts(7.5 per attempt)
QB Rating: 78.1

Carr 466 Attempts
285 Completions (61.2%)
3531 yards (7.58 per attempt)
16 TDs
14 Ints
299 Rushing Yards
73 Attempts (4.1 per attempt)
QB Rating: 83.5

2313 + 902 = 3215

3531 + 299 = 3830


SO.. Carr has more yards passing.. more completions.. more TDs.. a higher completion rating.. better QB rating etc..etc..etc..

You wanna know what the BIGGEST difference between Vick and Carr is? the Oline. Vick's Oline actually works. And ya wanna know why they are going to the playoffs? its not cause of Vick.. hes been AVERAGE.. its because they have a dominating and consistent defense.


So anyway. The stats show that im right.. Carr is the better QB.. Vick is the better scrambler.



here are the quotes after the game.

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/ne...php?PRKey=1483

alot of the other Texan's players were pretty down on themselves too.
Excellent post (and thread, too)! I was just getting ready to research those stats.

The only thing I disagree with you about wholeheartedly is the booing of Carr. He didn't deserve it. I agree with B. Miller 100% on that one.
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Old 01-04-2005   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aj.
If you liked that one, here's two more from McKinney from his morning show:

1. "We're among the top 10 offensive lines in the NFL"

2. "There's one or two guys that play on the Colts OL who couldn't start for us."

No context required. He was on his soapbox and was dead serious.
Man, I would have loved to have seen the look on Carr's face if he was listening to the radio at that time. I know that if I'd had been listening to the radio at the time, I would have yanked the phone off the wall to call in, and they would have used that 7-second button a lot.

That ****ing pisses me off that he had the audacity to say something like that.
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Old 01-04-2005   #24
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I disagree with booing Carr.. Carr himself didnt deserve it. I dont disagree with booing the team.

Billy doesnt understand that the fans ARE sticking with the team, Booing the team on Sunday was not the fans turning their backs on the Texans.. if they had turned their backs they simply would have left and not bothered to boo. They were booing cause they were disappointed and knew that the Texans were a better team than that. Carr specifically got booed because he is the face of the team. Carr understands that.


BTW.. the whole McKinney thing.. its all part of their new blocking scheme.. they have been training with Buddist monks.. its all about pacifism baby. They figure if they just let the rushers get by.. they will wear themselves out chasing Carr.. or hurt themselves tackling him. Once they are all sacked out and tired in the second half, we were supposed to come back on them.

honestly.. how can anyone say "we are a top 10 Oline" and "Carr had no more pressure than normal"... HE WAS SACKED SIX TIMES!!! Well.. when we cut McKinney, he at least has a promising future as Saddam Husseins chief advisor. "The Americans are not in Baghdad"
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Old 01-04-2005   #25
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Grid, excellent topic and great way to start it. I agree completely. Walker and Sharper have both taken their shots at the coaching. And Walker is on point to boldly deman management keep the talent here and not let it go away. Screw Wong's feelings. If Foley or Peek or Anderson or Orr make better ROLBs than Wong, then so be it. Kailee will just have to suck it uo, move to MLB or get benched or moved off the roster. Faggins shouldn't even get close enough to free agency to smell it. Lock him up before the Super Bowl is close.

Re: AJ -- I used to follow the Vikings really closely and when Moss was first drafted, he did little more than run a couple deep routes on every play. Eventually defenses started defending him a little better and Vikings fans were upset. The coaches were having Moss learn the other WR positions so that they could move him around more easily. But they couldn't just motion him like crazy until he learned his craft better. My point: I wonder if the Texans coaches have been teaching AJ how to run out of the slot and how to better run the crossing and underneath patterns? Because they can't keep with this unimaginative "line him up on the left side" ****. If AJ isn't in motion and being more creatively used next season, then I'm joing the Boo chorus line. It is better to let our speedy WRs catch a 5-10 yard pass and run 30 yards than try to complete a 40 yard pass for every big gain.
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Old 01-04-2005   #26
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On Foley -
I don't recall anyone being upset when he left last year, were they ? Did anybody see him being the best offseason acquistion ?

Grid - thanks for the Vick stats. I knew it was wrong when I read the post about Vick having a better arm than Carr.
Vick's lackluster passing may give Vince Young a chance in the NFL.
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Old 01-04-2005   #27
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While I think Steve McKinney overstated by a mile the line's ability I have to admit that I've never heard one single pro player in any sport being interviewed that said "you know I am not all that great and neither are my teammates". Of course he's going to talk them up and he's probably sincere. I imagine he feels he does a good job.

