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Old 11-15-2008   #21
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Default Re: Chronicles Justice "quantifies" size of Smith & Kubiaks FA mistakes

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Originally Posted by eriadoc View Post
Justice is a tool.

That said, the "big" free agent signings by this regime have not worked out. They seem to be far better at identifying guys that can outperform meager expectations than they are at identifying top talent that can play at all.

Good points. Why would you expect better performance from career backups just cause we sign 'em?
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Old 11-15-2008   #22
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Default Re: Chronicles Justice "quantifies" size of Smith & Kubiaks FA mistakes

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Originally Posted by TheRealJoker View Post
This is why I think the fans should STOP begging our team to make a ton of big FA signings!!! Imagine how badly we'd be in cap hell with nothing to show for it when we've got a team full of Weavers
You are absolutely right. We should just continue signing under performing backups and washed up veterans and give them exhorbitant money.....

Where's that sarcasm dealy?

Last edited by maddogmrb; 11-15-2008 at 10:59 AM. Reason: spelling...
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Old 11-15-2008   #23
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Default Re: Chronicles Justice "quantifies" size of Smith & Kubiaks FA mistakes

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Originally Posted by TheRealJoker View Post
Its pretty sad that we have to throw big FA $$ at these caliber players. We all keep waiting for the day that we can land a real "big fish" in FA but I guess that day wont come until we consistently reel in draft classes like the one we had in 06.

Mario, DeMeco, Winston, OD, Anderson....ahhh what a great draft

But sadly, the good teams pull in similar drafts consistently while we've only had one good draft top to bottom since our inception

Agreed .... I have not been and am not a Rick Smith fan. How many times have I seen people on this board post about his "genius" free agent signings, etc & I just want to know where they are?
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Old 11-15-2008   #24
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Default Re: Chronicles Justice "quantifies" size of Smith & Kubiaks FA mistakes

LOL at this thread.

We get the usual Justice and Chron bashing, but no one seems to disagree with what he has to say.

The guys that get signed off the street usually come in and produce almost immediately (A. Davis, Bulman, Cochran, Demps) while the "big-name" signings (Weaver, Reeves, Green) have just cashed checks.
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Old 11-15-2008   #25
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Default Re: Chronicles Justice "quantifies" size of Smith & Kubiaks FA mistakes

At this point drafting Amobi over Willis, beason, and Quinn is probably the biggest offseason mistake

Hate on Reeves all you want (and I will) but he is probably the second best DB on our roster besides Eugene Wilson
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Old 11-15-2008   #26
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Default Re: Chronicles Justice "quantifies" size of Smith & Kubiaks FA mistakes

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Originally Posted by The1ApplePie View Post
At this point drafting Amobi over Willis, beason, and Quinn is probably the biggest offseason mistake

Hate on Reeves all you want (and I will) but he is probably the second best DB on our roster besides Eugene Wilson
I'n not so hot on Quinn....but D Reeves is already one of the better CB's in the NFL and would be the best DB on our roster right now.
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Old 11-15-2008   #27
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Default Re: Chronicles Justice "quantifies" size of Smith & Kubiaks FA mistakes

Yep, forgot about Revis
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Old 11-15-2008   #28
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Default Re: Chronicles Justice "quantifies" size of Smith & Kubiaks FA mistakes

I think I just got Darrell Revis and Reeves all mixed up but I guess it's all the same basic point at the end of the day.
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Old 11-15-2008   #29
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Default Re: Chronicles Justice "quantifies" size of Smith & Kubiaks FA mistakes

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Originally Posted by TheRealJoker View Post
This is why I think the fans should STOP begging our team to make a ton of big FA signings!!! Imagine how badly we'd be in cap hell with nothing to show for it when we've got a team full of Weavers
don't forget Rosevelt Colvin
and Morlock Greenwood
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Old 11-15-2008   #30
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Default Re: Chronicles Justice "quantifies" size of Smith & Kubiaks FA mistakes

Richard justice is such a joke. Green was a known risk, but Weaver had all the credentials you look for in a veteran at the time of his signing. It's true we spent too much money on Green & Weaver, but let's take a look at all the veteran signings & trades by Rick & Gary (after January 26, 2006) before we crucify them. I'm sure I've missed some, but it's funny how some writers can make a sensational story out of a couple of mistakes.

BAD MOVES - With the exception of Green & Weaver, we haven't spent much on bad moves.

