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Old 12-07-2008   #41
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones?

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Not saying they've been a waste but...if this staff really wants to nail its drafts we're going to have to stop using our 3rds on small school guys, that are really raw, and use them on guys who are polished but dropped into the third. I hate to think we have two good ST guys but passed on two starters elsewhere.
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Old 12-07-2008   #42
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones?

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Excuse me, but other than today, when has Jacoby put the ball on the ground? From reading previous posts, I get the impression that he fumbles a punt as many times as Rosenfels throws interceptions.

I don't get what someone else said, that he holds his breath everytime he catches a punt. Again, other than today, what's the reason why you'd feel that way?
Let me toss in some disclaimers before I answer this. First, I think we should keep Jacoby back there and let him work through his troubles. Second, I have no doubt that is what Kubiak is going to say and do. We don't have anyone nearly as explosive as him and he can just be so good when he gets the ball and guys aren't in his face.

Having said that he makes me nervous, and it has nothing to do with recent muffs. If there is a punt that is shorter than he anticipated he makes almost no attempt to come up and fair catch it. If he does come up its usually late and hurried and it finally caught up with him today. I don't know if he has problems judging the ball or its just a confidence issue but there is a ton of room for improvement there. We have lost a lot of field position on him avoiding making routine catches, there have also been some where he comes up charging and at the last moment sidesteps the ball, that stuff is scary.

The other obvious answer would be the end of last season and this pre-season where he was straight dropping balls. Those kind of impressions are hard to get out of your head when you see the ball as rarely as he does. I mean our defense has not been great about forcing punts until recently. Catching a punt is also something that most people view as routine. When he muffs its like hes missing a sac bunt or something. Harder to do than most probably realize but it just has to get done or the **it hits the fan. I still have hope because in the limited amount of punts he has returned he has been fantastic.
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Old 12-07-2008   #43
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones?

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Yeah cause West Virginia is just like Eastern Kentucky and Lane College respectively. Steve was also no where near as raw as either Jones or Molden and has played in a BCS conference and a BCS bowl.

Steve was pretty polished but just dropped into the third.
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Old 12-08-2008   #44
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones?

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Yeah cause West Virginia is just like Eastern Kentucky and Lane College respectively. Steve was also no where near as raw as either Jones or Molden and has played in a BCS conference and a BCS bowl.

Steve was pretty polished but just dropped into the third.
I think that was the point that Marcus was trying to make, that our coaches don't just throw third round picks at small school guys, and Slaton is a prime example of a third round pick on a big school guy.

In my mind, Jacoby's rewards are higher than his risks. No punt returner's hands are fool-proof. It is exactly like our defense; you can minimize risks by not blitzing or jumping passes, but then you also minimize your chance for making plays. Jacoby has made plays this season, and that, in my mind, is worth some risk. I would also suggest that it is another lesson learned for him.
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Old 12-08-2008   #45
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones?

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Let me toss in some disclaimers before I answer this. First, I think we should keep Jacoby back there and let him work through his troubles. Second, I have no doubt that is what Kubiak is going to say and do. We don't have anyone nearly as explosive as him and he can just be so good when he gets the ball and guys aren't in his face.

Having said that he makes me nervous, and it has nothing to do with recent muffs. If there is a punt that is shorter than he anticipated he makes almost no attempt to come up and fair catch it. If he does come up its usually late and hurried and it finally caught up with him today. I don't know if he has problems judging the ball or its just a confidence issue but there is a ton of room for improvement there. We have lost a lot of field position on him avoiding making routine catches, there have also been some where he comes up charging and at the last moment sidesteps the ball, that stuff is scary.

The other obvious answer would be the end of last season and this pre-season where he was straight dropping balls. Those kind of impressions are hard to get out of your head when you see the ball as rarely as he does. I mean our defense has not been great about forcing punts until recently. Catching a punt is also something that most people view as routine. When he muffs its like hes missing a sac bunt or something. Harder to do than most probably realize but it just has to get done or the **it hits the fan. I still have hope because in the limited amount of punts he has returned he has been fantastic.

As a side note, my six year old started crying when JJ fumbled the punt! I had to send him to another room to watch sponge bob and stop crying. You would not believe the joy on his face when Kris Brown nailed the game winner.
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Old 12-08-2008   #46
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones?

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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
Excuse me, but other than today, when has Jacoby put the ball on the ground? From reading previous posts, I get the impression that he fumbles a punt as many times as Rosenfels throws interceptions.