He's sort of one of the media boys of the Texans anyway. He has a radio show and he's also on one of the local channels after every game. I don't really watch the O line play much but the Texans certainly have issues there. The sacks this year are up from last year when I believe it was thought the O line was improving. I guess the general consensus now is they've regressed some this year.
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Old 01-04-2005   #28
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Originally Posted by Grid
I disagree with booing Carr.. Carr himself didnt deserve it. I dont disagree with booing the team.

Billy doesnt understand that the fans ARE sticking with the team, Booing the team on Sunday was not the fans turning their backs on the Texans.. if they had turned their backs they simply would have left and not bothered to boo. They were booing cause they were disappointed and knew that the Texans were a better team than that. Carr specifically got booed because he is the face of the team. Carr understands that.
That's cool. I must have misunderstood you the first time around, but I see where you are coming from.

But people were showing their discontent by leaving early, too. Beginning of the fourth saw a mass exodus towards the exits. I kept hoping for a "miracle" comeback (miracle because the team's attitude would have had to suddenly do a 180 degree turnaround) so all those that left would regret their decision. But no such luck.

I'm not sure who, specifically, deserved the boos, especially since the entire team came out flat. There was not an individual player that should be singled out, as the team flatlined and looked like they could care less to even be there, much less try to beat a 3-12 team.

It's going to be a long, long offseason after that sorry game.
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Old 01-04-2005   #29
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Steve McKinney and his pie hole.... HAHHAHAHAHAHA.... maybe his head has gotten beat one too many times..
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Old 01-04-2005   #30
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if that is the results for this year's Quarterbacks.. i think you guys left out the fact was that a couple of games Michael Vick didnt even play.. and basically every game Carr played.... that should add extra points to him... Michael Vick is PHENOMENAL!!!
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Old 01-04-2005   #31
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When is McKinney's contract up? That's one we don't have to re-sign.
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Old 01-04-2005   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grid
Thanks Nevikan, Edo.


Vick: 321 Attempts
181 Completions (56.4%)
2313 Yards (ave 7.21 per attempt)
14 TDs
12 Ints
902 Rushing yards
120 Rushing Attempts(7.5 per attempt)
QB Rating: 78.1

Carr 466 Attempts
285 Completions (61.2%)
3531 yards (7.58 per attempt)
16 TDs
14 Ints
299 Rushing Yards
73 Attempts (4.1 per attempt)
QB Rating: 83.5

2313 + 902 = 3215

3531 + 299 = 3830


SO.. Carr has more yards passing.. more completions.. more TDs.. a higher completion rating.. better QB rating etc..etc..etc..

You wanna know what the BIGGEST difference between Vick and Carr is? the Oline. Vick's Oline actually works. And ya wanna know why they are going to the playoffs? its not cause of Vick.. hes been AVERAGE.. its because they have a dominating and consistent defense.


So anyway. The stats show that im right.. Carr is the better QB.. Vick is the better scrambler.



here are the quotes after the game.

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/ne...php?PRKey=1483

alot of the other Texan's players were pretty down on themselves too.
I'm sorry I have no problems with your other comments but this one is just irritating me. To compare David Carr to Michael Vick and then state Carr is the better Qb and Vick is just a scrambler is either complete lunacy or downright homerism. If we're going by paper, both Billy Volek and Brian Griese had better seasons than Vick and Carr. Testaverde and K Collins had near similar numbers in passing yards. Does that mean they're more important to their teams or better qb's, ofcourse not. That's why stats are so deceiving, they don't measure a player's intangibles. Vick's worth is probably more valuable than the coach. When he plays, the Falcons chances of winning go way up, when the line breaks he makes something out of nothing, and if I'm not mistaken he's learning a new offense this season with a new coach coming off a serious injury. I also don't think 2300 passing yards and 900 rushing are average numbers for a QB. The defense has been good but they're not Baltimore, you can't throw Trent Dilfer in there and expect playoffs. I'm a big Carr fan and supporter, have been since Dallas vs. Houston year 1. But I also see what he can and cannot do. He's at his best when in the pocket or rolling to his right and scrambles when forced. Granted we don't get to see much of this due to line problems it's still too early to say Carr is the complete package and second coming of Vick.
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Old 01-04-2005   #33
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Well, we'll see what Vick is all about as a QUARTERBACK when he's in his 30's and his legs don't have the gas in them that they do now.