Michael Boulware (S) - I believe Babin was coming on strong.
$ Ahman Green (RB) - Broken down ol' War Horse.
$ Anthony Weaver (DE) - Huge disappointment at DE.
Chris Brown (RB) - Maybe he can turn it around, but looks like a bust.
Rosevelt Colvin (OLB/DE) - Was a solid signing that didn't work out.
Quinn Gray (QB) - Kind of wish we had kept him & traded Sage for the 3rd.
Samkon Gado (RB) - A stopgap move that didn't work out.
Eric Moulds (WR) - Never quite worked out.


GOOD MOVES

Matt Schaub (QB) - If not for his injuries, Matt would be a homerun trade.
André Davis (WR) - Homerun.
Will Demps (FS) - Homerun.
Joel Dreessen (TE) - He's a keeper.
Nick Ferguson (DB) - Solid DB.
Vonta Leach (FB) - Solid FB.
Sage Rosenfels (QB) - He's a solid backup QB.
Ephraim Salaam (LT) - Is a solid backup LT.
Matt Turk (P) - Homerun.
Kevin Walter (WR) - Homerun.
Eugene Wilson (DB) - Looks to be a homerun.
Jeff Zgonina (DT) - Has done everything he was brought in to do.
Jeb Putzier (TE) - I wouldn't call this a bad move. We just upgraded the position with OD.

THE JURY'S STILL OUT ON THESE MOVES

Chris Myers (C) - Starter, but I'm not real impressed so far.
Kevin Bentley (LB) - Looks good so far.
Mike Brisiel (G) - Adequate starter.
Tim Bulman (DE) - Still too early, but he's looking good.
Rashad Butler (OT) - I'm surprised he hasn't stepped up yet.
Ryan Moats (RB) - Looks good so far.
Jacques Reeves (CB) - He's a great cover corner, but needs to locate the ball more often.
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Old 11-15-2008   #31
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Default Re: Chronicles Justice "quantifies" size of Smith & Kubiaks FA mistakes

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Originally Posted by Hottoddie View Post
Richard justice is such a joke. Green was a known risk, but Weaver had all the credentials you look for in a veteran at the time of his signing. It's true we spent too much money on Green & Weaver, but let's take a look at all the veteran signings & trades by Rick & Gary (after January 26, 2006) before we crucify them. I'm sure I've missed some, but it's funny how some writers can make a sensational story out of a couple of mistakes.

GOOD MOVES

Matt Schaub (QB) - If not for his injuries, Matt would be a homerun trade.
André Davis (WR) - Homerun.
Will Demps (FS) - Homerun.
Joel Dreessen (TE) - He's a keeper.
Nick Ferguson (DB) - Solid DB.
Vonta Leach (FB) - Solid FB.
Sage Rosenfels (QB) - He's a solid backup QB.
Ephraim Salaam (LT) - Is a solid backup LT.
Matt Turk (P) - Homerun.
Kevin Walter (WR) - Homerun.
Eugene Wilson (DB) - Looks to be a homerun.
Jeff Zgonina (DT) - Has done everything he was brought in to do.
Jeb Putzier (TE) - I wouldn't call this a bad move. We just upgraded the position with OD.
Too many homeruns there pards.
Andre Davis...journeyman. Can't start for most teams.
Will Demps? journeyman. Wouldn't start for most teams.
Dreessen? eh, solid back up but could be replaced easily.
Ferguson? journeyman
Rosenfels? Averages a turnover a quarter...another journeyman
Turk? Better than our really lousy epansion kicker but was just another waiver wire guy who has been around a while...journeyman.
Walter? Traded for him, not a FA pick. Good job none the less.
Wilson? tweener who is a good depth player but isn't a great starter at any position.
Schaub so far is Chris Chandler without the nice long ball.

Who is the real difference maker? no one really...just a collection of average players who have enough skills to be a reserve on most teams, but nobody who is a long term starter outside of Leach, Schaub and Walter....and I'm not exactly sure if Schaub is going to make it past the MASH unit enough to count on him.
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Old 11-15-2008   #32
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Default Re: Chronicles Justice "quantifies" size of Smith & Kubiaks FA mistakes

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Too many homeruns there pards.
Andre Davis...journeyman. Can't start for most teams.
Will Demps? journeyman. Wouldn't start for most teams.
Dreessen? eh, solid back up but could be replaced easily.
Ferguson? journeyman
Rosenfels? Averages a turnover a quarter...another journeyman
Turk? Better than our really lousy epansion kicker but was just another waiver wire guy who has been around a while...journeyman.
Walter? Traded for him, not a FA pick. Good job none the less.
Wilson? tweener who is a good depth player but isn't a great starter at any position.
Schaub so far is Chris Chandler without the nice long ball.