I don't get what someone else said, that he holds his breath everytime he catches a punt. Again, other than today, what's the reason why you'd feel that way?
I'm old, sometimes I remember things that never happened, sometimes I forget things that did, but, wasn't Jacoby responsible for a few screw ups in Pre-Season that had the coaching staff have him carrying a ball around like it was his child during training camp?
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Old 12-08-2008   #47
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones?

Semi-interesting thing that came up in my Chron.com game preview. This was written by a Packer fan friend of mine:

Quote:
3. We signed a punter!!! Didn't have one until late Wednesday. Jeremy Kapinos is the dude. He's left-footed, which allegedly makes it harder to catch the punt because the spin is different.
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Old 12-08-2008   #48
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones?

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Originally Posted by BuffaloglennTX View Post
I think that was the point that Marcus was trying to make, that our coaches don't just throw third round picks at small school guys, and Slaton is a prime example of a third round pick on a big school guy.

In my mind, Jacoby's rewards are higher than his risks. No punt returner's hands are fool-proof. It is exactly like our defense; you can minimize risks by not blitzing or jumping passes, but then you also minimize your chance for making plays. Jacoby has made plays this season, and that, in my mind, is worth some risk. I would also suggest that it is another lesson learned for him.
I'm aware that we have chosen big school guys with our third round pick and Slaton is the current prime example. Erick Winston is another. However, we've also tagged a few other good players a round later OD, Fred Bennett and this year's example Xavier Adibi that are big school guys that fell.

My point is as much as i Love Jacoby's upside, I'm just not sure we'll fully see it HERE. It's great having a PR ace but it's becoming questionable if he can carry out those duties without fumbling or show signs of life as our 3rd or 4th WR. I hate to think the same thing with Molden. Guy looks great on ST but something, whether it is the staff or him making the transition to the pros, is keeping him from even cracking the CB rotation. I'm not saying it is a blown pick because it's way to early to tell.

My point is this team can't keep picking on sheer potential and hope it pans out in a year or two. Once we have enough talent ( and a full coaching staff on the defensive side of he ball) we can afford to make those kind of picks. In the mean time we have to cross our fingers and hope they pick it up quick as possible.
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Old 12-08-2008   #49
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones?

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Originally Posted by Goldensilence View Post
I'm aware that we have chosen big school guys with our third round pick and Slaton is the current prime example. Erick Winston is another. However, we've also tagged a few other good players a round later OD, Fred Bennett and this year's example Xavier Adibi that are big school guys that fell.

My point is as much as i Love Jacoby's upside, I'm just not sure we'll fully see it HERE. It's great having a PR ace but it's becoming questionable if he can carry out those duties without fumbling or show signs of life as our 3rd or 4th WR. I hate to think the same thing with Molden. Guy looks great on ST but something, whether it is the staff or him making the transition to the pros, is keeping him from even cracking the CB rotation. I'm not saying it is a blown pick because it's way to early to tell.

My point is this team can't keep picking on sheer potential and hope it pans out in a year or two. Once we have enough talent ( and a full coaching staff on the defensive side of he ball) we can afford to make those kind of picks. In the mean time we have to cross our fingers and hope they pick it up quick as possible.

I have no problem with the Molden pick, he's not cracking the rotation, because he's a 3rd round rookie. You speak of Xavier, but he just now cracked the rotation as a 4th round rookie only because of injury........look at Barber, he's getting burn due to injuries also. Hell it even took Bennett (a big school guy) awhile to beat out a crappy Faggins, which tells me that our coaching staff has a glaring problem indentifying the talent on their own team.......they seem to be joined at the hip to their incumbent starters.

Rarely can you find CBs as physically gifted as Molden that far down in the draft, the only one more gifted in his draft was Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie and it wasn't by much. (who also came from a small school, but he was a first round pick so he's going to start in his first year). Everytime Molden gets a chance he makes plays, he was making plays in preseason and I see him involved on damn near every tackle on STs..(which this year have been shaking, but we've been spoiled with coach Joe)......he's saved our ass a couple of times and has probably prevented some scores.

The problem here isn't the "small school" guys (really you can find 1st round talent in the bottom rounds that just fell because they went to a small school) There have been PLENTY of players drafted out of small schools that have no problem making the transition in the NFL. The problem here is that Jacoby Jones just isn't very smart......his head is soft, you can just tell by listening to him. Jacoby Jones has all the talent in the world, but the kid is just dumb as rocks. He's just "that guy" who will make a great play and then leave you scratching your head next week.
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Old 12-08-2008   #50
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones?