Wait until he's taken a few good Ray Lewis hits and can't run.

Then we'll see how great that arm of his is and what kind of pure QB he becomes. He's already said that it'll probably take him at least 10 years to learn the west coast offense, so it will be interesting to see what he's about when his RB-style is not available and he has to rely on all the QB wits he should be developing NOW instead of racking up rushing records.

I'm not hating on him, as I enjoy watching him play. But I'm not blind, either, and I neither believe that he represents the "new" QB style in the NFL (afterall, there is only ONE Vick, right), nor do I think he's the second coming of Jesus.

And I wonder how great he would be behind the sorry O-line that Carr has been cursed with this year.
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Old 01-04-2005   #34
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I for one like the idea of us re-signed Foley last year. I thought he play pretty good for us when he was in and looked forward to him eventually challenging Foreman. WE would have had Wong, Sharper, Foley, and Peek starting this year with Foreman and Polk as backups. That's not a bad lineup and instead of Babin (who I do like) we could have had a decent DL drafted last year. This is all hindsight but that scenario was very much in the works before Foley wasn't resigned and we drafted Babin.
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Old 01-04-2005   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coachdent
I think Dom Capers has done a fine job in putting together a solid expansion franchise together. However, after year three, there needs to be dynamic changes with the Texans for us to be a great team. Every fan dreams of a Super Bowl and I'm no different. However, the rhetoric that I hear coming from Capers in defense of the offensive philosophy is not one that has Super Bowl aspirations in mind.

Cleveland served as a perfect example of the wayward offensive philosophy. The Browns are a horrible football team, but even on the best of days, the Texan offense will keep a game close. How many weeks have we watched games being decided by 5 points either way? GREAT teams do not become great by eeking out nailbiters week after week. Without a high-powered attacking offense, we are forever going to be mired with 8-8 seasons. The NFL is too even to play the game this way.

With the new rules, passing the football is definitely the route that people need to go. Controlled passing, high percentage passing... much like that Carr did in college. The numbers on Andre Johnson being the 7th most thrown to receiver in the NFL are bogus. It is the ROUTES he is running! Throwing 5 jump balls to Andre is not successful football and it is not the way you try to ge the ball to him. This offense runs 75% of its plays through DD. They have no trouble getting him involved in the game. Yet we go entire games with nothing to #80.

Scrap the I formation. Please. We have no fullback and the fullback as we know it in the NFL is dead and gone. Get out of the dark ages. This also causes more problems from a zone running perspective because it bastar*izes the zone. Those interetested in the x's & o's of this can feel free to contact me.

We need to attack people offensively and defensively if we want to rise up the ladder. We can't just "hang around" in games and "be close" in the fourth quarter. Put some exclamation points on this team!

I agree with virtually all of that, although I will admit I don't understand the nuances of Zone blocking as well as you aappear too. Good post!

I heard Steve Mckinney this morning claim his line was top 10 material. If I would have been eating my Wheaties, I would have choked to death. I think Steve needs to retire and go shoot some more defenseless animals to put over his fireplace, and let's get a real center in here. Instead of arguing with the ref's he could bag a Zebra. That takes a real man.
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Old 01-04-2005   #36
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Originally Posted by The Wal-Mart
I'm sorry I have no problems with your other comments but this one is just irritating me. To compare David Carr to Michael Vick and then state Carr is the better Qb and Vick is just a scrambler is either complete lunacy or downright homerism. If we're going by paper, both Billy Volek and Brian Griese had better seasons than Vick and Carr. Testaverde and K Collins had near similar numbers in passing yards. Does that mean they're more important to their teams or better qb's, ofcourse not. That's why stats are so deceiving, they don't measure a player's intangibles. Vick's worth is probably more valuable than the coach. When he plays, the Falcons chances of winning go way up, when the line breaks he makes something out of nothing, and if I'm not mistaken he's learning a new offense this season with a new coach coming off a serious injury. I also don't think 2300 passing yards and 900 rushing are average numbers for a QB. The defense has been good but they're not Baltimore, you can't throw Trent Dilfer in there and expect playoffs. I'm a big Carr fan and supporter, have been since Dallas vs. Houston year 1. But I also see what he can and cannot do. He's at his best when in the pocket or rolling to his right and scrambles when forced. Granted we don't get to see much of this due to line problems it's still too early to say Carr is the complete package and second coming of Vick.