Who is the real difference maker? no one really...just a collection of average players who have enough skills to be a reserve on most teams, but nobody who is a long term starter outside of Leach, Schaub and Walter....and I'm not exactly sure if Schaub is going to make it past the MASH unit enough to count on him.
Perhaps "Homerun" wasn't the appropriate term to be used, but neither was Justice labeling Gary & Rick's veteran moves as mistakes while omitting the good moves they've made. They were all solid moves that have made solid contributions to the team. These players will, at the very least, give us some quality depth in the future. If Justice would open his eyes he could see that the team is building through the draft. Eleven of our current starters came through the draft & if you add Dunta, C.C. Brown, & Diles to the mix, that'd be 14 starters with 9 of them being selected since Gary came on board. But, that's just my opinion.
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Old 11-15-2008   #33
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Default Re: Chronicles Justice "quantifies" size of Smith & Kubiaks FA mistakes

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Originally Posted by Hottoddie View Post
Richard justice is such a joke. Green was a known risk, but Weaver had all the credentials you look for in a veteran at the time of his signing. It's true we spent too much money on Green & Weaver, but let's take a look at all the veteran signings & trades by Rick & Gary (after January 26, 2006) before we crucify them. I'm sure I've missed some, but it's funny how some writers can make a sensational story out of a couple of mistakes.

BAD MOVES - With the exception of Green & Weaver, we haven't spent much on bad moves.

Michael Boulware (S) - I believe Babin was coming on strong.
$ Ahman Green (RB) - Broken down ol' War Horse.
$ Anthony Weaver (DE) - Huge disappointment at DE.
Chris Brown (RB) - Maybe he can turn it around, but looks like a bust.
Rosevelt Colvin (OLB/DE) - Was a solid signing that didn't work out.
Quinn Gray (QB) - Kind of wish we had kept him & traded Sage for the 3rd.
Samkon Gado (RB) - A stopgap move that didn't work out.
Eric Moulds (WR) - Never quite worked out.


GOOD MOVES

Matt Schaub (QB) - If not for his injuries, Matt would be a homerun trade.
André Davis (WR) - Homerun.
Will Demps (FS) - Homerun.
Joel Dreessen (TE) - He's a keeper.
Nick Ferguson (DB) - Solid DB.
Vonta Leach (FB) - Solid FB.
Sage Rosenfels (QB) - He's a solid backup QB.
Ephraim Salaam (LT) - Is a solid backup LT.
Matt Turk (P) - Homerun.
Kevin Walter (WR) - Homerun.
Eugene Wilson (DB) - Looks to be a homerun.
Jeff Zgonina (DT) - Has done everything he was brought in to do.
Jeb Putzier (TE) - I wouldn't call this a bad move. We just upgraded the position with OD.

THE JURY'S STILL OUT ON THESE MOVES

Chris Myers (C) - Starter, but I'm not real impressed so far.
Kevin Bentley (LB) - Looks good so far.
Mike Brisiel (G) - Adequate starter.
Tim Bulman (DE) - Still too early, but he's looking good.
Rashad Butler (OT) - I'm surprised he hasn't stepped up yet.
Ryan Moats (RB) - Looks good so far.
Jacques Reeves (CB) - He's a great cover corner, but needs to locate the ball more often.
A few missing off the top of my head:

Mike Flanagan, Brad Bedell, Jordan Black...

I'd say the "Bad" list is a little longer than shown. Some of the players are nothing more than forgettable, I guess.
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Old 11-15-2008   #34
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Default Re: Chronicles Justice "quantifies" size of Smith & Kubiaks FA mistakes

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Originally Posted by Runner View Post
A few missing off the top of my head:

Mike Flanagan, Brad Bedell, Jordan Black...