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Originally Posted by BuffaloglennTX View Post
I think that was the point that Marcus was trying to make, that our coaches don't just throw third round picks at small school guys, and Slaton is a prime example of a third round pick on a big school guy.

In my mind, Jacoby's rewards are higher than his risks. No punt returner's hands are fool-proof. It is exactly like our defense; you can minimize risks by not blitzing or jumping passes, but then you also minimize your chance for making plays. Jacoby has made plays this season, and that, in my mind, is worth some risk. I would also suggest that it is another lesson learned for him.
We have constantly. 2 of 3 years we have done it. Winston, Slaton and Spencer were bigger school guys. JJ and Moulden are tiny school guys. We are bad about the raw project guys.

Its not JJ's hands, its his brain that scares me. He makes more bone head ***** mistakes back here than alot of people.
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Old 12-08-2008   #51
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones?

Man, I was so pissed at JJ the jackrabbit for trying to hop up and catch that ball. Fortunately, it didn't matter in the end.

I like his upside, and I have no desire to see him gone, but dude needs to mature and settle down. He just looks like he's already thinking about running before he's caught the ball. He needs to learn the art of the fair catch and accept the reality that he won't be able to return every punt he catches.

I think he will, though. We've got a great special teams coach, so it's just a matter of time before he finally figures it all out and becomes one of the best return men in football.
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Old 12-08-2008   #52
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones?

Just for perspective--Hester had two muffed punts yesterday.
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Old 12-08-2008   #53
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones?

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Just for perspective--Hester had two muffed punts yesterday.
clearly there is more to returning punts than realized
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Old 12-08-2008   #54
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones?

I am a big JJ fan but his focus seems to be on the spectacular play rather than securing the ball and then heading down field. Part of that is what makes him who he is and gives the potential for 6 points.
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Old 12-08-2008   #55
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones?

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I have no problem with the Molden pick, he's not cracking the rotation, because he's a 3rd round rookie. You speak of Xavier, but he just now cracked the rotation as a 4th round rookie only because of injury........look at Barber, he's getting burn due to injuries also. Hell it even took Bennett (a big school guy) awhile to beat out a crappy Faggins, which tells me that our coaching staff has a glaring problem indentifying the talent on their own team.......they seem to be joined at the hip to their incumbent starters.

Rarely can you find CBs as physically gifted as Molden that far down in the draft, the only one more gifted in his draft was Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie and it wasn't by much. (who also came from a small school, but he was a first round pick so he's going to start in his first year). Everytime Molden gets a chance he makes plays, he was making plays in preseason and I see him involved on damn near every tackle on STs..(which this year have been shaking, but we've been spoiled with coach Joe)......he's saved our ass a couple of times and has probably prevented some scores.

The problem here isn't the "small school" guys (really you can find 1st round talent in the bottom rounds that just fell because they went to a small school) There have been PLENTY of players drafted out of small schools that have no problem making the transition in the NFL. The problem here is that Jacoby Jones just isn't very smart......his head is soft, you can just tell by listening to him. Jacoby Jones has all the talent in the world, but the kid is just dumb as rocks. He's just "that guy" who will make a great play and then leave you scratching your head next week.
I'm not questioning the talent of both JJ or Molden. I think you nailed a bit of my concern with bold part of your post.

What concerns me is looking at our roster and the holes we need to fill NOW I don't know if I, myself could justify taking guys that are raw but have the potential down the road. I agree that Jacoby has a the talent to be special but does he have the brains and work ethic to go along? AJ is the complete package at WR, KW has great hands and runs good routes and while I like David Anderson's hands and routes as well we need a guy that can allow us to take a deep shot. Jones needs to develop into that guy and I'm just not sure he will HERE.

I won't argue on Molden's potential and what he showed in TC problem is like you pointed out about this staff and their starters. I know we took him in mind with Dunta's injury and he'd have roughly at least half a year to develop. What bothers me is other guys on the board at the time that had a good chance to come in and solidify our secondary like Thomas Decoud or Dejuan Morgan.

I love how our staff isn't afraid to gamble on some high potential guys and some guys whose work ethic alone gets them in. The problem that is starting to develop is passing on the guys in between and relying on mediocre starters for too long when they get scared to put each of those polar opposites in the game.
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Old 12-08-2008   #56
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Default Re: Jacoby Jones?

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He needs to learn the art of the fair catch and accept the reality that he won't be able to return every punt he catches.
that x 1000!!!

Just wave the hand, catch it.

I still see no point in not letting him off the bench to play WR. He must be crap in practice or spending too much time practicing kick returns. 1 deep route a game is too much for him?
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