haha vick miswell become a running back, i dont see how you can say he is the better quarterback ??? Isnt a QBs job to throw the ball and HAND off to the running backs, if we are talking about SCRAMBLERS than vick is better !!!! If we talk about QBs and passing than Carr is the better QB ! Which he is.
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Old 01-04-2005   #37
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Hey Grid the biggest difference between Carr and Vick is that Carr will have to buy tickets to get in the playoffs this year and Vick is in them. To me stats don't matter. QB's don't win games teams do. What seems to me is that they don't have the want to's. They may want to win, but they don't take ownership/responsibility for their mistakes, and if you want to succeed you must frist fail, and I think that is because you appreciate success more if it takes you a couple of times to acheive your ultimate goal.I mean look at Marino, the only thing people remembered him for was the TD passing SINGLE season record, and the passing yards. How many SB rings does he have......but wait there's more now Manning has the record, and I'm pretty sure that his yards will be surpassed also. Records and statistics are like rules they are made to be broken or surpassed, but they can never take away the FACT that your TEAM won the SB. Maybe Carr is the better of the 2, and I am a big supporter of Carr, but what will people say if the Falcons win the Super Bowl? Will they say hey the Falcons put together a good year and they utilized every aspect of their team? Or will they say man I don't see how the Falcons won the Super Bowl with a QB that doesn't even have as good of stat's as a 3 year QB on a 7-9 team? I know you were just trying to state your point, but the fact of the matter is David Carr is at home licking his wounds whilee Michael Vick is doing what Good QB's do, and that playing in the playoffs. Make no mistake about this, I think Carr is the answer at QB for the Texans, but I just think that the freakin o-line forgot the damn question.

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Old 01-04-2005   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelBlueToro
When is McKinney's contract up? That's one we don't have to re-sign.
2006 but I sense a cap friendly restructure as early as this coming season. His cap number is in the 4 million area so that's a problem. Steve seems to be very much settled here and I think he will be easy to negotiate with when the time comes.
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Old 01-04-2005   #39
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Originally Posted by The Wal-Mart
David Carr isn't even in Michael Vick's league. That comparison is just way off. Vick sets his team up to win and single-handedly makes plays when things go wrong, he's a playmaker and the focal point of opposing defenses. I think Vick's arm is even a little stronger than Carr's. Carr is a pocket passer more comparable to Aikman than anyone else. Nothing wrong with that. He can be just as successful, only time will tell (next season hopefully). His rushing yards are a result of trying to salvage a busted play or running for dear life. But until Carr leads us to the playoffs or runs for 500+ yards he's no Vick or even similar to Vick.

xx x att comp pct yards ypa td int rate
vick 321 181 56.4 2313 7.21 14 12 78.1

carr 466 285 61.2 3531 6.75 16 14 83.5

vick has been in the league a year longer and is playing behind a better offensive line. they have won a lot of games this year but its mainly been the defense. vick is not yet the superstar quarterback everyone thinks he is. if it wasnt for his running ability he would be very ave.

Last edited by utahmark; 01-04-2005 at 08:37 PM.
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Old 01-04-2005   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markbeth
xx x att comp pct yards ypa td int rate
vick 321 181 56.4 2313 7.21 14 12 78.1

carr 466 285 61.2 3531 6.75 16 14 83.5

vick has been in the league a year longer and is playing behind a better offensive line. they have won a lot of games this year but its mainly been the defense. vick is not yet the superstar quarterback everyone thinks he is. if it wasnt for his running ability he would be very ave.
Yes, I've already seen the stats and responded to them. I don't want to turn this into a Carr bashing thread because I'm not a Carr basher. I like the guy and very much want him to succeed with the Texans. I was simply replying to the original statement that implied Carr can do all the things Vick can do, and that simply isn't true. Comparing Carr to Vick is like comparing apples to oranges. They both have different styles of play suited to their respective abilities. You're right, if Vick didn't have that athletic ability he would be average. But he does. Same thing goes for all the people that say Carr can do all these wonderful things if he only had a line. But he doesn't. You can only speculate. Vick has already proven himself to be a double threat, explosive player, and major contributor to his team. He does win games and the D holds their own. I think Carr can be a very special player in the near future, but as of now NO he's not as good as Vick.
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