I'd say the "Bad" list is a little longer than shown. Some of the players are nothing more than forgettable, I guess.
Yeah, I forgot about Flanagan & Black. Bedell wasn't signed for much if I recall correctly. I guess the whole point of my post was to show that we've had quite a bit of success in free agency. We just suck when it comes to the big names.
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Old 11-16-2008   #35
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Default Re: Chronicles Justice "quantifies" size of Smith & Kubiaks FA mistakes

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Good points. Why would you expect better performance from career backups just cause we sign 'em?
It's all relative. Guys like Bulman, Maddox, and Cochran get opportunities here because our other players suck. If Travis Johnson did anything to live up to his draft position, Maddox would never have seen the field. Heck, even Thomas Johnson made a few plays at DT a couple years ago, and I don't even think he's in the NFL anymore. If Weaver and/or Babin had lived up to expectations, Bulman and Cochran would never had seen time on the field. We've never spent a 1st day draft pick on a safety that I can remember, so guys like Demps and Wilson get chances here. Etc., etc., etc.

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Hate on Reeves all you want (and I will) but he is probably the second best DB on our roster besides Eugene Wilson
That's about like boasting that you can limbo under the St. Louis Arch.
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Old 11-16-2008   #36
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Default Re: Chronicles Justice "quantifies" size of Smith & Kubiaks FA mistakes

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Originally Posted by eriadoc View Post
It's all relative. Guys like Bulman, Maddox, and Cochran get opportunities here because our other players suck. If Travis Johnson did anything to live up to his draft position, Maddox would never have seen the field. Heck, even Thomas Johnson made a few plays at DT a couple years ago, and I don't even think he's in the NFL anymore. If Weaver and/or Babin had lived up to expectations, Bulman and Cochran would never had seen time on the field. We've never spent a 1st day draft pick on a safety that I can remember, so guys like Demps and Wilson get chances here. Etc., etc., etc.



That's about like boasting that you can limbo under the St. Louis Arch.
Yep, Reeves is terrible and gets burned all the time. He actually occasionally makes a play though, which is different from Bennett and Faggins who usually just get burned all the time without making a play.
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Old 11-16-2008   #37
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Default Re: Chronicles Justice "quantifies" size of Smith & Kubiaks FA mistakes

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Yep, Reeves is terrible and gets burned all the time. He actually occasionally makes a play though, which is different from Bennett and Faggins who usually just get burned all the time without making a play.
I'd say Bennett makes about as many plays as Reeves, except Bennett gets less time on the field. But yeah, we have a collection of stiffs in the secondary.
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Old 11-16-2008   #38
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Default Re: Chronicles Justice "quantifies" size of Smith & Kubiaks FA mistakes

I got a question:

Why is Roosevelt Colvin thought of as a bad signing? So what he cost $850-K in cap space. Everyone agrees that the team needs a passrusher opposite Mario, and the team took a chance on a play who has had some success in that area. By most accounts, from what I recall reading on here, he was thought of as a good signing (not great). What would have been bad is if he was kept over Cochran or Bulman at this point by the way they are playing.

Every team signs guys like Colvin in hopes of improving the team and when they do not workout in training camp. Again the bad move would have been to keep him instead of releasing him and taking this minimal cap hit for one year and one year only.

P.S. Wes Welker was only a return guy with the Dolphins, so I am sure before last year that move looked like an oh well. Just because the player was a journeyman does not mean he is not a good decent player, he just may not have got his chance.
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Old 11-16-2008   #39
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Default Re: Chronicles Justice "quantifies" size of Smith & Kubiaks FA mistakes

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Originally Posted by Specnatz View Post
Why is Roosevelt Colvin thought of as a bad signing? So what he cost $850-K in cap space. Everyone agrees that the team needs a passrusher opposite Mario, and the team took a chance on a play who has had some success in that area. By most accounts, from what I recall reading on here, he was thought of as a good signing (not great). What would have been bad is if he was kept over Cochran or Bulman at this point by the way they are playing.
That's a good point. The real tragedy would have been keeping Colvin on the roster. Though some would say that signing Colvin kept the Texans from pursuing another pass rusher. I don't know if that's true or if their was a better option available. And really, a free agent signing of the reincarnation of Reggie White wouldn't have stopped this season from turning into a train wreck.
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Old 11-16-2008   #40
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Default Re: Chronicles Justice "quantifies" size of Smith & Kubiaks FA mistakes

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Originally Posted by The1ApplePie View Post
Yep, Reeves is terrible and gets burned all the time. He actually occasionally makes a play though, which is different from Bennett and Faggins who usually just get burned all the time without making a play.
I've noticed that seems to happen when he gets faked a little. Reeves has mad catch-up speed. If he would JUST stop worrying about losing the receiver and look for the ball (because this guy can catch back up anyway), he would be great (at least in pass coverage). It would make a HUGE difference for him and this team.

Can't SOMEBODY get that idea into his thick skull?
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